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Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Questions / giving opinions on Subscription
Lordignn
Member
Hi, i'm a new follow from SEA. i'm curious on the Subscription based game system. Meaning, what was the reason behind the Subscription choice instead of a Free (With premium servers) or a 1 time pay game. 'Cause in my own opinion, a Subscription based game will generally only be populated for a few weeks/ months if the community goes well, and after that it's just really low number of players. Besides a One time Pay game or a Free to play (but have premium servers like Runescape), which players can just go back to the game when ever they like it without having to pay multiple times.
From my own gaming community friends (20+ age in Indonesia) most of them prefer to play Free games or (if the game is like Really good or hyped, they would pay to buy the game. but one time pay only). A Subscription game would generally be avoided since, well.. not everyone has the money to spend on games most of the times.
That's all, i'm curious on the thought process of choosing the Subscription option instead of the other 2.
And i would also like to hear from the community on this topic
-Lordignn (pron. Lore Dine)
From my own gaming community friends (20+ age in Indonesia) most of them prefer to play Free games or (if the game is like Really good or hyped, they would pay to buy the game. but one time pay only). A Subscription game would generally be avoided since, well.. not everyone has the money to spend on games most of the times.
That's all, i'm curious on the thought process of choosing the Subscription option instead of the other 2.
And i would also like to hear from the community on this topic
-Lordignn (pron. Lore Dine)
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Subscription games fail because they suck and not because of the subscription itself. The subscription model is the most fair to both players and developers.
Gaming is a luxury and unfortunately if you cannot afford it then that just sucks, but subscriptions are the best way to monetize MMORPGs.
I Understand the hidden costs behind running the game but, that doesn't necessarily have to cut off those players who are low on budget. Saying gaming is a luxury is both a true and false statement, why? 'cause gaming should be able to be accessed by everyone as an "Entertainment" or a Vacation one could say if it's an RPG in a fantasy world. But also "Premium" gaming (with better experience etc) is something that someone has to pay for, since all the thought process and all the progress making the best gaming experience possible starting from 0 till finish is something that is really special.
But, like what i mentioned before. A Free to play server and a Premium server is also a possible choice, since those who are low on budget can participate and play the game. but Also having a premium server which have extra features and better experience (or like in Free to play, not all content can be accessed) can also be put for those who really want to be into the game.
neither electrical entertainment nor vacation ca be acced by everyone
games, for the most part, aren't made to offer the best experience possible. They are made to generate money primarily.
Offering a good experience is just a means to that end / nice to have
You're suggesting that Intrepid designs a whole new business model for people who can't afford to pay a subscription and let those servers run even if it means that those servers will not bring a profit?
This idea of free and premium servers just doesn't sound good. Sounds like additional work for the developers for little to no return.
Also, the subscription is there to do more than just provide income, it also creates a barrier to entry for bots and gold sellers.
I'm really sorry, but the subscription model is best for MMORPGs and gaming is indeed a luxury.
If you think Subscription models cause games to fail, I guess you haven't played WoW. Going purely off it's monetary aspect, WoW is 'wildly' successful. Not only does it contain a box cost but it requires a monthly sub.
Furthermore, dividing the servers into f2p and premium with additional features would make the game p2w because at this point you're literally paying for better content than others. AoC is not going to be p2w.
I agree with you, but what i meant by everyone. doesn't mean like literally everyone in the whole planet. some people just want a little short break to get off the real world. and yes only a little precentage of games does give a good experience.
Well again from the title i'm not suggesting anything to intrepid. just having a discussion with what i personally think and what i see most of my friends do. but if saying that gaming IS . no ifs and buts . a luxury, i would have to disagree with you. Maybe better user experience games IS a luxury, but not gaming.
But i do agree that having a Free server is a bit too much of an extra work, but from my perspective it's more a marketing to allow other players to taste what the game is like. And yes about bots etc, yes we all do hate them
Well, people play games is to relax. or just to enjoy another life in another world. while like i said before gaming is not a luxury, but better made games is. you're saying 15$ a month isnt much is literally cutting of those who are on a low budget and just want to have some fun with their friends. AND not every country's economy is the same as the US (and yes i've read it in the Wiki that the prices may be modified to support the following country's economy).
Well no, i've never played WoW. the MMORPGs that i have played are Runescape, Lineage 2, Albion Online.
Having 2 servers that i mentioned means like 2 different worlds, like the server's they're planning to release. Each region has a different world. so the stuff happening in the F2P server doesnt do anything with the Premium server, which has nothing to do with P2W.
Subs are 100% the best payment method for MMORPGs. If Ashes was free-to-play or buy-to-play, I'd actually go as far as to say I currently wouldn't be supporting it because I think those payment methods are massively inferior to sub based and are more likely to result in a dead game.
What other form of entertainment can you get irl for $0.50 (the cost of the sub per day) for potentially 24 hours a day? I personally can't think of anything you can do irl for that cheap. A movie + snacks lasts 2/3 hours and costs more than the monthly sub. A day out shopping would cost multiple times that. A trip in your car for a few hours would cost more in petrol money. $15 a month is a literal bargain.
