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What would make a perfect endgame?

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Comments

  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Reliquary Sets!!

    Completing a set of artifacts for your node's reliquary crowns your Mayor with exclusive abilities that threaten other nodes.

    So what happens?
    Backstabbing/Civil War <--- infighting to become the mayor
    All nodes launch a united attack against this node <--- Nobody should have this much power

    Imagine Nagash rules your neighbouring metropolis and has collected Atrax's Staff, Crown and Chalice.
    Your metropolis holds the Sword. You contact every other node on the server to stop Nagash raiding your metropolis for the last Relic - nobody else lifts a finger.
    Nagash burns your city to the ground, retrieves the sword and is crowned the Immortal Lich of Verra. His metropolis turns into a Necropolis, guarded by ancients.
    Other nodes across Verra notice that their resources are drying up inexplicably.
    Caravans of undead keep spawning, transporting goods taken from each nodes' treasuries to the Necropolis.
    The only way to stop this is permanently is to destroy the Necropolis.

    The game has only just begun...
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Oh well... If the end game is anywhere close to what it is in most MMOs, I guess I'll make alts one after the other. Unless the PvP turns out to be really fun for me.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • Fun
  • Healthy economy/Crafting, Politics, open world pvp/pve content with great reward but great risk and that risk can´t be just dying , something like lose your things, that will keep crafting and demanding relevant
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    McMackMuck wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    90% of servers will have 90% of the top end raid encounters killed by one guild.

    Is this your opinion?
    I'm not countering it because I don't have any data to counter with.
    I was just wondering what the source of this information is?

    It is my experience based on games with similar open world content.

    Picture it this way. Imagine you are running a guild that is full of top end players. The game you are playing has a specific number of encounters that drop the best loot in the game. You know when and where they will spawn.

    Based on that, do you have any reason as to why you and your guild wouldn't be ready and waiting for these encounters to spawn? There is literally nothing better you can do with your time.

    Now imagine you have killed them for the first 4 or 5 spawn cycles (your guild is top end, you were the first people to the level cap). You have this advantage over the rest of the server, and all you need to do to keep that advantage (and indeed extend it) is not allow other guilds to kill these mobs.

    The players in your guild are happy to do that, as they like the advantage they have. What reason would you then have for not holding on to that advantage?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Javionn wrote: »

    Unless your guild is full of just friends/family that you trust and know that they won’t screw you over.
    This is very much the case.

    Our guild will not have more than 50 players in it, and 35 of those I have been running top end content with for 17 years.

    Top end guilds are not exactly prone to spying.

    Also, it is fairly standard that if you sell a piece of raid loot, you are out of the guild. This is standard in games without PvP, so in games with it, the rule just becomes more important.

    The only thing left is if we lose an item via corruption, but we have systems in place to prevent that - depending on how the system goes live.
  • Essentially after Campaign content. This is content in the game that doesn't necessarily upgrade your character, and if it does it would be a marginal increase, but regardless will still reward the player with achievements or cosmetics. Typically this content would also be extremely difficult that would either require skill or a niche set of builds and compositions in order to complete.

    Also good PVP would help as well since the replay-ability in PVP is potentially endless.
  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited March 2021
    I don't find playing real state or politics engaging.

    I hope guilds dedicated to fighting can play a good role on endgame, such a guarding open world bosses or getting hired to protect nodes.
    I'd like exploring the world and the people of the world while learning how to fight so I know what I want to fight for at the end.
  • JavionnJavionn Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Javionn wrote: »

    Unless your guild is full of just friends/family that you trust and know that they won’t screw you over.
    This is very much the case.

    Our guild will not have more than 50 players in it, and 35 of those I have been running top end content with for 17 years.

    Top end guilds are not exactly prone to spying.

    Also, it is fairly standard that if you sell a piece of raid loot, you are out of the guild. This is standard in games without PvP, so in games with it, the rule just becomes more important.

    The only thing left is if we lose an item via corruption, but we have systems in place to prevent that - depending on how the system goes live.

    So basically you’re saying that the game is gonna be a race to monopolization... but you gotta realize if you’re in best gear that’s more of a reason for a server to come together to wipe you out so they can achieve that same gear. That’ll be fun. I’d like to see it
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Javionn wrote: »
    So basically you’re saying that the game is gonna be a race to monopolization.
    I'm saying top end open world content is.

    While it is fun to think that the rest of the server would come together to stop you, this isn't really something that actually happens.

    The best thing players can ask for is that the developers place limitations on how much content can be monopolized, and how much more powerful the people that monopolize that content can get.
  • JavionnJavionn Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Javionn wrote: »
    So basically you’re saying that the game is gonna be a race to monopolization.
    I'm saying top end open world content is.

