Starting a New Guild After Launch

To me it seems plenty fair that the guilds that were dedicated enough to start recruiting before the game lunched. Get an advantage over guilds that start up later. It is just a return on their time investment. They are trying to get as much done now so they can go in swinging as hard as possible.

It is not to say that is will be impossible to start a guild after launch, just more difficult. "Extreme disadvantage" might be the correct analysis of the situation for a random guy wanting to start up a guild to make friends. It might just be a slight disadvantage for someone in a guild looking to defect over a dispute.

It is not common for any guild to be eternal. A guild that was dominating a node for the first six months might split over a dispute, and become a number of smaller guilds that now need to grow.

I don't want to see any catch up mechanics or discounts offered to new guilds. To me having a guild should be more than just a neat name under your head, and a chat room. It should be something that takes time and energy to earn. Something that not everyone is going to be capable of doing well. I want it to be difficult so that when someone tells me their guild is X-level. I can give it the respect it deserves.

Noaani

I don't see this as being an issue at all.

Nodes and alliances aren't an issue. Nodes are not tied to guilds, and guilds are not tied to nodes. Most guilds will want members that are citizens of multiple different nodes - even if they have one node as their base of operations.

Alliances are something that most guilds will either have worked out before forming, or will form fairly quickly.

This leaves guild perks - Ashes isn't the first game to have perks tied to guild level, there is no reason to think it would hinder people in Ashes when the same system doesn't hinder people in other games.

As with basically every single feature that is possible to have in an MMO, WoW did this completely wrong, and so should be looked at as an example of how not to do it, not as an example of what it will be like. A simple illustration of this is that if you are a mega-guild in Ashes, you do not have powerful perks, as there is a choice between perks and increased guild size.

Noaani wrote:

A simple illustration of this is that if you are a mega-guild in Ashes, you do not have powerful perks, as there is a choice between perks and increased guild size.

I don't think this will be as big of a balancing act as some might think. Many large guilds are already planning on seeing whether or not they'll just be a conglomerate of smaller guilds run in a big discord

And whereas I'm perfectly fine w/ being rewarded w/ a time investment...one should ask at what point it becomes a bit degenerate for players trying to build a new guild.

How long do you think it should take for a guild to build up those perks so that they could have a chance at scratching established guilds?

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

I don't think this will be as big of a balancing act as some might think. Many large guilds are already planning on seeing whether or not they'll just be a conglomerate of smaller guilds run in a big discord

In my experience, these never last the distance.

They are effectively the same as any other guild alliance. Eventually, some of the guilds will have a membership base that have different priorities to the whole, and so will go off in their own direction.

daveywavey

I'd be disappointed to see new guilds not being created. Given that guilds have a finite limit to members, as long as the player numbers are there, there should always be the option to create a new guild.

daveywavey wrote: »

I'd be disappointed to see new guilds not being created. Given that guilds have a finite limit to members, as long as the player numbers are there, there should always be the option to create a new guild.

I'm not saying people won't be able to create guilds, but that if grinding it's perks takes too long then it might dissuade others from joining smaller guilds which'll stunt growth and only serve to benefit larger guilds.

@Maezriel

so if I understand what you're getting at,

guilds gets benefits for being established prior to the launch for launch, and those members of said guilds were backers and paid supporters of the games development, then how is that not some hybridized prepaid pay to win mechanic if it gives an advantage to said guild and quite possibly its members?

Launch should be a clean slate for everything and everyone
(minus the cosmetics, embers etc from backer support)

unless I am missing something from your intent behind this thread, am I correct in your concern?

the increased benefit of influence would give those said guilds a benefit in progression of the nodes development and players participation opposed to a guild that is new at launch.

sounds like a prepaid to win mechanic that rewards backers over new players at launch by giving them boosts.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Maezriel

so if I understand what you're getting at,

guilds gets benefits for being established prior to the launch for launch, and those members of said guilds were backers and paid supporters of the games development, then how is that not some hybridized prepaid pay to win mechanic if it gives an advantage to said guild and quite possibly its members?

Launch should be a clean slate for everything and everyone
(minus the cosmetics, embers etc from backer support)

unless I am missing something from your intent behind this thread, am I correct in your concern?

the increased benefit of influence would give those said guilds a benefit in progression of the nodes development and players participation opposed to a guild that is new at launch.

sounds like a prepaid to win mechanic that rewards backers over new players at launch by giving them boosts.

Anyone right now can say they are starting a guild and attract players without contributing to Intrepid in any way. The advantage they would have is starting numbers, but theoretically no one in this imaginary guild has to pay anything until launch. Launch is still a clean slate, as all of the prep work of creating a guild and organizing it is happing out of game. They still have to from a in-game guild and level it up after launch.

