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Question about AoC compared to other big competing MMO´s

MMOFalconMMOFalcon Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
First, I want to say I´m a HUGE fan of AoC I have pre ordered it some time ago! I have like so maney others been waiting for a game such as AoC. I knew that since I´ve heard of it on Kickstarter that I would buy in it as soon as it becomes a reality, in other words I didn’t back it on kickstarter. But I am truly happy that other people had what it took, and that they have been this engaging over the last couple years.

But I am getting curious, I´ve been playing a lot of MMO´s over the last 15+ years. That includes games like the big ones World of Warcraft, Black Dessert Online, Blade & Soul, Guild Wars 2, The Elder Scrolls Online, Final Fantasy, RuneScape etz. etz.
As well like the smaller ones which died quickly like Runes of Magic, Warhammer Online, The Lord of the Rings Online, Aion and so on….

So I have one question based on the below. How will AoC compete with the big games that mastered certain elements persey WoW, BDO and ESO? (This is of cause my opinion)

If I take a closer look on WoW, then they managed to master the following 2 things.
Dungeons/Raids
They have an incredible amount of content for just dungeons and raids, there are different levels of difficulties. When you finished normal dungeons/raids, you move on to Heroic and then Mythic. You have a progression the hole way thought the endgame content, until of cause you finished it all.

Achievements
They implemented an achievement system that makes people want to achieve them, you get special rewards as in skins and titles. You can even compare achievement points to see who the biggest “nerd” is. It makes it easier for players to set goals for them self.

If we take a closer look on BDO, then they have managed to master the following 4 things.
Combat system
They have by far the most advanced and fluent combat system I have ever experienced in the MMO genre; I personally know of no game which can compete with BDO. Every skill you use feels like it happens in an instant, the combos are perfectly adjusted, the movement is incredible, The general gaming experience of every class is stunning due to the animations and graphics put in.

PVP
The PVP section has everything you can dream of as a player versus player focused mind. You can either be in a Battle Arena and fight 1v1 duels or other sizes which you have complete control of, you can go into a battlefield with p to 60 participants and have a blast of time, you can join either a Tier 1,2 or 3/siege Nodewar to compete in to get the full PVP experience of big blobs clashing into each other.

Life skilling / AFK-progression
If you do not like the PVP focused mindset, you can go into life skilling where you can improve yourself by gathering different materials all day and sell them for profit. You can stand the hole day and process or run around trading, heck you can even enjoy a beautiful sea content experience. All this can happen either fully AFK or semi-AFK, that is something I have never seen mastered in any MMO yet, this is an important factor for a lot of people who do not have enough time to play all day.

Graphics
This game has incredible graphics, on remastered the game runs smooth (if you have the correct gaming rig of cause) and gives you such a great immersion effect into this games world.

If we take a closer look on ESO, then they have managed to master the following 2 things.
Housing system
You can buy multiple properties and design your houses as you please. There are almost no limits, and the immersion on this particular element is one of the best experiences I have ever had yet. You can invite people to your house, where you can roleplay in peace if that is what you like.

Large scale PVP
Their Cyrodiil content was one of the best Siege contents I have ever experienced, there are three factions/pacts fighting over this huge land with forts/castles and outposts. People ride around, split up into multiple big groups to get as much land as possible and hold it against the enemy. This is an ongoing event, which means if you log out you still have your forts. Unless an other faction goes in an takes it all within minutes, due to the lack on online players in the other pacts.

Wrapping up
I gues what I wish to ask is, how on earth, do you plan to implement all of these above mastered aspects into AoC.
From what I have seen so far on all your LIVE STREAMS and YouTube, I do not yet see that you can get there. Ofcause you´re only close to ALFA one now, and I sadly first join in ALFA two.
But the graphics I have seen so far, are lacking compared to what BDO has to offer and the combat I am experiencing is yet not even close to as fluent and engaging as BDO.
I haven´t heard you talking about some sort of AFK-progression possibilities, where you can leave home for work, and let your character do some progress in the meantime.

I have heard you talk about Achievements with certain titles when you progress in your chosen religion, and I have seen some housing which so far looks good. The graphics are decent they are kind of like The Lord of the Rings Online which did die after 1-2 years.

