One of the biggest problems I am seeing here and other games is the idea that the game only begins at end game. I think this is a bad premis as the game should start at the beginning and have quality stuff all throughout. If end game is all that matters then there is no need for levels and I would agree. I am just hoping they get back more towards the rpg part and the whole thing is interesting.
I agree this is the problem with the leveling concept in a MMORPG. If its a competitive game, then its all about the end game. Before that, you are either (1) playing at a significant disadvantage, (2) the levels don't mean much, or (3) there is some sort of scaling at play (which, depending on how it is implemented, can potentially detract from the value of the levels and also confuse players who are exposed to end game content too soon).
This is primarily why leveling works better in a RPG but not a MMORPG and why I'm advocating for some strong innovation in this space to dramatically reduce the leveling time and focus it purely into onboarding players to the game, their new class (and in some cases to MMOs).
Much of the exploration and adventure can be had at max level if there is good game design/mechanics in place. You can quest at max level and get some small rewards. You can do a dungeon. You can fight rare monsters/bosses. You can explore the map. You can do world PvP, etc. It's just plain more fun to do this stuff with your full toolkit of abilities (and against equal level players when its PvP).
In my experience, people that claim to like WoW simply had it as their first MMO, and while they were playing it they didnt understand what it got wrong, as they had no point of reference for how else things could be.
I think that it's very immature of you to disregard a person's opinion just because they haven't played the games you have.
I didnt disregard it, I framed it - put it in to context. No opinion is worth anything without proper context, so if anything, adding that context is literally the opposite of disregarding the opinion at hand.
The notion that all opinions should be considered equally without context is false and dangerous. All opinions should be placed in context first, and only then considered.
An opinion without context is of no value, any opinion with proper context has value.
Never claim someone is disregarding an opinion when all they are doing is providing context for said opinion.
Other developers considered it,but saw more negatives to adding it than positives.
Automated PvE group forming systems are something that Blizzard has to take 100% ownership of,since others turned them down for fairly obvious reasons, and Blizzard went full steam ahead on them.
I believe that levels should definitely be in a game this big. Without the leveling system you'd take out motivation (you could argue requirement) to actually play many aspects of the game. without the need to level there is nothing really stopping you from skipping immense portions of the map/game.
We are playing a roleplay game, not just a massively multiplayer one. roleplaying without visible progression to me, seems very unrewarding. The leveling system as I understand it now will give you most, if not all your class abilities by the time you're level 10, as you level you get skill points to customise the direction you want your character to grow towards. It also gives a much larger penalty for killing newer/weaker players with the corruption system, which I am happier for.
I definitely do not want to see alts being able to equip any end game gear. A level requirement for gear is by far the easiest way to stop things like that.
edit: When it comes to a group finding tool. I don't want to have to sit in a node spamming LFM. A notice board request and the ability to remotely remove the note or auto removes upon the content being finished, to me sounds doable. Auto grouping though a UI interface is a bad thing.
I believe that levels should definitely be in a game this big. Without the leveling system you'd take out motivation (you could argue requirement) to actually play many aspects of the game. without the need to level there is nothing really stopping you from skipping immense portions of the map/game.
We are playing a roleplay game, not just a massively multiplayer one. roleplaying without visible progression to me, seems very unrewarding. The leveling system as I understand it now will give you most, if not all your class abilities by the time you're level 10, as you level you get skill points to customise the direction you want your character to grow towards. It also gives a much larger penalty for killing newer/weaker players with the corruption system, which I am happier for.
I definitely do not want to see alts being able to equip any end game gear. A level requirement for gear is by far the easiest way to stop things like that.
Almost everything is already skippable in AoC b/c the real focus of it is on the Nodes and PvP. Narrative quest and the like are completely ignorable and there's even been talk about letting people level solely through crafting if they so choose.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Almost everything is already skippable in AoC b/c the real focus of it is on the Nodes and PvP. Narrative quest and the like are completely ignorable and there's even been talk about letting people level solely through crafting if they so choose.
Well that's not entirely true, you can't advance a node though PvP. Only by going out on the node and gathering/questing. You can't ignore the map.
If people want to craft their way up they can, however it won't be that easy. I assume they'll have to caravan the processed materials into their own stations. To get the recipes they need for crafting, they will have to go out and obtain them themselves, buy them or rely on others to hand them out.
