Riot's new LOL MMORPG nearly guaranteed to have one feature I have never seen another MMO try.

Vhaeyne

The bushes you can hide in!

I don't think I would actually play a MMO based on LOL. I am more of a Smite guy myself, and even then I would not play a Smite MMORPG.

In any case. Having bushes around the world that are so thick you could not see if someone is in them would be great for open world PvP. I don't feel like it would be hard to implement.

What downsides are there too a feature like this?

World too dangerous?

George_Black

Sounds fun and would love it if more mmos had it.
No downsides. It's good stuff.

TriggerTec

Sounds fun and all until you get ganked by a giant squad hiding in the bushes lmao

bloodprophet

They had a player transmog effect in APOC you could turn in to a bed or a bush depending on which item you found.
I would think the same ability that revealed stealthed players would work here.

Vhaeyne

bloodprophet wrote: »

They had a player transmog effect in APOC you could turn in to a bed or a bush depending on which item you found.
I would think the same ability that revealed stealthed players would work here.

Never got to play APOC, I would love to be a mimic. Sounds like great fun when it works. Maybe a outdoor version of the spell that turns you into a bush for a short time?

Atama

I love hiding in bushes in the Assassin’s Creed games. I’ve said before I’d like to have environmental features you can interact with. Star Wars: The Old Republic allowed Smugglers to take cover behind objects to get defense bonuses (so there is precedent for something similar in an MMORPG). I’d like if you could do something similar for stealth. And don’t limit it to Rogues; let everyone do it to a degree, though maybe Rogues get more out of it (like a damage bonus on a surprise attack).

Enigmatic Sage

so they turned bushes into a stealth mechanic for an MMORPG... interesting. I can see some MMORPGS following suit with something like that. Don't think it would suit all MMORPG's though. Stealth and stealth classes are one of those things that can make and/or break a PvP based game.

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

so they turned bushes into a stealth mechanic for an MMORPG... interesting. I can see some MMORPGS following suit with something like that. Don't think it would suit all MMORPG's though. Stealth and stealth classes are one of those things that can make and/or break a PvP based game.

I don't know for sure that the LOL MMO would have bushes, but I just would bet heavily on it.
Click bait title was just to get the topic going.

I agree it would not suit every MMO, but I have thought since I first played LOL like a decade ago, the bushes were the best idea in the game. Ever since then I have been wondering why no MMO has taken the idea on.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

so they turned bushes into a stealth mechanic for an MMORPG... interesting. I can see some MMORPGS following suit with something like that. Don't think it would suit all MMORPG's though. Stealth and stealth classes are one of those things that can make and/or break a PvP based game.

I don't know for sure that the LOL MMO would have bushes, but I just would bet heavily on it.
Click bait title was just to get the topic going.

I agree it would not suit every MMO, but I have thought since I first played LOL like a decade ago, the bushes were the best idea in the game. Ever since then I have been wondering why no MMO has taken the idea on.

lol, click bait worked!

As fun as hiding in a bush with your nameplate above your head for everyone to see is fun and all thinking you're being sneaky... lol

It would be interesting to see something like that if the bushes are large enough.. Maybe they'd have to patches of over sized bushes everywhere and it would turn into a game of Jurassic park raptor pen.. lol
I could stealth mechanics being extremely over powered from the visibility curtain mechanic of being in the bushes. Maybe they're adding in wards and/or detection abilities too. to spy in said bushes.. starting to see the issue now with placements.

Some games are developing mechanics such as eyesight into races and classes, where if enemies are outside a specific range, you are unable to target them and see their nameplates on top of their characters and as a name plate for your targeting for your UI that shows hp, stats, name etc

You may be able to see a group of players run by, but you wont be able to exploit the games selection options to figure out who is who.

Could be interesting to see how it pans out.

Blandmarrow

Only issue I see is that wherever those bushes are positioned, everyone who does not want to engage in PvP will just avoid that space all together. Basically it creates a path players will follow because they know where people will be waiting.

Enigmatic Sage

imagine walking into an open area with a bunch of bushes spaced out in branched pathways with your party...

be all like " well, we're going to get ganked, but from where... LOL "

Vhaeyne

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Only issue I see is that wherever those bushes are positioned, everyone who does not want to engage in PvP will just avoid that space all together. Basically it creates a path players will follow because they know where people will be waiting.

Yeah, ideally they would be placed with "care" taken to place them in a MOBA map. Which may be mission impossible to balance. I am sure it took a lot of testing for riot to figure out where all the bushes go in LOL. Maybe that is the reason we don't see the bushes used at open-world scale.