I am in general curious about how, you are planning on going to implement the listed aspects of the mentioned games above into AOC.
I am sure you are aware of other MMO´s and keep comparing your game, and by now you should have had time to see how you can compete with them, especially since u are trying to attempt to build the best MMO ever on the market.

I am aware that what we have seen so far, is only ALFA footage but I would love to hear your thought about this question.

Best regards

MMOFalcon

Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The simple answer to your question would be that Ashes isn't trying to compete directly with each aspect of each other popular MMO.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2021
    They will compete by not copying what others have done and instead they are designing systems that they think will work well for AoC.

    Dungeons/Raids: They are taking a totally different approach from WoW. If WoW’s dungeons and raids are your favorite thing about the genre then AoC might not be for you and that’s ok.

    Achievements: Any MMORPG can have an achievement system since it’s built on top of all the other systems and AoC is in no shortage of systems. We’ll see what they want to do with it.

    Combat System: This is entirely subjective. Different people like different styles. As long as it’s fluid and responsive the combat will be most likely be good. Bottom line is that you don’t need BDO’s combat system to have good combat.

    PvP: If you’ve kept up with AoC at all you know that they are not lacking in this department.

    Life Skilling: AoC will have plenty of artisan class options. Players will get to have meaningful skills outside of combat.
    Games don’t need to have a AFK option... if you don’t have time to play then you don’t time to play. Allowing players to continuously farm stuff AFK is pretty nonsensical to me and can have drastic consequences on a game that focuses on the economy as much as AoC.

    Graphics: Unreal Engine 4

    Housing: AoC will have a really robust housing system with 3 options to choose from.

    Large Scale PvP: Once again, if you have kept up with AoC at all, you would know that it will not be lacking in this department. Most other games that have tried to create large scale open world PvP have failed to give it true meaning. You take the keep only so that it can be taken back tomorrow. In AoC large scale PvP is designed to be of epic proportions not only because lots of players can participate, but also because of the repercussions of these battles.

    Wrapping Up: You say that you know that the game is only in Alpha 1 and yet you compare what you’re seeing to released games. The game has a ways to go in development, but it will compete by not copying any single game, but by instead creating something new. Also, AoC doesn’t need to beat all of those games in all of those ways... it just needs to do well what it set out to do.

    Lastly, you compared AoC’s graphics to LotRO... come on man.

    Edit: word
  • CriminalCupcakeCriminalCupcake Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Just my two cents here... But i think that games that are Afk based in progression belong solely on mobile phones and pay to win games... If you need to AFK to level anything, you're not even playing the game... Who really wants to pay 15$ a month to afk and play another game or watch youtube all the while?
  • WoW has made instanced dungeons/raids very good yes, but the majority of content in Ashes does not aim to be instanced but rather open world content.

    The combat system is still being iterated on to get the base form of it so there is not much to say there on how Ashes will differentiate, but they plan on having it hybrid between action and tab target. It will certainly be VERY hard for Ashes to get combat as smooth and satisfying as the top contenders like WoW.

    I'd say Ashes is very much a PvX game, you have to do both because of how it is designed. Open world PvP is encouraged and there is risk and reward as well?! Not sure what other MMO would give you this kind of interactive world for PvP, closest would maybe be Runescape with the Wilderness?

    Skilling and the Economy is the bread and butter of progression for player progression since you will mostly be crafting gear/accessories/consumables instead of have it drop completed. The aim in Ashes is to be able to focus on a specific thing without being locked out of all the rest of the content. So you can be a trader and still obtain the best gear in the game which is awesome.

    Ashes is running on Unreal 4 which in itself tells you the graphics will be beautiful and even more so once they jump to Unreal 5 and can hopefully take advantage of the new systems such as Nanite and Lumin.

    I can't speak much on Housing as I haven't experienced it much in other games nor read up on it in Ashes, but it should be quite extensive.

    In general, I think Ashes will bring meaning back into MMO, especially the social aspect due how its design is planned. There is not much to say about the lack of features and graphical looks yet as that have not been their focus nor should it be yet. They've put all the work into the underlying systems and tools needed to streamline the creation process once they get there. The game is, in community estimates, at least two years away so it has plenty of time to develop. Intrepid also intends to release it when its finished and not before so it is not getting rushed by any means.