    While it is fun to think that the rest of the server would come together to stop you, this isn't really something that actually happens.

    The best thing players can ask for is that the developers place limitations on how much content can be monopolized, and how much more powerful the people that monopolize that content can get.

    With a game that’s solely focusing on traveling on foot and limited fast travel, I’m positive that there will be some sort of server event that would lead to “KoS if you see these guys.” You’re right it’s almost unlikely for a server to do this but if they’re focusing on social interaction I can safely say that people will do this. You’re gonna have guilds come together for a one time thing you’re gonna have people talk about you, you will build a bad reputation as a guild which will lead to something like that, Atleast that’s what I’d expect. If It was me, I would be talking to guild leaders and random people I see on the roads to come for that guild that takes the fun away from us.. but that’s only my assumptions and ideas.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Javionn wrote: »
    With a game that’s solely focusing on traveling on foot and limited fast travel, I’m positive that there will be some sort of server event that would lead to “KoS if you see these guys.” You’re right it’s almost unlikely for a server to do this but if they’re focusing on social interaction I can safely say that people will do this. You’re gonna have guilds come together for a one time thing you’re gonna have people talk about you, you will build a bad reputation as a guild which will lead to something like that, Atleast that’s what I’d expect. If It was me, I would be talking to guild leaders and random people I see on the roads to come for that guild that takes the fun away from us.. but that’s only my assumptions and ideas.
    That isn't going to happen, because of the lack of fast travel.

    If me and my guild were forced to travel by foot/mount, and everyone else was able to port around, then I could see the possibility of an attempt at this. A slim possibility, but a possibility nontheless.

    However, with these people wanting to chase us down also not having fast travel, I can't see them even bothering. This is especially true when you consider that the content we would have a monopoly on is the only non-node means of gaining a flying mount.

    I can see some people attempting to stop us at the content itself, this will happen basially every spawn. However, the closest thing they can have to success is if the encounters have a despawn mechanic and they are able to stop us getting a kill.

    However, since by that point our goal would be preventing others getting the rewards, rather than getting them for ourselves, we would consider that a win for us.
  • OstaffOstaff Member, Alpha Two
    Yearly expansions.
    5 lv cap increase
    New/rebalanced abilities
    New gear tier
    New epic world boss
    New zones
    New raid bosses
    1-2 new instanced content
    New siegable castle

    One grand, new system every 2 years


    I agree with Vhaeyne, I hate level increase creap. Instead they should do a more horizontal move in that they open up brand new zones the make your old skills mostly useless and causing you to learn new skills to do well in that zone. Ie. New damage types that need new types of resistances and mobs have immunities or high resistances to other zones damage types. Magics debuffs and etc. So in a simple example, a Lava zone that greatly reduces all "water" based damage, and most the creatures are basically immune to fire damage, its lava not water so water mounts and ships that were previously used are worthless they will need to supply themselves with lava resistant ships. The mobs deal "lava" damage so players will need to outfit themselves with lava resistant apparel and maybe "earth" type damage for injuring the creatures? As I said, this is a very simple example, but hopefully you can see where I am trying to take it :)

    Make your elite uber level character feel like a newbie again without actually hindering all the other players in the other zones, keeping "item" degeneration that reduces the value of "older" items out of the ball game cause the items needed in the new world really don't hinder the items from the older zones as they are just "different" not "more powerful".
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Ostaff wrote: »
    I agree with Vhaeyne, I hate level increase creap. Instead they should do a more horizontal move in that they open up brand new zones the make your old skills mostly useless and causing you to learn new skills to do well in that zone. Ie. New damage types that need new types of resistances and mobs have immunities or high resistances to other zones damage types.
    How is this any different to adding horizontal progression?

    I mean, in both cases your old abilities are just as strong on the old content, but not effective on the new content. In both cases you need to learn new abilities to be able to take on the content, and you need to acquire new gear in order to be able to survive against it.

    I mean, you are literally saying you want virtival progression, you just don't want it to be called that.
    Ostaff wrote: »
    Make your elite uber level character feel like a newbie again without actually hindering all the other players in the other zones, keeping "item" degeneration that reduces the value of "older" items out of the ball game

    This isn't a consequence of vertical progression, it is a consequence of shit developers.