Perhaps a spell similar to the effect @bloodprophet mentioned from APOC is best solution.

Maup

I mean having bushes that requires you to get close to be able to see players inside is also a cool effect. Not sincerely entering the bush to check the players inside but getting close might work.

Enigmatic Sage

Maup wrote: »

I mean having bushes that requires you to get close to be able to see players inside is also a cool effect. Not sincerely entering the bush to check the players inside but getting close might work.

it has potential.
lots of mechanics and abilities to interact with it for different situations other than a hiding spot for surprise attacks and escape routes via line of site pathing

open world strategy vs instanced strategy ( battle grounds, arena, pvp dungeons )

EDIT:

they dont always have to be organic like bushes, they could be fogs, smoke, vapours etc

daveywavey

I was already thinking that it might be a funky way of reducing the shimmer effect from the Rogue Invisibility. Harder to see the outline if you're hiding in the graphics!

Enigmatic Sage

i think submarine stealth classes would be abusive to a mechanic like the bushes.
Better to use a stealth decay as a timed ability as an example or players would just sit there invisible in a gankers paradise ruining players lives for days.

Similar to how league of legends already implements stealth and detection

Voidwalkers

Would be interesting if Ashes also have bushes for camouflage.
Exactly what one would need to ambush a caravan

Enigmatic Sage

Voidwalkers wrote: »

Would be interesting if Ashes also have bushes for camouflage.
Exactly what one would need to ambush a caravan

not sure if it would suit the games current design path. especially with the designs of environments and biomes already.

visibility effects with weather and seasonal effects would better suit the combat style and goals in relation to design.

Enigmatic Sage

In an action-interaction-reaction system (AIR) there could be lots of potential with effects for visibility and eyesight in and out of combat, especially with a stealth decay mechanic.

example using weather interaction:

using heat/fire abilities during the cold or wet weather effects to create fogs and steam vapours.

same can be said for biome interaction if no significant seasonal change

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

In an action-interaction-reaction system (AIR) there could be lots of potential with effects for visibility and eyesight in and out of combat, especially with a stealth decay mechanic.

example using weather interaction:

using heat/fire abilities during the cold or wet weather effects to create fogs and steam vapours.

same can be said for biome interaction if no significant seasonal change

could be cool. I always liked how FFXI's weather was important. The next natural evolution of that would be things like what you are saying, Instead of just flat elemental buffs.

Also I have played FFXIV for years and never once seen the weather do anything game changing. Yet the game acts like their is a weather system under the hood that does something. I hope that don't end up the case for ashes.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Climate
They say its going to do something.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

In an action-interaction-reaction system (AIR) there could be lots of potential with effects for visibility and eyesight in and out of combat, especially with a stealth decay mechanic.

example using weather interaction:

using heat/fire abilities during the cold or wet weather effects to create fogs and steam vapours.

same can be said for biome interaction if no significant seasonal change

could be cool. I always liked how FFXI's weather was important. The next natural evolution of that would be things like what you are saying, Instead of just flat elemental buffs.

Also I have played FFXIV for years and never once seen the weather do anything game changing. Yet the game acts like their is a weather system under the hood that does something. I hope that don't end up the case for ashes.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Climate
They say its going to do something.

I think there was something mentioned about spells and environment/biome interaction in the one of the videos, i'll see if I can find it again, lol

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne
Jeff Bard mentions how some skills will be affected by the environment or what's going on in the environment when answering the question about skill restrictions

which leaves thing quite imaginative in wondering about environment (biome, weather, season) interaction with specific abilities and types.

perhaps having molten earth ground effect could potentially cause smoldering/smoke in wet/cold environments.

just speculation on my part

starts around at 1:13:32

https://youtu.be/YGQWEQK2iWI?t=4412

Vhaeyne

@Enigmatic Sage Would be cool. Seems like they are just kicking the idea around at this point.
Which is fair. I would just like to hear a little more dedication around the idea. Jeff did not seem as excited about the idea as he was just open to it.

In the case of FFXI, it seems like they built a lot of the game world around weather.
In FFXIV it looks like they started to continue that tradition, but cut it out when they decided to be more like WOW.

Also WOW used to have some of these ideas, but they got scrapped from what I understand.

I know there ends up being a lot of things DEVs want, but end up getting scraped due to time and man power. I would not be surprised if good ideas like this start to get cut closer to launch.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Enigmatic Sage Would be cool. Seems like they are just kicking the idea around at this point.
Which is fair. I would just like to hear a little more dedication around the idea. Jeff did not seem as excited about the idea as he was just open to it.