    By the time Ashes releases I don't see many other MMOs that can compete with the features it will offer, assuming it all works.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    "different is better than best"

    You don't compete with another game by trying to copy it, you compete by offering a different gameplay experience. This is what Intrepid is doing with Ashes of Creation. They know they can't beat WoW when it comes to instanced PvE content so instead they are focusing on player-to-player open world interactions.
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  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    edited March 2021
    Dungeons and raids.

    WoW's dungeons and raids are not all that good, the fights themselves are. But ever since TBC all raids and dungeons have been linear.

    Combat

    WoW's combat, whilst old is very responsive (If your not in some sort of CC loop) I would go so far as to say, as far as tab target goes. If they were to massively tone down C-C abilities it's the best tab-targeting I have seen. Even the action oriented abilities (think Cone of Cold, or Dragon's Breath) Are done extremely well. They sacrifice a portion of realism. (You click, and the effect happens) but if you turn, the animation might go the complete opposite way) I am not a big fan of that particular disconnect. But it does make it feel like I can in fact control my character flawlessly.

    If you want another example of this, think platform games. Every time you shoot a projectile your character has to do this animation and you cannot adjust on the fly. That never feels good. Control is absolutely key.

    Achievements

    As far as Achievements go. They are should not be in. If more often then not leads to gating. "Link achievement" No, instead slaying the boss -is- the achievement, the gear/materials you get from it should be all the reward you need. (However, this is not a deal breaker, simply a preference)

    As far as the combat of BDO is concerned, I never tried the game, I heard it was p2w and steered clear, however. The combat as you describe it sounds good. I like responsiveness, so I will try, even if it's just a few levels.

    PvP:

    Now, here is where we are vastly different. PvP should not be balanced like say a game of checkers. It should be balanced in a more broad sense. Think of Rock, Paper, Scissors. When rock fights paper, the fight should not be balanced. If you balance the game around 1 v 1 or even 3 v 3 you run the risk of homogenisation. You should try and avoid that at all cost (imo) There's also the fact that PvP is going to be essential as a gameplay loop anyway. It'll make sense for PvE players too, which is part of the beauty of Ashes. You can be a PvP guild and have a big influence on the world. Rather than no influence at all as it just happens in a closed off arena for which you queue. If you like that, there's plenty of games like that. We call them mobas.


    Afk--stuff?

    Gathering is an activity, much like crafting. I'd much rather they flesh out these systems to make them more engaging and add a player skill element that allows the good ones to just have slightly better stuff. In fact, personally I'd prefer it to be a class in and of itself. (But this is not happening) If you can semi-afk content, then I'd argue it's horrible content and needs to be revised.

    Graphics.

    Considering the usage of Unreal Engine, graphics will be fine. And with some luck we'll even see the game migrate to newer versions every so often.

    Housing.

    The housing system in ESO is actually really bad. Everyone can purchase the same home, in the same place, with the same surrounding area. It's essentially WoW's garrison, but a little more fleshed out and personal.
    There will be some instanced housing as I recall. But I'd much sooner name Wildstar as a housing system I'd prefer to see. Though something as customisable as the Sims would be ideal. (And a pipe-dream)

    Largescale PvP

    This is indeed fantastic, it gives a real sense of scale and awe. However, I would like to share an anecdote on this. One that I personally witnessed happening, and it's very much applicable to MMOs as well.
    Planetside2. When this game first came out, I was excited, Planetside 1 was fantastic it was large scale and really addictive. Planetside 2 even looked gorgeous. But they made some changes, which I never realised until I thought about it and noticed fixes in patches. There is a huge zerg mentality, defenders tend to have an edge (with spawn points, and the inabillity of the attackers to place mobile ones near the base. All those fights turn into a massive zerg. Which is entertaining sometimes, but that gets old REALLY quick. What planetside 2 now does to, is spread out the battle. You'll still have to attack a base (or castle in Ashes) but there are supply lines that form to fuel the attack, which means defenders can venture out and disrupt them, which in turn causes the attack to send defenders to protect their supply lines, causing little skirmishes which are in fact crucial to the successful attack or defense. Just storming a castle with endless numbers is fun in movies. (Battle for Helmsdeep?) But for gameplay, it is not. You'll have massive pop-in issues, characters that haven't fully loaded resulting in floating name-tags. You can't see anything due to all the effects of spells and what not.
    So largescale is good, when executed right.

