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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Large scale Teleportation and sumoning restriction for clases. (EDIT: on numbers, not distances)
Alsop
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
From the point of view of an mmo, with an active pvp and a player-driven economy, the advantage that teleportation provides makes a big difference to the game experience, it is a very powerful tool to avoid dangers or simply save a lot of time. Teleportation should exist, but the way in which it is controlled is not to my liking.
In my opinion teleportation and summoning should be abilities tied to a skill, an ability contained by combining two classes, that improves as you use it and level up.
For example teleportation could be the signature skill of the Archwizard, appearing in his list when acquiring the second class, at first he could only use it to teleport himself a few hundred meters with a more or less reduced CD, and as he levels up and can increase the CD and distance, but to fully improve the skill he should make use of it, eventually developing a skill that can teleport a small group of people to a great distance.There we have a problem, since you can teleport people to other location and let them do safer and faster trading. ¿ Why dont we add a resource bar called arcanum, the source of magic that fuels the teleport and give items on the players a value. The more valuable the more arcana it consumes, making tradable items wasting a lot of arcana, taking aside the equipped/attuned items? you can increase the consumption of arcana based on distrance too, and number of players.(just to prevent a player teleporting with lots of selling goods)
We could do the same with the summoning, a signature skill of the conjurer. Unlocked when he chose hes second class, at first he will only be able to summon people he knows (we could look at a system to see which players are in party with him most often.) and at short distances. Through levels and constant use he can increase the range and reduce the CD or even have independent charges so that he can summon someone every 12-20 minutes but if he hasn't summoned anyone in 1 hour he could have 3-4 summoning charges. The variations on skills like these are endless.
Now for example we could follow up with another random class, for example the assassin, it's a bit different class (nobody likes to have melee dps near tanks). Why not give him signatiure spell too? I know some of you will say to give him an ability that does much more damage (STONKS). But not today, im looking for a unique utility skill on every class , just 1 and just for utility. What if we give the assassin a skill that is both active and passive, a passive to detect traps in dungeons, and when activated can highlight secret entrances or hidden levers or even secret activables in the rooms of the boses that would help us keep the boss at bay, for example in a final dungeon against a giant orc the rogue's skill could highlight an area on the map and when pressed the highlighted area drops a giant lamp from the ceiling that causes massive damage to the boss and stun him briefly, or even prevent some attacks of the bost or creates an area where the party can be safe when the boss deals an area skill, making the assasin a class usefull on the party and not only a guy doing dps.
I would like to see what others think and give ideas. Shomething like a shadowmancer signature skill that alow him to use his shadow as a clone and walk with him to see whats on the next stance of the dungeon without pulling.
Sorry btw this is my first time ever posting a discussion on english
In my opinion teleportation and summoning should be abilities tied to a skill, an ability contained by combining two classes, that improves as you use it and level up.
For example teleportation could be the signature skill of the Archwizard, appearing in his list when acquiring the second class, at first he could only use it to teleport himself a few hundred meters with a more or less reduced CD, and as he levels up and can increase the CD and distance, but to fully improve the skill he should make use of it, eventually developing a skill that can teleport a small group of people to a great distance.There we have a problem, since you can teleport people to other location and let them do safer and faster trading. ¿ Why dont we add a resource bar called arcanum, the source of magic that fuels the teleport and give items on the players a value. The more valuable the more arcana it consumes, making tradable items wasting a lot of arcana, taking aside the equipped/attuned items? you can increase the consumption of arcana based on distrance too, and number of players.(just to prevent a player teleporting with lots of selling goods)
We could do the same with the summoning, a signature skill of the conjurer. Unlocked when he chose hes second class, at first he will only be able to summon people he knows (we could look at a system to see which players are in party with him most often.) and at short distances. Through levels and constant use he can increase the range and reduce the CD or even have independent charges so that he can summon someone every 12-20 minutes but if he hasn't summoned anyone in 1 hour he could have 3-4 summoning charges. The variations on skills like these are endless.