What OP is talking about is after all of the establish guilds get going, it will be harder for newer guilds to compete. I agree with OPs assessment of the situation, but I don't think anything should be done about it.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Maezriel

so if I understand what you're getting at,

guilds gets benefits for being established prior to the launch for launch, and those members of said guilds were backers and paid supporters of the games development, then how is that not some hybridized prepaid pay to win mechanic if it gives an advantage to said guild and quite possibly its members?

Launch should be a clean slate for everything and everyone
(minus the cosmetics, embers etc from backer support)

unless I am missing something from your intent behind this thread, am I correct in your concern?

the increased benefit of influence would give those said guilds a benefit in progression of the nodes development and players participation opposed to a guild that is new at launch.

sounds like a prepaid to win mechanic that rewards backers over new players at launch by giving them boosts.

Anyone right now can say they are starting a guild and attract players without contributing to Intrepid in any way. The advantage they would have is starting numbers, but theoretically no one in this imaginary guild has to pay anything until launch. Launch is still a clean slate, as all of the prep work of creating a guild and organizing it is happing out of game. They still have to from a in-game guild and level it up after launch.

What OP is talking about is after all of the establish guilds get going, it will be harder for newer guilds to compete. I agree with OPs assessment of the situation, but I don't think anything should be done about it.

oh!
establishing guilds ahead of time is common in any game prior to launch as many communities/guilds play different games.
but rewarding those for early access to guild establishment could still cause an imbalance to influence. If they give pre-determined boosts versus giving everyone the same build, it would negate any issues and reduce concerns of balance for influence and complaints in the community post launch.

I believe the intent behind the siege and warring mechanics is to establish dominance in a node and it's zone of influence without needing to add additional mechanics.

From my understanding, anyone has the potential to lose everything and start over after a siege ( as the node is turned to ashes and debris, regardless of stage). So to give a benefit like this seems redundant and unnecessary as it will cause turmoil. Even if there is a dominant node, they could lose everything one day and the vassals around it would have the potential to rise and take it's place.

Additionally, what's stopping guilds from going around node to node and just being used as influence boosters? even if they added in a condition for this..

currently as is, I'm against it.

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Additionally, what's stopping guilds from going around node to node and just being used as influence boosters?

There is nothing at all to stop this, nor should there be.

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Additionally, what's stopping guilds from going around node to node and just being used as influence boosters?

There is nothing at all to stop this, nor should there be.

that's fair, still against it. but that's just my opinion

EDIT:

so in theory, guilds could become a economic reason to be a paid service as being part of joining a node/vassal?

additionally, guilds could extort nodes with in-game and/or real life currency by capitalizing on this boost by threatening to leave and or joining by the highest bidder?

hmm.. sounds like a bad idea to me lol

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Additionally, what's stopping guilds from going around node to node and just being used as influence boosters?

There is nothing at all to stop this, nor should there be.

that's fair, still against it. but that's just my opinion

EDIT:

so in theory, guilds could become a economic reason to be a paid service as being part of joining a node/vassal?

additionally, guilds could extort nodes with in-game and/or real life currency by capitalizing on this boost by threatening to leave and or joining by the highest bidder?

hmm.. sounds like a bad idea to me lol

No, RMT is strictly forbidden and more than one game has practiced banning an entire guild even if it was only one or two members actually involved in the transaction...I wouldn't be surprised if Intrepid did the same.

All I'm saying is if it takes to long for a new guild to grind up perks that it'll discourage people from starting/joining newer/smaller guilds as people will gravitate towards guilds that already have halls, enhancements, patron quest, etc.

If you want to buy something expensive. Do you buy from a no name company or do you look for a company that has a proven track record and product.

Joining a guild is an investment. New guilds getting into the market should have to work harder to get to where more established guilds are.

Also even after the game launches all of the same out of game platforms are available to prospective guild leaders for recruiting.

Grinding up perks is part of the investment in building a guild. I don't want to see it become discounted. After all do you really want to be a part of a guild that needs hand outs to keep up?

Maezriel wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Additionally, what's stopping guilds from going around node to node and just being used as influence boosters?

There is nothing at all to stop this, nor should there be.

that's fair, still against it. but that's just my opinion

EDIT:

so in theory, guilds could become a economic reason to be a paid service as being part of joining a node/vassal?

additionally, guilds could extort nodes with in-game and/or real life currency by capitalizing on this boost by threatening to leave and or joining by the highest bidder?

hmm.. sounds like a bad idea to me lol

No, RMT is strictly forbidden and more than one game has practiced banning an entire guild even if it was only one or two members actually involved in the transaction...I wouldn't be surprised if Intrepid did the same.

All I'm saying is if it takes to long for a new guild to grind up perks that it'll discourage people from starting/joining newer/smaller guilds as people will gravitate towards guilds that already have halls, enhancements, patron quest, etc.

whether it's in the game or in real life, reported or unreported, there is potential for some sort of extortion to this favoured mechanic.

