It sucks but Tab > Action

Tab > action
This is an MMO which means you need players to keep playing and unfortunately due to the current economic situation across the world right now your population doesn't have funds to uograde computers in households.
I would rather see Intrepid Studios succeed, stay in business and give the MMO populations hope that there is a company that is not trying take all of our money and time.
Maybe the sequel can be action combat or they can do a Battle Royale later once the company has made it 3 months past release date of the game

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Vhaeyne

@fight

It goes both ways my man. I understand wanting what is best for the game. I find myself arguing that very point in so many other threads about so many issues.

It is just not a very once sided case when it comes to MMO combat systems. It is not clear to me that by fully embracing TT over AC you would gain a more steady audience. It may very well do the opposite.

A lot of people have seen too much TT in their life and will praise anything that does something different as a breath of fresh air. Blade and Soul, Black Desert Online, Guild Wars 2 are prime examples of this. Games that I feel lack any substance, but get constant praise for doing something different and fresh with their combat systems.

It sounds like you think TT is a safe bet, but I think every possible combat system is a gamble. The only thing I think that changes the odds in that gamble is the games other systems that interact with the combat system. Like it or not in ashes we have more systems based around PvP combat than PvE combat. The PvP crowd tends to like AC more than TT. Thus I think trying a hybrid system the way AoC is proposing is a great gamble. It allows players the freedom to choose their own playstyle.

We give Intrepid the benefit of the doubt that they will balance all other aspects of the game and make them enjoyable. We should not being seeing their proposed hybrid combat system as an exception to this just because some people have had bad experiences with AC in the past.

Noaani

fight wrote: »

Tab > action

I see no issues with this assertion.

PoliceGirl

TT? It's ok and I get what's good and functional about it. AC? Way more of a gameplay rush.

Noaani wrote: »

fight wrote: »

Tab > action

I see no issues with this assertion.

One issue I've had is that with TT it begins to feel like I am running a program, not playing a video game. With action combat there's no question.

Just sayin...

Noaani

PoliceGirl wrote: »

TT? It's ok and I get what's good and functional about it. AC? Way more of a gameplay rush.

Noaani wrote: »

fight wrote: »

Tab > action

I see no issues with this assertion.

One issue I've had is that with TT it begins to feel like I am running a program, not playing a video game. With action combat there's no question.

Just sayin...

I don't necessarily disagree, but where tab target shines is in what it enables from a content perspective.

If you're playing a game and killing a lot of base population, you will have a lot more fun with action combat. If you're making a game and want to add in the best content you can, tab target will allow you to do that.

Kionashi

Noaani wrote: »

PoliceGirl wrote: »

TT? It's ok and I get what's good and functional about it. AC? Way more of a gameplay rush.

Noaani wrote: »

fight wrote: »

Tab > action

I see no issues with this assertion.

One issue I've had is that with TT it begins to feel like I am running a program, not playing a video game. With action combat there's no question.

Just sayin...

I don't necessarily disagree, but where tab target shines is in what it enables from a content perspective.

If you're playing a game and killing a lot of base population, you will have a lot more fun with action combat. If you're making a game and want to add in the best content you can, tab target will allow you to do that.

I don't get it...why action = killing a lot of base population? and why tab allows adding the best content they can?

Vhaeyne

Kionashi wrote: »

I don't get it...why action = killing a lot of base population? and why tab allows adding the best content they can?

@Noaani and myself have been going over a lot of those points in the other thread the past few days if you want to read that. Conversation starts here:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/280284/#Comment_280284

We are both kind of wordy though.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Kionashi wrote: »

I don't get it...why action = killing a lot of base population? and why tab allows adding the best content they can?

@Noaani and myself have been going over a lot of those points in the other thread the past few days if you want to read that. Conversation starts here:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/280284/#Comment_280284

We are both kind of wordy though.

Indeed.

The basics of it are that action combat takes more of a players attention during combat than tab target, so when killing mobs that have no interest or mechanic to them at all (base population), action combat will be more enjoyable for most people.

On the other hand, since tab target combat does require less player attention during combat, developers are able to place mechanics on content that require more of the players attention than they would be able to do in an action combat game.

It is important to note in this that since developers could create content that players are unable to defeat in either action or tab, simply saying that this means action combat is harder doesn't work - as both action and tab can be exactly as hard as the developers want it to be - when content is taken in to consideration (ignoring the fact that developers often miss the exact difficulty target they are aiming for).

There is nuance to the discussion (hence the wordy thread linked above), but this is the absolute basics.

PoliceGirl

Sup @Noaani

On the other hand, since tab target combat does require less player attention during combat, developers are able to place mechanics on content that require more of the players attention than they would be able to do in an action combat game.

Fair point. What is an example of this kind of content that you say developers are able to place because the combat system is tab targeted and not action targeted?

Enigmatic Sage

To be honest, I believe this game will be quite successful and fun regardless of the spectrum of TT vs AC.