Almost everything is already skippable in AoC b/c the real focus of it is on the Nodes and PvP. Narrative quest and the like are completely ignorable and there's even been talk about letting people level solely through crafting if they so choose.
Well that's not entirely true, you can't advance a node though PvP.
Show me a reference or don't post pointless comments, please.
"Citizen and non-citizen player activity (questing, gathering, raiding, etc.) within a node's ZOI counts toward that particular node’s advancement (progression). Nodes have seven (7) stages of advancement, with experience thresholds for each stage. When a Node reaches the experience required for its current stage, it advances to the next stage"
Well that's not entirely true, you can't advance a node though PvP. Only by going out on the node and gathering/questing. You can't ignore the map.
If people want to craft their way up they can, however it won't be that easy. I assume they'll have to caravan the processed materials into their own stations. To get the recipes they need for crafting, they will have to go out and obtain them themselves, buy them or rely on others to hand them out.
You can advance through PvP...that's what attacking caravans are for.
As for everything else you mentioned, none of it requires hard character levels like that found in WoW, SWTOR, ESO, etc.
There's really no system in AoC that needs levels like that and nothing stopping Intrepid if they instead decided to focus on a plethora of horizontal progression over a, relatively singular, vertical one.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
@Maezriel I'll ask you the same as Noaani. only If you can show me a reference on caravan destruction giving node xp I'll accept I'm wrong.
for requirement on hard level? I never said they had to be in there, I stated my opinion on why they should be. Although if you take out hard levels then you'd need to make a while new system on gaining skill points, which i will say they have claimed to be the horizontal. "Our player class advancement follows both a vertical progression in the traditional leveling sense, as well as a horizontal skill customization platform"
@Maezriel I'll ask you the same as Noaani. only If you can show me a reference on caravan destruction giving node xp I'll accept I'm wrong.
for requirement on hard level? I never said they had to be in there, I stated my opinion on why they should be. Although if you take out hard levels then you'd need to make a while new system on gaining skill points, which i will say they have claimed to be the horizontal. "Our player class advancement follows both a vertical progression in the traditional leveling sense, as well as a horizontal skill customization platform"
As I read this, Caravans are quest objectives and there's nothing showing that you won't gain experience from completing a Caravan and if you do then it stands to reason the XP would be taxed for your Node just like everything else.
I'm not saying you can go out and farm players to advance your Node (I have no evidence for or against that) but until otherwise stated I assume Caravans will play a large role in Node advancement and Caravans are PvP.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
I was talking about the fact that PvP generates experience, and any experience earned in a nodes ZoI imparts experience on to that node.
Thus, if you PvP in a node, you are generating experience for that node.
As Maezriel pointed out there is no evidence that PvP fights generate node xp.
@Maezriel Quest caravans would generate node xp because they are in fact quests, which i said does give node xp. I don't read that to extend to player caravans giving xp though but I kinda take your point that caravans are PvP zones
@Noaani Well if you don't provide factual evidence to support your argument then your opinion doesn't have the weight to call me wrong. That's fine but until someone does find me the quote, I'll still make the claim based on what I have read which is that PvP fights alone do not contribute to node progression.
I'm happy to be proved wrong, but just saying it's wrong is lazy.
An RPG where I don't feel that I'm getting stronger as a character as I go along doesn't feel like I'm going anywhere, which I can't agree with.
People say they want to contribute to nodes during the leveling process. And they want to participate in sandbox content, which is largely PvP. But none of that is possible if low-level characters are unable to compete with higher level players. And it's possible that the early crafting and gear economy could be flooded and trivialized by a few max level crafters.
Now, there are a few solution to deal with that problem. I don't really have a preference for any particular one at the moment. So I'll just mention the two most obvious ones: Level-scaling, which has many possible implementations that I'm not going to get into. And level bracketing, by which I mean every 5-10 levels is encapsulated/insulated from all the other levels. For example, each Caravan could be specific to one level bracket, so you have the level 10-20 people fighting over different caravans than the level 50 people. And then imagine a similar separation for every other aspect of the game, like questing, node progression, and if possible... the entire economy.
I don't think it should be possible for a level 50 friend to powerfarm all of your materials/gear for you in 30 minutes, invalidating every leveling reward except EXP.