Hope that helps
On the good service requires sub, i do agree yes. But talking about a 15$ a month again i would say, it wouldn't be the same in every country, but understanding your perspective i would have to agree
Okay! Thankyou for linking that. since all the stuff i've opened are just still some Basic Wikis, Classes, and some In game footages. Will look into it
The hurdle for account spamming, gold farmers, meaningful bans.
Gold Farmers and Spammers have to spend money to create an account, which in turn raises the base price of all items in real-world money and makes it a serious consideration for someone who wants to multiclient 10 accounts logged in at the same time.
This reduces the number of people who will purchase RMT items, which in turn makes it easier to find RMT accounts and ban them.
Subscription also makes it much more difficult for someone if their account gets banned/IP banned because they have to make a new purchase in order to set up an Alternate account.
Finally subcription based game means the studio has no need to "pay to win" their shop - which is what all the other modern MMOs are doing today. And it sucks. And needs to stop. And needs to die.
This is exactly it, it incentivizes legitimate gameplay. I understand that 15 dollars a month may be a high amount for some, but as others have mentioned before this is less than what most would spend during one visit at the movie theatre. My bet would be on that this game will offer much more entertainment over the course of a month than a movie would, or something similar.
Plus the fact that the devs will need to live up to their commitment to keep the game top notch in order to continue to receive profits (considering their are no pay to win or pay for convenience mechanics), I don't really see any detriments here. This seems pretty clearly the best revenue model for an MMORPG, in my eyes.
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I recommend watching the video because its good info; but, I went ahead and pulled the relevant question out of the transcript for you.
"Question: What is the philosophy behind the cash shop? And how will it not destroy a pillar of MMO's visual progression?
Answer: That's a good question. So let me talk about this for a little bit. When it comes to monetization and business model, I believe that the quality of a product should speak for itself and in that regard. That is why I'm confident in the subscription system. It's also why I'm confident in not providing a box cost for the game, there's two reasons for that one. From a. And I'll talk about the cosmetic shop in just a second, I need to lay the foundation for [Laughs] the reasoning. So a box cost is a high barrier of entry, sometimes too high, and I believe in some cases too greedy, as well. That's why I don't want to have a box cost. One, because population of MMORPGs is an important thing to have high, okay? A high population is a lot of fun, especially when there's interconnected systems that provide interdependencies between different demographics of players whether they be PvP oriented, role-play-oriented, PvE oriented, crafting oriented, right? There's many different sub-communities within the MMORPG demographic so you want to have a large influx of players....
I think a sub cost provides both the barrier of entry to prevent some, not all, but mitigate some gold selling bots, whatnotm because there's a cost associated with playing the game. But it's also not too high that it gets on the greedy side or prevents a lot of players from participating and trying the game. And then if the game is good, then people will continue to subscribe. And that subscription provides funding and revenue for the developers to continue a significant content creation and expansion rollout for the game, because content is king and content needs to be developed and that requires money....
...[Laughs] Okay so that's the first thing about subscription. Second thing about. So the cosmetic marketplace. There is a differential. Okay so first of all, let me say this: We are not, I god I hate calling out games, but I will call out BDO. BDO does great things I love BDO it's a very good, well done game. But one thing I couldn't stand about BDO I'm unfortunate to say this is that: "You look like trash unless you spent money in the cosmetic shop". That sucks, to be fair and take that feedback obviously with a grain of salt. However what I would say is in Ashes of Creation there is going to be legendary cosmetics that can be earned and achieved in the game. In the game through the game systems but that's going to take a significant amount of effort and work, okay? And that is going. Those cosmetics are going to be on par with the cosmetics offered in the marketplace, okay? Now with that being said there are different types of players that exist within MMOs there are casuals and there are hardcores. As unfortunate as this to say we as a demographic as an MMORPG community, we are an aging group of people and as long as the cosmetic doesn't present an in-game advantage, some people love collecting cool looking cosmetics and they may not have the time that the in-game provides as a gate to that progression so. [Laughing] The key is to provide both the in-game means to look, you know, what's the word: fabulous[Laughs], for some flair as well as a cosmetic shop in place as well now what that does is it provides additional revenue to the company so that we can continue to fund the development of content as well. And bridge the divide that not having a box cost would have and not having any pay to win mechanics whatsoever. And I will say this a lot of developers and companies have come along in the past and I've been hit by this too and they've said: "We're not going to have pay to win" and then boom they roll out some pay to win. We have consistently said we won't be pay to win and in the pre-orders that we provide and even in the kickstarter there were absolutely zero pay-to-win components whatsoever. So not only will we talk the talk but we will walk the walk as well. And that will maintain its case...
... So to sum that up real quick: subscription pay subscription good, cosmetic cash shop without pay to win components that has a complementary achievement system in game for different types of cosmetics good, and all of that goes to provide content expansions good, yes. Okay."
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Talk:2020-07-25_Live_AMA_with_Steven_Sharif
In this regard i agree that subscription services works better in holding off "rule breakers" and Banning abusers.