    In your summary you mention graphics. These are hardly the most important thing in a game such as this. Another reason I never played BDO was because it was the only MMO I couldn't run on my PC at the time. You don't want the graphics to be too demanding, or many players can't play properly, not to mention it clashes with your wish for largescale PvP. Imagine the pretty hair and cloth physics of BDO having to be rendered constantly in a large scale battle.

    And no, afk progression isn't a thing, though possibly some form of rested bonus might be. But you should not progress whilst you're not playing. Just like you won't learn French by sleeping.

    And Lord of the Rings online didn't die due to graphics. If that was the case, WoW wouldn't still be alive and kicking. So your insinuation there is based on a flawed premise.
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  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2021
    OP,
    Steven did discuss the AFK option on a livestream a couple years ago. What I remember from it is, we will not be AFK leveling. We will have to play the game.
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    BDO, sadly does not allow Linux users. So I can't see the combat you mentioned first hand.
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  • I keep reading so much crap by ignorant people that spout lines like "no need to copy other games blah-blah-blah..." like the devs of Intrepid can redefine what an MMORPG is when the genre exist for 25 years already, I mean how ignorant someone must be to say such stuff? in all those years the MMORPG genre exist there is games that have never been surpassed in some of their core elements because those games was perfect & there is no way to surpass perfection, that's how it is, if you wanna create a successful MMO today that's exactly what a studio need to do, to copy the best elements from the games that undeniably was the best there is at what they did.

    There was never an MMORPG with better sieges than Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG with better OW-PVP than Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were politics, alliances, betrayals, had such importance as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were crafting played such an important role both in gear up & in the economy, with dedicated crafters since it was not something anyone could do as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG that blend so brilliantly PvEvP (PVE that lead to PVP) as in Lineage II

    As there was never an MMORPG that did naval content & housing better than ArcheAge

    The above are facts it's not an opinion, so when you know which games was best at what, to act so arrogant & proclaim that "no! we can do it better, we are smarter, more talented than those devs who create the X,Y (Legendary) game..." well any devs the past many years who dare to say something like that fail miserable, the best is best for a reason, because they have some elements that is so good that put them above everyone else, so to those who say "no need to copy other games..." your ignorance make my head hurt.
  • WarthWarth Member
    Just my 2 cents to some of the points.
    It's called Alpha not Alfa.

    Quick overall thoughts:
    If you want to build a successful MMO, then you don't compare yourself with other MMOs on the market. That just leads to failure.
    You build your own cohesive and enjoyable gameplay experience that DIFFERENTIATES your product from the others.
    Pretty sure, that we have significant amounts of proof showing, that copying the concepts behind an already established MMO simply doesn't work, whether you go with a very high or a very low budget.
    Different games are played for different aspects.
    Also, comparing AoC to WoW/ESO, is like comparing BR Shooter with CSGO with Battlefield or Skyrim/W3 with Soulslike games or even Isometric fantasy RPGs like Pillars of Eternity, Divinity OS
    It simply doesn't work.

    If you want to compare AoC with something, then compare it with a other games in the same subgenre of Open World Sandbox/Sandpark PvX games.
    That's include AA, BDO and Lineage 2 as a primary comparison, Eve/Albion/SWG and some other, more nice mmos as a secondary source of comparison.

    Instanced Dungeons and Raids:
    While i agree with the notion, that games like Wildstar, WoW and FFXIV mastered the instanced PvE Gameplay, there is one simply truth. AoC isn't designed around instanced content as a focus. Which is a good thing. If people wanted to play that, they'd play one of these games. Trying to copy/focus on the same aspect isn't the goal of AoC in the slightest. For instanced pve content, there is only 2 ways to go. Focus on it completely or have it as an afterthought. There is no inbetween. AoC decides for the latter in favor of other features.

    Achievements:
    Agreed. WoW's achievement system is nice, offering hours upon hours of content ranging from casual to hardcore goals. This is however based on the large history of WOW which continously added to it. A new mmo will never get close to that. It is built upon over time.

    Combat/Graphics
    While i personally prefer the combat of BnS over BDO. I do agree, that BDO just feels very nice to play combat wise.
    I guess graphically there is no denying the fact, that BDO is on the very top of graphics wise.