Now for example we could follow up with another random class, for example the assassin, it's a bit different class (nobody likes to have melee dps near tanks). Why not give him signatiure spell too? I know some of you will say to give him an ability that does much more damage (STONKS). But not today, im looking for a unique utility skill on every class , just 1 and just for utility. What if we give the assassin a skill that is both active and passive, a passive to detect traps in dungeons, and when activated can highlight secret entrances or hidden levers or even secret activables in the rooms of the boses that would help us keep the boss at bay, for example in a final dungeon against a giant orc the rogue's skill could highlight an area on the map and when pressed the highlighted area drops a giant lamp from the ceiling that causes massive damage to the boss and stun him briefly, or even prevent some attacks of the bost or creates an area where the party can be safe when the boss deals an area skill, making the assasin a class usefull on the party and not only a guy doing dps.
I would like to see what others think and give ideas. Shomething like a shadowmancer signature skill that alow him to use his shadow as a clone and walk with him to see whats on the next stance of the dungeon without pulling.
Sorry btw this is my first time ever posting a discussion on english
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Comments
Every archetype is supposed to have it's own unique ability(finding traps, hidden doors..ect). We have only seen a couple from way early in the PAX videos. Hopefully they make it in game.
Your wording was good don't sweat it. We have a lot of English as a second or third language that communicate better then some that only know English.
Be mindful this was 2017.
For general skills, no. But, in the case of a wherever-you-want-around-the-world teleport, yeah. Restricting it to one archetype would mean that 80-90% of players chose that archetype.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
The only thing I would change with the current system is give the summoned player a CD so they can't summoned again for a short time after they are summoned.
We can but hope!
There will be fast travel in between scientific metros i think and the family system to an extent, but it's not mass travel and there will not be any for a reason.
I mean, family summon is already ridiculously OP, and it will basically be a requirement to have 8 alts at strategic locations, or good guilds will have a network of family members in order to even be close to optimal gameplay.
This is why I like my suggestion for having a CD on the summoned character so they can't be summoned again for like an hour. this would prevent me from summoning with an alt then having an alt at my original location to summon me back. But, this won't solve the problem I think you are talking about.
I dont think so, if you put a teleport on Mage+Mage you think 80% of the comunity will play mage+mage instead of other 63 combinations? its a big sacrifice just for a teleport ¿if you dont want them to abuse of fast trade, increase value (in terms of resource consumption) to tradable items to make the user unable to teleport a huge amount of tradable items, like albion does with fast travel, Put a CD of 2 hours to the teleport, and i think very few people will take that.
when i meant signature skills, i wanted skills that give you advantage in some way, not direct profit. Everything can be balanced, on the end its a signature spell that does not affect combat, so nerf it when needed wont change your gameplay experience too much
PD: I will remember this cause i feel no one undestarnded, im not talking of masive teleports that can cross the map, im talking of teleport that at maximum level it can at most move a single person an equivalent distance from the center of one node to the center of the next. more people=less range. More weigth on your=less range again. with high CD
I am against the whole teleport thing.
How ever it doesn't work that way in other games. Wow(old and classic) and EQ it is restricted to certain classes and they still only have certain small population of player's.
maaaaan I miss that sexy third person camera
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That's the "perfect" answer lol.
I'll pray that the Vatican priests don't find you.
Arigato my friend.
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I am tempted to lean towards the usefulness of a hearthstone of sorts. HUGE cooldown but it would be nice to be able to raid late into the night and then hearth to go to sleep rather than have to then run back. With that though, where is the line drawn between convenience and being too convenient?
@Kionashi you can decide yourself how far you want to zome out though. Pretty sure he already showed the range from right behind your character to super zoomed out. It's your choice which distance you utilize though.
Having continuous teleport chain abilities over shorter distances to me seems like it would cause unnecessary chaos and speed to the combat system and graphical effects. Imagine seeing a group of 20-50+ players using the same build and just teleporting around in combat or the environment trolling other players.