    I agree that I don't want this either. That is why I don't play games made by shit developers.
  • JavionnJavionn Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Javionn wrote: »
    With a game that’s solely focusing on traveling on foot and limited fast travel, I’m positive that there will be some sort of server event that would lead to “KoS if you see these guys.” You’re right it’s almost unlikely for a server to do this but if they’re focusing on social interaction I can safely say that people will do this. You’re gonna have guilds come together for a one time thing you’re gonna have people talk about you, you will build a bad reputation as a guild which will lead to something like that, Atleast that’s what I’d expect. If It was me, I would be talking to guild leaders and random people I see on the roads to come for that guild that takes the fun away from us.. but that’s only my assumptions and ideas.
    That isn't going to happen, because of the lack of fast travel.

    If me and my guild were forced to travel by foot/mount, and everyone else was able to port around, then I could see the possibility of an attempt at this. A slim possibility, but a possibility nontheless.

    However, with these people wanting to chase us down also not having fast travel, I can't see them even bothering. This is especially true when you consider that the content we would have a monopoly on is the only non-node means of gaining a flying mount.

    I can see some people attempting to stop us at the content itself, this will happen basially every spawn. However, the closest thing they can have to success is if the encounters have a despawn mechanic and they are able to stop us getting a kill.

    However, since by that point our goal would be preventing others getting the rewards, rather than getting them for ourselves, we would consider that a win for us.

    I’m willing to give this a go in the server I play regardless of the ups and downs. I like challenges and this will only make me want to bring you down even more 😆so whatever happens I’m willing to try for the hell of it.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Javionn wrote: »
    I’m willing to give this a go in the server I play regardless of the ups and downs. I like challenges and this will only make me want to bring you down even more 😆so whatever happens I’m willing to try for the hell of it.
    Oh, there are always a few people willing to give it a go, and some of them even actually do give it a go.

    The thing is, you need dozens, if not hundreds of people. More to the point, you need them at the exact right time. If you are 10 minutes late getting there, we are gone.

    I've yet to see the level of organization needed to pull this off exist outside of a guild. More power to you if you pull it off, but in the mean time it would perhaps be in your best interests to agree with me that it would be good if the people you were wanting to fight like this were only able to get one tier of gear above everyone else, not two tiers.
  • This might sound like a bit of a broken record (since i have mentioned parts of this in various other threads) but.....

    1) NO level cap increase. Once you get to 50 (or whatever the cap is) it will stay there. Period. I find it absolutely silly that every year or so you completely render all that hard earned gear useless, forcing you to go get the same shit again only better in dungeons that are artificially created just to hold this new gear. WoW is a prime example of this and was ultimately what made me quit playing.

    I would much rather have all those same endgame dungeons ALWAYS be a challenge.

    2) Have a lateral progression system after reaching cap level similar to DAoC, WAR or ESO. ESO has a much more robust system than the other two called the Champion system .

    These passive abilities are small but over time can increase your skills significantly. Maybe enough to equal 1-2 actual levels but not enough to render endgame content trivial. So having a lot of points invested in lateral progression could help make that endgame content a bit easier but that's it.

    3) Have something worth fighting for. In DAoC it was a place called Darkness Falls. If you controlled the RvR map, your realm gained access to DF, a deep dungeon filled with the best stuff and required more than just 1 raid to tackle some of the content at the very bottom. This is an extremely simplistic description so I would encourage you to google it. DF was what kept me coming back to DAoC for many years.

    A similar concept could be implemented in AoC, either through the node system or city system. The top node/city could gain access to something like DF but there would need to be some way to allow it to change hands often so it's competitive on a daily basis.
    isFikWd2_o.jpg
  • P0NCH0P0NCH0 Member, Alpha Two
    Hard AF raids would be the perfect endgame.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Me becoming a world boss would be great
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • For me true endgame is about community, not content.

    Ideally there is a (soft) capped equal playing field at the top where what really counts is not how for you've progressed into the game but in the way you actually play it and how much of an impact you make on your friends and foes. Becoming renowned for your deeds over time because they affect other players or the world in memorable ways, even if just on a small or even individual scale. You may become known for the best trade deals, the most off-meta builds that are succesful in their niche, the most effective PvP group, the most steady PvE successes etc etc. To make a name for yourself in the area you wish to specialize in.

    I believe it's possible for the game to support and even stimulate this social renown in various ways. At the end of the day this -to me- is what an MMO is all about. Interacting with other real players in a lasting and meaningful way. Of course, the game mechanics will have to remain somewhat enticing, but if the world does not 'feel' socially alive, it won't really matter.
  • One thing that really kept me going in FFXI was the ability to switch jobs (main & sub), exploring new classes, trying new combos or filling necessary roles in raids. It was as on-the-fly as FFXIV (which I feel is too convenient), but it was nice to have my same character and not need to switch to some alt when I wanted/needed to try something different.

