RNG Gear Progression

Blip

Have not found anything on this except a random YouTube video.
But will there be RNG progression in Ashes?

e.g: Take your Legendary Gear and enhance it?
like in BDO or something like that?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me he was wrong?!!

Biccus

I could be wrong but I think only enchanting can be applied to complete items.
Now when it comes to crafting gear I’m pretty certain the crafter can decide the look of the item, they also get to move the stats of the item around to some degree so it’s not random

Blip

Biccus wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think only enchanting can be applied to complete items.
Now when it comes to crafting gear I’m pretty certain the crafter can decide the look of the item, they also get to move the stats of the item around to some degree so it’s not random

Enchanting and stat reallocation is fine and relay cool, what am thinking of is like.
Your weapon can be +1, +2, +3 and so 4th and you have a chance to fail even tough you spent the resources and time to get them. And end up with nothing for your investment of time and money\ resources.

Biccus

So this is from the wiki, I think it’s what you’re talking about.
“Vertical enchantments are a power progression for a crafted item. More damage or mitigations, added effects or bonuses. Vertical enchantments include risks.
There isn't RNG in crafting but there may be a small amount of RNG in enchanting.
Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.”

I’m definitely not sold on the idea but I’m willing to see how it works

Blip

Ohe god no!
I get that bad BDO feeling already take away durability but at least don`t destroy the item.
This is the first thing in the AoC design i don`t like, go figure it be the same type of system that made me stop playing BDO.

Hope they do better, RNG should not have anything to do with progression of gear or character IMO.
RNG feels like a cheep system that dont reward investment or time, only your prays to the "RNG gods".

Thank you for the info btw!

Am going to go cry a lite now.

Jxshuwu

Nooo i hate RNG enchantments! Pls don't let it be true.

A system where you could enchant a weapon with just one specific 'power' or element would be cool though.
Like you can give your sword a fire enchantment so it does partially fire damage or bonus fire damage. But in no way should it scale.

bloodprophet

Steven talked about this with Summit or maybe it was timthetatman when he did the interviews with them.

Jxshuwu

bloodprophet wrote: »

Steven talked about this with Summit or maybe it was timthetatman when he did the interviews with them.

Think i vaguely remember this in the interview with summit.

McShave

Enchanting weapons is supposed to be like a leveling system after you have reached max level. If the enchantment fails, your item is destroyed, and you can level your item to about +15 if you get really lucky. Your item being destroyed gives an incentive to not enchant your gear, because it may cost you a lot. I hope that the enchanting is not game breaking tho. If i have +0 and someone has +3, i would like it to be a fair fight still.

Jxshuwu

McShave wrote: »

Enchanting weapons is supposed to be like a leveling system after you have reached max level. If the enchantment fails, your item is destroyed, and you can level your item to about +15 if you get really lucky. Your item being destroyed gives an incentive to not enchant your gear, because it may cost you a lot. I hope that the enchanting is not game breaking tho. If i have +0 and someone has +3, i would like it to be a fair fight still.

Maybe a nice way to balance it, is to ''enchant'' a singular stat on a weapon whilst sacrificing another.

Like, you can enhance the agility stat on a weapon but lose the same amount of the stamina stat. Which can bring forward some cool specifically aimed builds like agility builds.

Maybe not relevant to your comment, but a cool thought perhaps.

McShave

@Jxshuwu That was talked about in one of the livestreams. There will be the ability to change stats on equipment, and i believe it will be seperate from the post-leveling enchanting system. We have a long time before we actually learn any of this tho, so many things are possible

Jxshuwu

McShave wrote: »

@Jxshuwu That was talked about in one of the livestreams. There will be the ability to change stats on equipment, and i believe it will be seperate from the post-leveling enchanting system. We have a long time before we actually learn any of this tho, so many things are possible

That'd be pretty cool, looking forward to their next devstream.

Vhaeyne

This is good because failed enchants keep the economy going.
You can also Deconstruct or sale poor procs to mitigate loss.