I have watched this yesterday yeah, after a Mod linked it. and i do understand on the approach that Steven is coming for. Yet again, as he said that the Prices will be harmonised depending on the occuring country, i wish at least they would do an overall research on the prices based on each country. Since MMORPG is enjoyed because of the MMO, so that more people from many different places can enjoy the game and yet they put a barrier good enough to hold off abusing players.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Subscription_model
I am pretty sure that Steven introduced an economist on staff in one of the early monthly videos where he walked around the studio and introduced everyone. They should perform the relevant research that is necessary for a fair pricing due to local economies. However, using a version for a lower priced area won't let you play on servers that are priced higher such as the U.S. servers.
*Edit*
Found him, its John Moore. He is the Chief Financial Officer and oversees the economic scope of the game.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Intrepid_Studios
John Moore isn't the economist they hired, neither was the economist hired to look at the price calculation for server harmonization.
The economist was hired to build as an advisor in order to build a solid and well balanced ingame economy. Including the regional economic price changes, the changes in values for hunting certificates depending on sales quanity and distance as well as the Kickstarter Stockmarket goal.
That's very cool. They're really putting the effort in!
I'm also in the "P2W must die" camp.
If they want to keep P2W in some parts of the world, then that's fine for them.
My experiences are with mobile gaming over the last 8 years, but the same applies to PC gaming as far as I can see. I deeply resent the F2P trap, where you invest time in a game only to later find out how expensive the monetization is and quit. You can only start playing so many of those games before you start to feel like they are all pointless.
HYPERTHETICALLY, Imagine saying that you're only going to play "Ashes of P2W-ation" until level 20 because that's when the monetization goes beyond your personal threshold of moral indignation. You'd think, actually, I'm not going to play at all so that I don't have to deal with that level of disappointment. You'd also know that the server would slowly die when players hit their own pay barriers and quit.
I'm happy to play in a game where someone is better than me because they put more time in. I don't want to play in games where a toxic personality can use a credit card to increase their importance.
There needs to be a champion for the subscription model in gaming and the profits need to be enough to encourage more subscription model games. I'm hoping that it will be Intrepid Studios.
The subscription model is in my opinion a very well made model. I personally dislike the way that World of Warcraft puts it, where they have the subscription model + buy expansions.
Having a subscription model (with no extra content to buy) is a very sustainable method in game development for income. On the other hand is it also a good model for the players. Okay to be realistic paying 15$ a month to play a game might sound scary if you do not have much funds to spend. But what a big pro is to games that run a subscription model as the core of their income flow is that they want players to keep playing.
Maup what the hell do you mean by "they want players to keep playing" doesn't every game want that?
It is simple, if the company gets most of their income from people playing, that means that they want encourage players to play their game and pay for the monthly fee. How do you do this, by either giving them more than enough content to play or very often update the game with content.
There's two main reasons for people to quit games
- They just straight up dislike the game or tried it out and it seems it isn't for them.
- There is no content left for them to do or there's too much repetitive content.
With a subscription model the first one will definately happen, no matter what the developers do, they can't make it right for everyone. The second reason is something they can do something about. If they want to keep players hooked to their game they need to make sure there's enough content or often release something new for the players to be encouraged again.
Keep in mind the following is a opinion
The way I look at it is having a subscription model for a game is much better for the concurrent playerbase. Also it gives a great opportunity for new players to just try it out for 1 month. This more user friendly towards new players. If I wanna find out if a game is something for me by trying it out myself I'd rather pay $15 to be able to play it 1 month and find out the game isn't for me than paying $60 for access to the game and then find out the game isn't my game.
I don't think you looked at the link I gave you. He is listed as the as the Chief Operating Officer and describes his job as, "As Chief Financial Officer here at Intrepid Studios, it’s my responsibility to oversee the economic scope of our endeavors.". It sounds like you described another economist who has a different purpose.
Economic scope of IS endeavors should include overseeing regional pricing.
IS employee list:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Intrepid_Studios
and the detailed portion:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/John_Moore
A monthly subscription allows the MMO to have a constant flow of income to keep adding new content/updates to the game. A box cost often leads MMO's to take a bad turn into pushing payments (pay to win, convenience or progress) because the playerbase declines after a few years.
If AoC Went with a singular payment, they'd receive alot of money right at the start when everyone is playing, as time goes on, the game will be purchased less and less but updates still have to keep coming and coming for the players who are actively playing and staff has to be paid too. Their only way out is cosmetics shop (which they will have, but i doubt it'll cover all costs) or adding other means to get people to pay real money for stuff.
TL;DR - Subscription based model is almost always the better option to prevent itself from running out of revenue and having to rely on other means of income. Subscriptions allows updates and new content to keep coming for the active playerbase.
Exactly, its within the workload of John Moore or one of his support staff for that matter.
Not the hired economist, which was primarily hired for the consturction of a solid ingame economy.
Which are 2 different people, with 2 completely different focuses for their work.
Also, as noted, some regions may have "harmonized" pricing that would then better reflect their local economies - these regions would then have servers that were separate from the others.
I'm going to go ahead and move this thread on over to our Support & FAQ section and close it out, but please don't hesitate to reach back out if there's anything else we can help answer!