They are interesting idea's, but from what I have gathered from the game content videos I have caught up on recently, not entirely sure they fit their current design for this type of game and scale of combat.
That can happen with literaky every AOE skill, imagine a group of 30-40 players turning to make a constant use of black holes or ice AOE magic, turning the combat area on a masive junk of croud controll, even worst, imagine them being tanks doing CC AOE.
Suddenly coordinating lots of people has been done easy.
Let's hope we have no Teleport at all, and just fast travel between metros (scientific ones).
true, I am not saying the ability idea's are not bad or anything, but we are talking about two different mechanics. The cc's can be handled with diminishing returns, resistances and more than likely wont stack as that would break pvp and pve in the combat system. Not much countering in combat that can counter mass teleporting or chain teleporting abilities.
teleporting groups of players across the world would make the vast immersive land created to conquest feel smaller and traversed relatively faster than it should be. This would negate the purpose of caravans as players would try to cheese the system by moving resources faster and bypassing the caravans purpose in some way or another. Players will find a way to cheese.
additionally with causing the world to feel smaller by traversing it faster than the purpose of mounts and their movement speed already, people would find a way to create toxic situations in pvp and pve. On top of that, eventually you could have players complaining about cool downs and wanting it nerfed or improved by giving them option to which would in turn cause imbalance issues in the games design.
In regards to the traps in the dungeon for the assassin, it is an interesting idea. I think they already have intentions for traps and detection for the archetype/class. Not sure how the triggering of the object to fall on a bosses head would work in terms of immersion/balance though or if a boss can be stunned that easily. Setting up and utilizing traps in open world and in node combat could be really cool to see. This could improve node defence options as well as strategy to offence.
I will try to use Albion as an example because it also has open pvp in several zones and is mostly based on territory control and trade. Even when the economy of the game is heavily based on trade, there are teleports that can send you from one capital to another jumping 3-4 territories over without any problem, that in theory should break the economy, but the funny thing is that it can not do it because the items have a value anchored to the market, the more expensive the item is the more expensive it is to teleport between cities, and the further away the city is the more expensive it is.If the fear is that people are going to abuse the system, buying items in a city, teleporting to another and selling, you can simply add a value to the tradeable items that makes it impossible to teleport if it is not at a very high cost.
As for the distances, we still don't know the final size of the ashes map but even so let's assume for convenience that there are 1000 meters between two cities (I think it is short anyway), and let's say that the maximum level of a teleport allows you to travel 500 meters (which is a lot), you would need two people to get from one city to another. You need two people to move from one city to another instantly without being able to carry a lot of tradeable items because it is already balanced in advance. And also when you do it you will have a CD of two hours.
We can balance it more, given that the maximum range is 500, if you want to teleport another person besides yourself the range decreases to 400 meters. Now you need 3 people to get from city to city, but of course they are 3, not two, the range is reduced again to 300. In the end you can't get from city to city with three people. We could set a minimum range limit of 200 meters and a people limit of 5+cast. Remember without an absurd amount of tradeable items and with a CD of 2 hours. And if you want you can put a 1 minute casting time.
This would leave the ability simply as a momentary help that could be used for example in a dungeon to avoid a fall into the void and enter a hidden area that can only be reached by teleporting to that side. Or climbing an area with a steep vertical slope such as a mountain very fast.
In my opinion the hearthstone that so many people like is what really breaks the experience, I understand that many people want to go on a raid, finish it, use the hearthstone and get back from it all.But it is possibly the worst teleport mechanic that exists, you enter a dungeon with your empty equipment, level up, farm, you end up full of loot and you take a stone and you leave, there is no risk of dying on the way back, no risk of monsters respawning, no risk of pvp or dropping any item you got in the dungeon, just completely destroys the experience of an open world, and depending on where you have the hearthstone you can skip half the map in a few seconds.
interesting, never played Albion.
I do know there is talk of some sort of teleportation between scientific nodes at higher development stages. Each node type will have its own advantages and disadvantages.