Level scaling was ok in Warhammer Age of Reckoning (WAR). If I remember right, your character would be boosted the level of the zone you were in. HP, damage and chances to hit were increased, but you didn't get the skills you would normally have unlocked by leveling. I think higher level characters were deleveled to the max for the zone, but I'm not sure if I remember that correctly.
Levels are always ok and a good way to enjoy progression, in PvE... And that's because mobs stay "where they belong". Players are not leashed that way and that's when level differences become problematic. Too often a lower character can't land a hit or spell on a higher one, and if they are lucky enough to do so, it does diminished damage. Double whammy. Inherent defence and spell resistance on top of higher hit points, so not even a group of lower levels is a menace. If these parts of the level difference were flatten it would be a good start. Make leveleling about getting more options.
Sure, a tank with better armour and defence should receive less damage as he level, but a mage in robe? If the high level doesn't have any fire resistance why should a spell of that element do less damage on him?
I would go as far as to extend this to the mobs. Although much easier to dispatch of, low level mobs shouldn't be trivialized or ignored, they should always be considered a source of danger, one that could escalate out of control if not careful enough.
I'm happy to be proved wrong, but just saying it's wrong is lazy.
I dont have the time to go through hours of video to find the specific point where Steven said that PvP generates experience, and that all activities conducted in a nodes ZoI that generate experience send a portion of that to the node.
If you want to carry on assuming you are right after being told outright that you are not, that is on you, not on me for not having the time to find the information you have missed.
So far I can see no evidence that PvP fights contribute to node progression. Back to the topic I suppose.
In RPGs, I strongly feel that you need to feel like you're progressing and getting more powerful as you go through your adventure. Hands down the easiest, most sensible way to track that would be through experience gained through combat and completing quests. This experience contributes to your adventuring (or combat) level.
It's the same with the artisan classes. You want to feel like you're becoming a more experienced crafter/gatherer as you collect and produce more/better things. Again the easiest way to do that is to gain experience for doing these things and accumulate an artisan level, separate to your combat(adventuring) level.
I think this is the most suitable approach to RPGs, even if it's not something new.
Comments
I agree this is the problem with the leveling concept in a MMORPG. If its a competitive game, then its all about the end game. Before that, you are either (1) playing at a significant disadvantage, (2) the levels don't mean much, or (3) there is some sort of scaling at play (which, depending on how it is implemented, can potentially detract from the value of the levels and also confuse players who are exposed to end game content too soon).
This is primarily why leveling works better in a RPG but not a MMORPG and why I'm advocating for some strong innovation in this space to dramatically reduce the leveling time and focus it purely into onboarding players to the game, their new class (and in some cases to MMOs).
Much of the exploration and adventure can be had at max level if there is good game design/mechanics in place. You can quest at max level and get some small rewards. You can do a dungeon. You can fight rare monsters/bosses. You can explore the map. You can do world PvP, etc. It's just plain more fun to do this stuff with your full toolkit of abilities (and against equal level players when its PvP).
The notion that all opinions should be considered equally without context is false and dangerous. All opinions should be placed in context first, and only then considered.
An opinion without context is of no value, any opinion with proper context has value.
Never claim someone is disregarding an opinion when all they are doing is providing context for said opinion.
Other developers considered it,but saw more negatives to adding it than positives.
Automated PvE group forming systems are something that Blizzard has to take 100% ownership of,since others turned them down for fairly obvious reasons, and Blizzard went full steam ahead on them.
We are playing a roleplay game, not just a massively multiplayer one. roleplaying without visible progression to me, seems very unrewarding. The leveling system as I understand it now will give you most, if not all your class abilities by the time you're level 10, as you level you get skill points to customise the direction you want your character to grow towards. It also gives a much larger penalty for killing newer/weaker players with the corruption system, which I am happier for.
I definitely do not want to see alts being able to equip any end game gear. A level requirement for gear is by far the easiest way to stop things like that.
edit: When it comes to a group finding tool. I don't want to have to sit in a node spamming LFM. A notice board request and the ability to remotely remove the note or auto removes upon the content being finished, to me sounds doable. Auto grouping though a UI interface is a bad thing.
Almost everything is already skippable in AoC b/c the real focus of it is on the Nodes and PvP. Narrative quest and the like are completely ignorable and there's even been talk about letting people level solely through crafting if they so choose.
Well that's not entirely true, you can't advance a node though PvP. Only by going out on the node and gathering/questing. You can't ignore the map.