    End game for me in FFXI was about getting various classes to max level and getting the gear for those classes to then be a dynamic asset for my guild. I essentially did the same sort of thing in WoW, but had to do it with multiple characters due to static class assignment.

    While I’d like to see AOC allow for class changing, it should be something that requires you to be in your home so that it’s “cost” is based on location and travel time.

    I don’t know that the level cap increase is the most creative or constructive way to add to end game enjoyment. It is usually just a time sink, rather than something that actually delivers for the player. It also makes returning players (took a break for school or military for example) feel significantly behind if they were at the level cap and now have a bunch of grinding to do just to get back to where they were. The one saving grace here is that it was mentioned on stream that there is no damage-level penalty when attacking things higher than you. So the skill of a player still has value, rather than just the number next to their portrait.

    Crafting consumables and high end desirable items always has a place in my heart. An expansive system that doesn’t constantly move the goal posts (level cap), but rather one that becomes more about quality and depth over time. Strengthens you character’s reputation as a supplier of goods and services, and the more you put into it, the more you’d get out of it. I’d like to run an Inn out of the main city areas that is somewhat of a crossroads or staging point for people doing resource gathering, dungeon runs or whatever. Somehow being an oasis for the weary, a gathering point for the bold or a hideout for those on the run.

    City building and defending the home. I feel it’s not only in the journey, but maintaining a foothold in a region so as not to be knocked out of standing by a rival city within the node, that makes it worthwhile. The fragility or impermanence of the node system will hopefully keep us engaged. Not to mention being raided by a sieging guild. This builds community by investment of time and resources towards a common goal... and can lead to epic shifts in power and influence depending on how player counts and activity levels may change over time.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Arkethos wrote: »
    One thing that really kept me going in FFXI was the ability to switch jobs (main & sub), exploring new classes, trying new combos or filling necessary roles in raids. It was as on-the-fly as FFXIV (which I feel is too convenient), but it was nice to have my same character and not need to switch to some alt when I wanted/needed to try something different.

    End game for me in FFXI was about getting various classes to max level and getting the gear for those classes to then be a dynamic asset for my guild. I essentially did the same sort of thing in WoW, but had to do it with multiple characters due to static class assignment.

    While I’d like to see AOC allow for class changing, it should be something that requires you to be in your home so that it’s “cost” is based on location and travel time.

    I don’t know that the level cap increase is the most creative or constructive way to add to end game enjoyment. It is usually just a time sink, rather than something that actually delivers for the player. It also makes returning players (took a break for school or military for example) feel significantly behind if they were at the level cap and now have a bunch of grinding to do just to get back to where they were. The one saving grace here is that it was mentioned on stream that there is no damage-level penalty when attacking things higher than you. So the skill of a player still has value, rather than just the number next to their portrait.

    Crafting consumables and high end desirable items always has a place in my heart. An expansive system that doesn’t constantly move the goal posts (level cap), but rather one that becomes more about quality and depth over time. Strengthens you character’s reputation as a supplier of goods and services, and the more you put into it, the more you’d get out of it. I’d like to run an Inn out of the main city areas that is somewhat of a crossroads or staging point for people doing resource gathering, dungeon runs or whatever. Somehow being an oasis for the weary, a gathering point for the bold or a hideout for those on the run.

    City building and defending the home. I feel it’s not only in the journey, but maintaining a foothold in a region so as not to be knocked out of standing by a rival city within the node, that makes it worthwhile. The fragility or impermanence of the node system will hopefully keep us engaged. Not to mention being raided by a sieging guild. This builds community by investment of time and resources towards a common goal... and can lead to epic shifts in power and influence depending on how player counts and activity levels may change over time.

    As someone who has played FFXI and FFXIV. I have to say that multiple jobs per character would not work in Ashes. It should never be seriously considered for a game with open world PvP.

    Part of what ruins both FFXIV and FFXI is that everyone can, and does do everything. Sure it is convenient that I can swap over to tank or healer, and head back out the dungeon in a pinch, but this also creates a expectation that everyone should be able to do this. It is not enough to have just PLD capped and geared. You end up Needing DRK and WAR too just in case. (why not? the gear sets are so close anyway.)

    In open world PvP this could be catastrophic because once one Job is doing better in the meta everyone is playing it for months on end. When it comes to crafting it would be even worst. Everyone doing everything would ruin the economy.

    With an expected leveling speed of 4-6 hours a day for 40 days. Most people are not, and should not want to make many alts. The idea is to keep people so invested in their main that they don't care about alts. When you have to resort to making alts you are just board with the game. It is you not enjoying the game enough on one job to so you switch to try and mine out more fun from other areas of the game. It should be seen as the failure of game design it is, and not something to be encouraged as a feature.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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