    However, while it is possible to carve yourself a spot in the MMO market through outstanding combat and graphics. Neither of them need to be the best for a game to succeed. They just need to range somewhere between acceptable - good, as long as the other aspects the game focuses on are solid. ESO/FFXIV is a perfect example for that. Neither the Combat nor the graphics are anyway near Top-Tier. Both are very successful for the other aspects within the game.

    PVP:
    In terms of PvP offered, i don't think Ashes is behind BDO at all. At least as long as the promises can be executed upon.

    ESO Housing system is between average and very good, but nowhere near the best of the industry

    How can you say that ESO mastered large scale PvP?
    • Cyrodil isn't meaningful at all. Its a just for fun instant gratifying large scale battleground in true Themepark fashion. Nothing else.
    • The performance is absolutely atrocious

    Also AFKprogression won't be a thing here. Most of the community think its a good thing.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    rpgmaniac wrote: »
    There was never an MMORPG were politics, alliances, betrayals, had such importance as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were crafting played such an important role both in gear up & in the economy, with dedicated crafters since it was not something anyone could do as in Lineage II

    EVE would like to have a word.

    It smashes L2 in these specific points - they aren't even in the same ballpark, to be honest.

    I hate to say it, but suggesting that L2 was the best with these two points shows a general lack of exposure to other MMO's.

    I would put SWG above L2 for crafting, as well.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    rpgmaniac wrote: »
    I keep reading so much crap by ignorant people that spout lines like "no need to copy other games blah-blah-blah..." like the devs of Intrepid can redefine what an MMORPG is when the genre exist for 25 years already, I mean how ignorant someone must be to say such stuff? in all those years the MMORPG genre exist there is games that have never been surpassed in some of their core elements because those games was perfect & there is no way to surpass perfection, that's how it is, if you wanna create a successful MMO today that's exactly what a studio need to do, to copy the best elements from the games that undeniably was the best there is at what they did.

    There was never an MMORPG with better sieges than Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG with better OW-PVP than Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were politics, alliances, betrayals, had such importance as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were crafting played such an important role both in gear up & in the economy, with dedicated crafters since it was not something anyone could do as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG that blend so brilliantly PvEvP (PVE that lead to PVP) as in Lineage II

    As there was never an MMORPG that did naval content & housing better than ArcheAge

    The above are facts it's not an opinion, so when you know which games was best at what, to act so arrogant & proclaim that "no! we can do it better, we are smarter, more talented than those devs who create the X,Y (Legendary) game..." well any devs the past many years who dare to say something like that fail miserable, the best is best for a reason, because they have some elements that is so good that put them above everyone else, so to those who say "no need to copy other games..." your ignorance make my head hurt.

    Hmmmmm how exactly are you measuring them as the "best"? Is there a metric for that or is it just what you believe is best (in which case that's not a fact, it's an opinion)?
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  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited March 2021
    rpgmaniac wrote: »

    There was never an MMORPG with better OW-PVP than Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were politics, alliances, betrayals, had such importance as in Lineage II
    There was never an MMORPG were crafting played such an important role both in gear up & in the economy, with dedicated crafters since it was not something anyone could do as in Lineage II

    Beside the crapy graphics and league of legend combat, Albion online would like to have a word to.

    Fun fact about albion online, every item droped in open world, dungeons, world bosses, is crafted by players, so when the item drop you actual have the name of person that crafted that item and like you have well know pvp/pve players in games, you have Albion crafters to

    What allows this is when you die for players in the world, some items in inventory and equiped become trash/broken, this items are placed automatically in the world drops

    But in general, actually i think only eve and albion have something comparable with aoc, and that's sad

  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited March 2021
    Oh

  • PatsoldPatsold Member
    edited March 2021
    I dont think you can compare games like this wite AOC.
    Your taste ist different from player to player.

    I hate wow dungeons. Its Boring because there is just a grp finder and you make this dungeons like work. Thats only my taste.

    And AOC dont need to master a Element. (PvP or dungeon or... ) thats the mistake from many games. It need to be the Allrounder. All Aspekte needs to give us player fun, but nobody say it needs to be perfekt. I left so mutch games because they do many things wrong not because the good things where not better.
  • MMOFalconMMOFalcon Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    First of all, thanks for all the replies, I totally love it and enjoyed reading them.
    (Again, this is all my own personal opinion, and based on what I hear from my communities and friends.)