Companies that claim to have standards and privacy may legally have to abide by the rules, that doesn't mean their staff is trustworthy or wont break the rules necessarily.

I still think it's a bad idea to play favourites for these kind of mechanics for a game like this. I understand the
"good" intent behind it, but I can see many problems stemming from the toxicity it could encourage of "unfairness" to newer guilds. This would discourage new guilds from being formed and progressing nodes.

Additionally, players will just flock to the nodes that have these favoured guilds in them based on influence bonuses.

I'm against it

Either give the benefit to all guilds, or get rid of it for all guilds. that's where I stand.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Grinding up perks is part of the investment in building a guild. I don't want to see it become discounted. After all do you really want to be a part of a guild that needs hand outs to keep up?

Not discounted, I'm just curious what people think the speed for getting them should be.

As far as the second half of your comment it's not about handouts but about giving smaller guilds a chance to grow.

Not even having to touch the dozen or so guild perks Intrepid has planned, just on the fact that AoC is a PvX game gives established guilds a huge advantage b/c of there being strength in numbers.

There's wanting to work towards something meaningful and then there's an exercise in futility...if the grind to open guild halls and similar perks takes too long then I feel starting a new guild would be in the latter.

Maezriel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Grinding up perks is part of the investment in building a guild. I don't want to see it become discounted. After all do you really want to be a part of a guild that needs hand outs to keep up?

Not discounted, I'm just curious what people think the speed for getting them should be.

As far as the second half of your comment it's not about handouts but about giving smaller guilds a chance to grow.

Not even having to touch the dozen or so guild perks Intrepid has planned, just on the fact that AoC is a PvX game gives established guilds a huge advantage b/c of there being strength in numbers.

There's wanting to work towards something meaningful and then there's an exercise in futility...if the grind to open guild halls and similar perks takes too long then I feel starting a new guild would be in the latter.

multiple guilds can be part of the same node and so on in their vassals correct? try to use resources like the internet to aid in your guilds development and success.
if speeding up the way the game is meant to be played is your goal, then your aiming for short cuts and boosts.

Guilds will grow over time and develop, merge, succeed, fail, disband. There's a cycle to that, their success or failure is up to their staffing and decision. If everything was successful then there would be no competition.
It's like only enjoying video games on the easiest difficulty because you like to feel epic instead of challenging yourself to progress into a better gamer.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

multiple guilds can be part of the same node and so on in their vassals correct? try to use resources like the internet to aid in your guilds development and success.
if speeding up the way the game is meant to be played is your goal, then your aiming for short cuts and boosts.

Guilds will grow over time and develop, merge, succeed, fail, disband. There's a cycle to that, their success or failure is up to their staffing and decision. If everything was successful then there would be no competition.
It's like only enjoying video games on the easiest difficulty because you like to feel epic instead of challenging yourself to progress into a better gamer.

The line between easy and unreasonably difficult isn't as thin as you're making it out to be. On top of that, it doesn't matter how personally determined you are to build a guild if the perks of staying in an established guild far outweigh the benefits of leaving and you can't recoup those perks unless you dump months of playtime into it.

You can't grow a guild unless you're able to recruit and you can't recruit if people don't see a greener pasture. Yes, you'll have the same access to recruitment tools but it's not really equal when all a small guild can promise is a fun family atmosphere while an established one promises a guild hall, merchants, safe travel from A to B, and more

That's why I'm curious about how long people think it should take to grind out these perks. If you can buy them w/ gold then maybe you can bankroll it through personal questing and trade; however, if it takes months of grinding quest just to start getting basic perks and you need a healthy number people then that's where I say it'd be too difficult and just serve to dissuade people from starting their own guild.

Maezriel wrote: »

Not discounted, I'm just curious what people think the speed for getting them should be.

As far as the second half of your comment it's not about handouts but about giving smaller guilds a chance to grow.

Not even having to touch the dozen or so guild perks Intrepid has planned, just on the fact that AoC is a PvX game gives established guilds a huge advantage b/c of there being strength in numbers.

There's wanting to work towards something meaningful and then there's an exercise in futility...if the grind to open guild halls and similar perks takes too long then I feel starting a new guild would be in the latter.

To me any effort less than the full effort a big/launch guild puts in is a discount or handout.

I am very skeptical that being a smaller/late guild will be a exercise in futility. A challenge sure, but not an impossible task.

Also keep in mind. Guilds can from alliances. Alliances can funnel members into one guild and become a big guild. It adds to the whole political dynamic of the game.

DesyncGaming

If its anything like BDO most guilds implode fairly often 😂 300 people all trying to be the main protagonist never works well.