In regards to taxing players based on distance and items, not entirely sure how I feel about it at first impressions. I think it was stated on the wiki that the world is about 480 km squared with an additional 100 km squared for the under realm but not sure on how the actual in-game reference to what a metre is.
I honestly feel that teleportation mechanics have a high risk of breaking the game mechanics, especially when caravans and their intended conflict of interest purpose are used to encourage the players to escort and raid during transportation of items especially with a weight mechanic.
To be honest, flying mounts and hearth stones really did a number on a game like world of warcraft by allowing to fast travel around and create a feeling of a smaller world. Mage portals and summoning just encouraged that perspective even more until the game became an empty feeling amongst the community by just allowing people to queue and have minimal interactions in a social aspect compared to what it was in vanilla, chocolate and strawberry... (ice cream citadel joke
WoW was and has been a more PvE Raiding and Dungeon game first allowing players to experience that immersion from their RTS story precursors with PvP mechanics to scratch an itch on players immersive nostalgia of Horde vs Alliance, especially in the earlier years which gave them their founding fan base. But, I am not here to talk about wow and their design choices over the years.
I believe if you're not willing to traverse the terrain accordingly, why be rewarded with shortcuts to be abused and create toxic situations of cheesing the mechanics, and/or unnecessary diversion of mechanics intended for how the game is meant to be played.
Interested to see how the air ships between the scientific nodes(IIRC) will play out as well. that should be more than mechanics for "fast travelling"
even the family summoning has a potential to be abused until further information is provided.
I posted it in another thread but essentially, you could have a family of up 8 apparently which could allow you to have 1-2 family members each in a party or raid, split them up and multiply the size of the raid by 6-7 times if each family has that many participants. This would cause backdooring mechanics that could cause some serious cheese (again, not sure on the full mechanic with design and conditions yet).
Players will find a way, lol.
Will have to see how the "hearth" mechanic plays out as well with it's conditions and design as well
But what if those shotcuts are made on purpose? A hiden path to the under realm that can only be opened by scouts ,scions or beastmasters. A door made by dwarves in the mountains which guides you through a cave that crosses the mountain in the middle.
TBH, I will spend 70% of my time trying to Gather, Refina and Craft to develop a Scientific node with a summoner or a cleric, so 80% of what im talking about wont afect me, buth i realy think that there is a way of making this game something diferent and not just a "Walk from here to there and get this" or "Go tho this dungeon and kill this mob 1892798127129 times to get this and hand it to a crafter to bla bla bla". It may sound imposible but i really hope for every node to get a diferent vive based on your class selection
I understand those intentions are meant to be in the game already. I'm not talking about small scale blinks/teleporting or obstacles with similar mechanics to traverse them. I'm talking about larger scale as the thread implies.
It's going to be very interesting to see the world develop through node choices and similar features involved.
Seeing those creations from the ashes of war and calamity
Yes, well now that you say it I realize that the title can lead to misunderstandings, with large scale I meant the amount of people that you can teleport more than the distance, not the average portal but a magic circle on the floor that teleports people inside them.
That would explain why people were so insistent on guiding the topic to teleport between nodes
lol, that could be why, plus from what i've gathered, there seem to be quite a few similar threads popping up about similar things.
To be fair, I think a couple hundred meter teleport is still relatively large based on your Albion example. There are many great idea's that are shared and discussed in communities, but things to keep in mind are how they will effect the core mechanics of the games design intended for how the game is relatively meant to be played.
There needs to be a good balance and conditions involved to ensure certain mechanics are not abused and bypassed causing detrimental issues to the core mechanics.
I do look forward to seeing further explanations on node to node transportation options as well as combat/traversing mechanics and abilities.
you did say in the beginning
"Sorry btw this is my first time ever posting a discussion on english"
I especially liked seeing the ranger named ranger, the mage named mage, the cleric named cleric and you wouldn`t believe it, a tank named tank!
Boo, there goes all my character name choices!