    To the misunderstanding you guys seem to have regarding my post, more specific the "copying other MMO´s" I have never said that they should, I absolutely do not want them to do that.
    All I am trying to get out is, that they should think of how to implement those factors into their game to surpass those other MMO´s. Lets not forget, this game is not gonna be released before it is good. Probably at least 3+ years left before release, and these existing MMO´s keep getting better and better on what they do. In other words, if you do not stay on top with those games and their progress. Your game will on release have no chance due to the lack of graphics for 60% of the MMO gaming community that I know.

    In my opinion u always have to look on other MMO´s to know, how to build your own game especially when you wish to make the best MMO possible for us MMO genre lovers. This implies that you have to surpass those games, and yes I was harsh comparing the graphics. But Graphics have shown that they matter to people as well, the systems is not the only important thing. It is a really good place to start because it is the base of your game, no doubt in that. But they should at least have the thoughts in on how to compete with games when their game releases, and looking up to the existing ones can give you a pretty good idea about where the technology train is heading.

    The fact that I personally mention the "semi afk / afk" option is simply that, it starts to matter to a lot of people. Which means that AoC, if Intrepid in some sort would think about implementing it, they possibly could get 1-2million players more then if they did not. And in the long run that matters, since that gives them the opportunity to release more content even faster, and not having the problem of people being stuck on max level with "no" content left to play besides PVP.

    I wish for AoC to become the greatest MMO and surpass all others, that´s why I simply find it important to mention these facts. Of cause there are always people who say otherwise and that is completely fine.

    And to the fact which MMO´s ever has been the greatest one, well I would say that is a personal preference. To Lineage II, yeah it had good elements and was enjoyable to play but it wasn´t really good in my opinion.

    And thank you for the correction Wrath on Alpha, I didn't notice that my Danish language came in here haha.
  • MMOFalcon wrote: »

    All I am trying to get out is, that they should think of how to implement those factors into their game to surpass those other MMO´s. Lets not forget, this game is not gonna be released before it is good. Probably at least 3+ years left before release, and these existing MMO´s keep getting better and better on what they do. In other words, if you do not stay on top with those games and their progress. Your game will on release have no chance due to the lack of graphics for 60% of the MMO gaming community that I know.

    Not gonna lie, most MMOs are regressing their systems, not improving them.
  • MMOFalcon wrote: »
    First of all, thanks for all the replies, I totally love it and enjoyed reading them.
    (Again, this is all my own personal opinion, and based on what I hear from my communities and friends.)

    To the misunderstanding you guys seem to have regarding my post, more specific the "copying other MMO´s" I have never said that they should, I absolutely do not want them to do that.
    All I am trying to get out is, that they should think of how to implement those factors into their game to surpass those other MMO´s. Lets not forget, this game is not gonna be released before it is good. Probably at least 3+ years left before release, and these existing MMO´s keep getting better and better on what they do. In other words, if you do not stay on top with those games and their progress. Your game will on release have no chance due to the lack of graphics for 60% of the MMO gaming community that I know.

    In my opinion u always have to look on other MMO´s to know, how to build your own game especially when you wish to make the best MMO possible for us MMO genre lovers. This implies that you have to surpass those games, and yes I was harsh comparing the graphics. But Graphics have shown that they matter to people as well, the systems is not the only important thing. It is a really good place to start because it is the base of your game, no doubt in that. But they should at least have the thoughts in on how to compete with games when their game releases, and looking up to the existing ones can give you a pretty good idea about where the technology train is heading.

    The fact that I personally mention the "semi afk / afk" option is simply that, it starts to matter to a lot of people. Which means that AoC, if Intrepid in some sort would think about implementing it, they possibly could get 1-2million players more then if they did not. And in the long run that matters, since that gives them the opportunity to release more content even faster, and not having the problem of people being stuck on max level with "no" content left to play besides PVP.

    I wish for AoC to become the greatest MMO and surpass all others, that´s why I simply find it important to mention these facts. Of cause there are always people who say otherwise and that is completely fine.

    And to the fact which MMO´s ever has been the greatest one, well I would say that is a personal preference. To Lineage II, yeah it had good elements and was enjoyable to play but it wasn´t really good in my opinion.