If people want to craft their way up they can, however it won't be that easy. I assume they'll have to caravan the processed materials into their own stations. To get the recipes they need for crafting, they will have to go out and obtain them themselves, buy them or rely on others to hand them out.
Show me a reference or don't post pointless comments, please.
"Citizen and non-citizen player activity (questing, gathering, raiding, etc.) within a node's ZOI counts toward that particular node’s advancement (progression). Nodes have seven (7) stages of advancement, with experience thresholds for each stage. When a Node reaches the experience required for its current stage, it advances to the next stage"
You can advance through PvP...that's what attacking caravans are for.
As for everything else you mentioned, none of it requires hard character levels like that found in WoW, SWTOR, ESO, etc.
There's really no system in AoC that needs levels like that and nothing stopping Intrepid if they instead decided to focus on a plethora of horizontal progression over a, relatively singular, vertical one.
for requirement on hard level? I never said they had to be in there, I stated my opinion on why they should be. Although if you take out hard levels then you'd need to make a while new system on gaining skill points, which i will say they have claimed to be the horizontal.
"Our player class advancement follows both a vertical progression in the traditional leveling sense, as well as a horizontal skill customization platform"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Quests#Quest_driven_caravans
As I read this, Caravans are quest objectives and there's nothing showing that you won't gain experience from completing a Caravan and if you do then it stands to reason the XP would be taxed for your Node just like everything else.
I'm not saying you can go out and farm players to advance your Node (I have no evidence for or against that) but until otherwise stated I assume Caravans will play a large role in Node advancement and Caravans are PvP.
I was talking about the fact that PvP generates experience, and any experience earned in a nodes ZoI imparts experience on to that node.
Thus, if you PvP in a node, you are generating experience for that node.
As Maezriel pointed out there is no evidence that PvP fights generate node xp.
@Maezriel Quest caravans would generate node xp because they are in fact quests, which i said does give node xp. I don't read that to extend to player caravans giving xp though but I kinda take your point that caravans are PvP zones
We have been told that anything that generates experience in a nodes ZoI generates an amount of experience for that node.
We have been told that PvP generates experience.
I'm not going to find the quotes for you, because I am not your secretary.
I'm happy to be proved wrong, but just saying it's wrong is lazy.
An RPG where I don't feel that I'm getting stronger as a character as I go along doesn't feel like I'm going anywhere, which I can't agree with.
Level scaling was ok in Warhammer Age of Reckoning (WAR). If I remember right, your character would be boosted the level of the zone you were in. HP, damage and chances to hit were increased, but you didn't get the skills you would normally have unlocked by leveling. I think higher level characters were deleveled to the max for the zone, but I'm not sure if I remember that correctly.
Levels are always ok and a good way to enjoy progression, in PvE... And that's because mobs stay "where they belong". Players are not leashed that way and that's when level differences become problematic. Too often a lower character can't land a hit or spell on a higher one, and if they are lucky enough to do so, it does diminished damage. Double whammy. Inherent defence and spell resistance on top of higher hit points, so not even a group of lower levels is a menace. If these parts of the level difference were flatten it would be a good start. Make leveleling about getting more options.
Sure, a tank with better armour and defence should receive less damage as he level, but a mage in robe? If the high level doesn't have any fire resistance why should a spell of that element do less damage on him?
I would go as far as to extend this to the mobs. Although much easier to dispatch of, low level mobs shouldn't be trivialized or ignored, they should always be considered a source of danger, one that could escalate out of control if not careful enough.
I dont have the time to go through hours of video to find the specific point where Steven said that PvP generates experience, and that all activities conducted in a nodes ZoI that generate experience send a portion of that to the node.
If you want to carry on assuming you are right after being told outright that you are not, that is on you, not on me for not having the time to find the information you have missed.
In RPGs, I strongly feel that you need to feel like you're progressing and getting more powerful as you go through your adventure. Hands down the easiest, most sensible way to track that would be through experience gained through combat and completing quests. This experience contributes to your adventuring (or combat) level.
It's the same with the artisan classes. You want to feel like you're becoming a more experienced crafter/gatherer as you collect and produce more/better things. Again the easiest way to do that is to gain experience for doing these things and accumulate an artisan level, separate to your combat(adventuring) level.
I think this is the most suitable approach to RPGs, even if it's not something new.