I believe it comes down to archetypes and abilities as mentioned in another thread. The real question to differentiate some variables is:

Do you need to have a target for the ability to function?

with a variable like that, it could be a lot easier to determine viable abilities and playstyle for each archetype/class for the players preference.

example:
1. you more than likely will not and should not need to have a target in order to use a traditional melee ability
2. you may need a target for a tracking ability/spell, depending on how it functions (but there is ways around this, depending on degree of tracking)

very curious to see the spectrum of abilities for this games design

NchDu

I am not a fan of action combat cause most implementations I`ve seen and played are heavy AoE-based. As I wrote in another thread most classes in AC are like flamethrowers with their Cone damage. In Pvp scenarios, it is more about standing in less AoE than avoiding AoE as a whole.

I really liked the combat system of GW2 aka TT with iframe dodge. It`s fast, impactful with the extension of the extra defend mechanism. (by comparison to CCs)

Noaani

PoliceGirl wrote: »

Fair point. What is an example of this kind of content that you say developers are able to place because the combat system is tab targeted and not action targeted?

There is no point in giving you a single example.

Basically, the less attention a combat system requires from players, the more attention the content that combat system is used on can require. This could be more mechanics in an encounter, but it could also just be how those mechanics are tuned, or how readily available to players information is.

It should also perhaps be pointed out that we are talking generalizations here - there is no reason someone couldn't make an action combat game with a combat system that was very simple, and then provide players with very complex content and still have an enjoyable game.

Now, some people would prefer the combat system to be what demands their attention, as opposed to the content. These people are not wrong.

Other people would prefer the content demand their attention, not the combat system. These people are also not wrong.

It is very much a case of preference. I personally prefer the content to require a good amount of my attention, as I find that makes the game more varied - each encounter feels far more unique to participate in than encounters in games where the combat system was all that required attention - but I more than understand this is not the case for everyone.

PoliceGirl

Noaani wrote: »

PoliceGirl wrote: »

Fair point. What is an example of this kind of content that you say developers are able to place because the combat system is tab targeted and not action targeted?

There is no point in giving you a single example.

Basically, the less attention a combat system requires from players, the more attention the content that combat system is used on can require. This could be more mechanics in an encounter, but it could also just be how those mechanics are tuned, or how readily available to players information is.

It should also perhaps be pointed out that we are talking generalizations here - there is no reason someone couldn't make an action combat game with a combat system that was very simple, and then provide players with very complex content and still have an enjoyable game.

Now, some people would prefer the combat system to be what demands their attention, as opposed to the content. These people are not wrong.

Other people would prefer the content demand their attention, not the combat system. These people are also not wrong.

It is very much a case of preference. I personally prefer the content to require a good amount of my attention, as I find that makes the game more varied - each encounter feels far more unique to participate in than encounters in games where the combat system was all that required attention - but I more than understand this is not the case for everyone.

I hear yah. What is one of your favorite raid boss fights?

rikardp98

I don't know why people start talking about a boss encounters difficulty when talking about the combat system.

What is important when talking about a combat system is the overall engagement of that system and how it feels from a "day to day" basis. And for me, action combat is much more engaging and more impact full that any tab targeting system.

Now, boss mechanics will be tailored to the combat system, and the difficulty will be set by the developers (as best as they can), and I'm confident that IS will be able to make very difficulty bosses that only the best of the best can kill even with a ac/hybrid system.

A boss encounter isn't good or bad because of the combat system, it's good or bad depending on the developers skill in making an interesting and fun boss mechanics.

Vhaeyne

@PoliceGirl

First rule of EQ2 raiding: No one is allowed to talk about it the specifics of EQ2 raiding.

JK @Noaani

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

First rule of EQ2 raiding: No one is allowed to talk about it the specifics of EQ2 raiding.

Not far from the truth.

As an example, I really enjoyed Byzola in EQ2's Shard of Hate, but there is absolutely no information on the main mechanics of the fight anywhere at all. There is some info out there on the fight - but this doesn't amount to much more than the fact that it exists.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

I don't know why people start talking about a boss encounters difficulty when talking about the combat system.

You answered your own question

Now, boss mechanics will be tailored to the combat system, and the difficulty will be set by the developers

If you are someone that enjoys good boss fights, tab target is for you.

If you are not, action combat may well be more your thing.

rikardp98

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

I don't know why people start talking about a boss encounters difficulty when talking about the combat system.

You answered your own question

Now, boss mechanics will be tailored to the combat system, and the difficulty will be set by the developers

If you are someone that enjoys good boss fights, tab target is for you.

If you are not, action combat may well be more your thing.

I think that the combat system is its own thing and boss mechanics is its own thing.

Developers should first make a satisfying combat system and then think about boss mechanics, and not the other way around.

I do agree with you that most action combat raids haven't been close to tab targeting raids (but I have never really played any AC mmos on a high lvl), but I also believe that AC raids can be much much more, and compete with tab targeting raids.

I hope IS will make some epic and difficult raids that we all are going to enjoy, and a combat system that is engaging and fun.

Ostaff

and yet another thread on this issue (sigh) Reminds me of the song "Some people just wanna be heard"

bloodprophet

Like when people were multiboxing the multiboxing threads

Gbolt

To me if gameplay sucks, it wont matter whether its TT or AC, it will get boring fast. If gameplay is awesome, either will be good enough.
For example, GW2 looks amazing and has some nice AC skills, but I feel there is nothing meaningful to do in that game and I just get bored real fast.

P.S. But Im yet to see AC done right (lots of people praising black desert as having very good AC, but for me it was just flashy and didnt feel that great. You could kill mobs so easily that it got boring).

Child Item