    And thank you for the correction Wrath on Alpha, I didn't notice that my Danish language came in here haha.

    For me, many mmo games di in Front of me.
    They have some good Aspektes sure, but at the end I will never playing it again. I think AOC make not the" normal game " And thats why they dont need to watch at other mmos. AOC dont will become a "Frankenstein" Zombie and I love it. It gives my mmo heart new hope ....if a new game Choose new paths.

    And your right, some basic stuff like good graphics makes it better but you don't realy need it. For me, valheim Minecraft are also good not for the graphics, because of the gameplay. But im just a single human. 😃
    And I understanding you :)
  • rpgmaniacrpgmaniac Member
    edited March 2021
    Hmmmmm how exactly are you measuring them as the "best"? Is there a metric for that or is it just what you believe is best (in which case that's not a fact, it's an opinion)?

    I'm not the only one who agree with what I said I can tell you that with absolute certainty because I'm playing exclusively OW-PVP/PK MMORPGs & I'm following this kind of games all my MMORPG life, I have play all the big ones extensively & even some minor ones, I have read through the years thousands of comments from people who also playing those kind of games & I have never seen a single person that disagree with what I'm saying, to the opposite people are universally agree on those things, if your objection is about what I wrote for Lineage II then I'm gonna assume that you haven't played the game during the golden years between 2004-2007, the vast majority of people who love those kind of games regard Linage II as the benchmark, the absolute best the genre has to offer, I'm saying that from my experience & from the interaction I had with fans of those games for almost 20 years now, that's how I know that what I'm saying is a fact & not just my opinion.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2021
    rpgmaniac wrote: »
    Hmmmmm how exactly are you measuring them as the "best"? Is there a metric for that or is it just what you believe is best (in which case that's not a fact, it's an opinion)?

    I'm not the only one who agree with what I said I can tell you that with absolute certainty because I'm playing exclusively OW-PVP/PK MMORPGs & I'm following this kind of games all my MMORPG life, I have play all the big ones extensively & even some minor ones, I have read through the years thousands of comments from people who also playing those kind of games & I have never seen a single person that disagree with what I'm saying, to the opposite people are universally agree on those things, if your objection is about what I wrote for Lineage II then I'm gonna assume that you haven't played the game during the golden years between 2004-2007, the vast majority of people who love those kind of games regard Linage II as the benchmark, the absolute best the genre has to offer, I'm saying that from my experience & from the interaction I had with fans of those games for almost 20 years now, that's how I know that what I'm saying is a fact & not just my opinion.

    Just because lots of people agree with your opinion doesn't make it a fact, just a popular opinion.

    Saying "Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter" is a fact because there is a metric for it
    Saying "Vanilla is the best flavour" is an opinion, no matter how many people agree or disagree with it
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • Must say that I have played all the games RPGManiac listed (it is a very limited list after all), and I agree that I liked playing them. Though I have to agree with Wanering Mist as well, that they aren't the best at everything listed. And in regards to crafting... to be honest... I think Ryzom had the best and most versatile crafting system of any MMO. It's a game that hasn't done well because of so many other aspects that are done very poorly, but their crafting/harvesting system is amazing. And there are a lot of emulators to pre-existing games that have added and changed the way the original game was made that are far better than any existing "original" mmo as well.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 2021
    rpgmaniac wrote: »
    Hmmmmm how exactly are you measuring them as the "best"? Is there a metric for that or is it just what you believe is best (in which case that's not a fact, it's an opinion)?

    I'm not the only one who agree with what I said I can tell you that with absolute certainty because I'm playing exclusively OW-PVP/PK MMORPGs & I'm following this kind of games all my MMORPG life, I have play all the big ones extensively & even some minor ones, I have read through the years thousands of comments from people who also playing those kind of games & I have never seen a single person that disagree with what I'm saying, to the opposite people are universally agree on those things, if your objection is about what I wrote for Lineage II then I'm gonna assume that you haven't played the game during the golden years between 2004-2007, the vast majority of people who love those kind of games regard Linage II as the benchmark, the absolute best the genre has to offer, I'm saying that from my experience & from the interaction I had with fans of those games for almost 20 years now, that's how I know that what I'm saying is a fact & not just my opinion.