In the case of FFXI, it seems like they built a lot of the game world around weather.
In FFXIV it looks like they started to continue that tradition, but cut it out when they decided to be more like WOW.

Also WOW used to have some of these ideas, but they got scrapped from what I understand.

I know there ends up being a lot of things DEVs want, but end up getting scraped due to time and man power. I would not be surprised if good ideas like this start to get cut closer to launch.

true! I'm new here and don't know the dev's well enough to understand their intent behind, but even it's just an idea for now, that's still cool to me.


never played the final fantasy mmo's, so i'll have to take your word on it I did hear they went the path of themepark to save their game to compete with that Activision market from WoW.

I'm sure blizzard tried many things over the years. I recall around the end of WOTLK when Activision was slowly beginning its corporate take over, they had some idea's of what to do next in regards to cataclysm and beyond. This upset a lot of their fan base, but I wont get into my disgust for corporations and influence in the gaming industry by examples Activision, Bethesda, Electronic Arts etc... lol

But I will say in terms of a spectrum for gamers are either:

1. unaware
2. aware and dont care and are part of the problem
3. aware and seeing the trends in the industry and saddened by over hyped games failing for profit and sales.
4. disgusted and fed up

Going back to design choices and trying new mechanics out with new tech. Those corporations were more focused on why spend money and advance the tech when we can just turn profits instead by keeping the gaming industry in a plateau of standards and capitalize on that.

Wow is cool if you look at the game's design in terms of table top gaming and miniatures as I believe Metzens influence and passion really drove blizzards early years fan base forward into their games and studios success.

So yeah, you're right, it's not always about what dev's want and are able to produce via manpower and dedication to their promises of a crowd supported game. But, if the idea's and precursors are not properly sewn into the code in early development, it's not always feasible in late stages without having to go back and rework everything which could be even more costly.

It's important to get the idea's in early development stages so they can properly see what a final product can support and develop accordingly.

consultant

Riot actually bought out a block game called Hytale looks like mine craft but MMO had 2.5 million people already registered for it looks pretty cool actually.

Lore Dynamic

I kinda brought up the question about hiding in bushes or behind trees (or using a special emote) to hide the name plate from nearby players, in this discussion topic:

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47193/hiding-emotes-from-players-bandits#latest

I still would really like to see this implemented. Especially since Ashes is going to be an open-world PvP game. It's good for both aggressive & passive players.

Vhaeyne

consultant wrote: »

Riot actually bought out a block game called Hytale looks like mine craft but MMO had 2.5 million people already registered for it looks pretty cool actually.

I did not know Riot bought Hytale. Lets hope they don't ruin it. All Hytale has to do to be successful in my opinion is have better multi CPU support and mod support than Minecraft.

bigepeen

I like this idea. It gives every class a way to use stealth situationally, and could lead to some very interesting scenarios. My favorite environments in MMOs have always been dense environments with lots of sharp changes in elevation, huge trees and roots, and other stuff that obstructs sight. This is about the same as having bushes to hide in.

McMackMuck

I like the idea of being able to hide in a bush, it adds a new dimension for Caravan PvP especially.

However, I can foresee scenarios where hiding in bushes would change intended gameplay for the worse. They work in LoL because logging out during a battle achieves nothing, other than annoying your team mates. In AoC logging out can be a valid tactic.

I wouldn't want bushes to be used as a way to buy yourself a few seconds before log out persistence times out. This might allow corrupted players to avoid justice, or a green who has just picked up valuable gatherables to avoid death drops.

Vhaeyne

McMackMuck wrote: »

I like the idea of being able to hide in a bush, it adds a new dimension for Caravan PvP especially.

However, I can foresee scenarios where hiding in bushes would change intended gameplay for the worse. They work in LoL because logging out during a battle achieves nothing, other than annoying your team mates. In AoC logging out can be a valid tactic.

I wouldn't want bushes to be used as a way to buy yourself a few seconds before log out persistence times out. This might allow corrupted players to avoid justice, or a green who has just picked up valuable gatherables to avoid death drops.

That is just the type of valid and interesting point that I did not consider. Part of the reason I created the thread.

Players are going to be doing that anyway, but you are right it will make it easier.

A possible counter would be to not make it possible to log out in a bush or just make it take 30-60 seconds extra while in a bush. Alt-f4ing of course would keep your player in the world able to get killed for that time allowing them to be killed with no defense.