    The only MMO players that would agree with your comments are those who had L2 as their first MMO, and are looking for that same experience again. This doesn't mean it is right, it means those people have rose tinted glasses on in regards to L2.

    If L2 was that great, you wouldn't be looking for a new game. That is an objective fact, as opposed to your subjective opinions.

    Literally no one that has looked in to EVE, or even heard stories about EVE, could agree with you on the two points you made that I highlighted earlier.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    AOC is niche and will more than likely have a harder time retaining players from other games. Not a bad thing bc it's been said over and over that AOC has a specific vision and it won't be for everyone.
    That's how it will stay afloat by staying apart from the others. Now if it wants to make the big bucks then it'll have to compromise but let's hope that won't be for many years if ever.

    You'll just have to jump in and find out if it's your forever home or a casual place to kill things.
  • Makinoji wrote: »
    AOC is niche and will more than likely have a harder time retaining players from other games. Not a bad thing bc it's been said over and over that AOC has a specific vision and it won't be for everyone.
    That's how it will stay afloat by staying apart from the others. Now if it wants to make the big bucks then it'll have to compromise but let's hope that won't be for many years if ever.

    You'll just have to jump in and find out if it's your forever home or a casual place to kill things.
    Why is a niche tell me? In the last 15 years or more tell me a pvp or pvx mmorpg with big budget?
    Short answer, any, you don´t know how the game will appeal because you didn´t have nothing of this type for years, the near that you have is albion online a mobile/pc hybrid with horrible latency problems and eve but this one is about spaceships...

    Battleroyal and survivle games was a niche games some years ago, just saying...
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited March 2021
    Ramirez wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    AOC is niche and will more than likely have a harder time retaining players from other games. Not a bad thing bc it's been said over and over that AOC has a specific vision and it won't be for everyone.
    That's how it will stay afloat by staying apart from the others. Now if it wants to make the big bucks then it'll have to compromise but let's hope that won't be for many years if ever.

    You'll just have to jump in and find out if it's your forever home or a casual place to kill things.
    Why is a niche tell me? In the last 15 years or more tell me a pvp or pvx mmorpg with big budget?
    Short answer, any, you don´t know how the game will appeal because you didn´t have nothing of this type for years, the near that you have is albion online a mobile/pc hybrid with horrible latency problems and eve but this one is about spaceships...

    Battleroyal and survivle games was a niche games some years ago, just saying...

    IMO niche might be the wrong word, however I understand where the thought stems from:
    • The game is intended to reward effort rather than provide instant gratification. This will create a large divide between the "hardcore" and "casual" crowd. This usually puts of a lot of people that want to be competitively active, without being able to spend as much time on the game as they'd like to.
    • The game might cause you to lose things you have already worked for. Backwards progressions puts off quite a lot of casuals. This goes hand in hand with the flagging system, the caravan system and the node system. Enough people just ragequit when they see their goods from a caravan stolen or their node sieged.
    • The flagging system already puts of a decent junk of pve-only players. (Which is a good thing imo, you really don't want these players on your server in a game likes Ashes)
    It comes down to one, very simple truth: MMORPGs are Niche. They always have been Niche due to the simple fact that they are competitive and require effort to be put in on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
    WoW might have been mainstream once, but it really hasn't been something you'd call an MMORPG based on the gameplay loop, the same way games like Everquest or Archeage or even Lineage 2 were.

    Many players in the so called "MMORPG Genre" don't want a real mmorpg. They want a solo game with CO-OP PvE Content and optional, quickly accessible, no risk PvP in the forms of Arenas and Battlegrounds.
    This involves a large junk of the population playing the most popular MMOs right now.
    Compared to this junk of players, AoC might very well end up like a "niche" product as it is very polarizing in its game design. However, that doesn't mean that there will be a lack of players.

    Theoretically, every game is a niche game as it caters to a certain niche of players with some niches simply being better than others. For some weird reason, people perceive "niche" as something negative, simply because the game doesn't reach the 6+ million concurrent Subs WoW once had. Which is a ludicrous thought in itself.

    While is certainly follows some niche design principles, I'm very confident, that the game easily has a sufficently big player pool to attract. The better question is, whether they can draw them in based on the game they present on release day.
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