Warth

Gear Crafting: no RNG
Horizontal Entchanting: no RNG
Vertical Enchanting: RNG

rikardp98

If an Enchanter have the ability and the skill to do an enchant, then that enchant should be 100% successful.

However, if an Enchanter isn't skillful enough, a chance for destruction should exist.

Reaching 100% success rate should take some time and effort, but it should be possible.

Gannito

It should be similar to L2, up to +3 there is no chance of weapon / armor breakage.

From there, it can be broken, the more enchantment, the easier it is to break.

No gods in the middle !!!

Biccus

As long as there is a max an enchant can go and it isn't that far away from the safe zone I'll accept it. I don't want to see someone way outgearing others just because they got repeatedly lucky,

Gbolt

In my opinion, its a better system than the one with 0 RNG (if we ignore the fact that gear/mats dropping is also RNG). It makes it more dynamic that end game is not stale where everyone have top gear with 0 difference even if minority of people can invest enormous amount of resources or get super lucky to enchant weapon to +16 or something.

JamesSunderland

Enchanting RNG is an excellent gambling feature that pushes that thrill of risk vs reward, i have amazing memories of that in Lineage 2. So i like it being in the game as 2 possibilities: Cheap and reasonable easy to get enchant with risk to break the item and the expensive and rare enchant without the risk to break the item but resets the item to +0 on failure.
I Believe there should be other supplementar methods of improving a weapon other than ++ enchant aswell.

Warth

Unpopular Opinion here:

When everybody can reach max enchants, then you might not have them in the game at all. If you put it in, then it should be extensive. Reaching it should take considerable amount of effort.

With that being said:
There should be diminishing returns on your enchantements. +0 -> +1 should should provie the biggest improvement. The highest enchantements should only provide a marginal improvement, so that they only ever matter for the players trying to do the hardest content.

JamesSunderland

Warth wrote: »

Unpopular Opinion here:

When everybody can reach max enchants, then you might not have them in the game at all. If you put it in, then it should be extensive. Reaching it should take considerable amount of effort.

With that being said:
There should be diminishing returns on your enchantements. +0 -> +1 should should provie the biggest improvement. The highest enchantements should only provide a marginal improvement, so that they only ever matter for the players trying to do the hardest content.

I agree with the "Unpopular Opinion" it makes total sense for the "Risk vs Reward" idea.

Therefore i disagree with the "diminishing returns" as it simples goes against the idea of "Risk vs Reward"
+6 to +7 should be more(or as) rewarding than +0 to +1 as the risk/cost to reach it is higher.

Warth

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

Unpopular Opinion here:

When everybody can reach max enchants, then you might not have them in the game at all. If you put it in, then it should be extensive. Reaching it should take considerable amount of effort.

With that being said:
There should be diminishing returns on your enchantements. +0 -> +1 should should provie the biggest improvement. The highest enchantements should only provide a marginal improvement, so that they only ever matter for the players trying to do the hardest content.

I agree with the "Unpopular Opinion" it makes total sense for the "Risk vs Reward" idea.

Therefore i disagree with the "diminishing returns" as it simples goes against the idea of "Risk vs Reward"
+6 to +7 should be more(or as) rewarding than +0 to +1 as the risk/cost to reach it is higher.

@JamesSunderland
If you make the highest ones the most rewarding, the people will feel forced into going for it no matter what, which is exactly what will get them to quit.
Easiest way to unnecessairly lose players, the same way archeage did.

JamesSunderland

Warth wrote: »

@JamesSunderland
If you make the highest ones the most rewarding, the people will feel forced into going for it no matter what, which is exactly what will get them to quit.
Easiest way to unnecessairly lose players, the same way archeage did.

Oh using Archeage in this case is a terrible comparison as its "enchanting" method on release was one of the worst ones ever almost bound by the Cash shop(and limited by other RNG "enhancements" such as Lunagems) before the release of the Auroria continent and its non-breakable enchants acquirable pretty much only after the release of Ayanad Library...
If you make the highest ones the least rewarding people will have almost no incentive to gamble and kinda kills its meaning/purpose, i would rather just remove the enchanting system itself.
No one is "forced" to do it, people can focus on making money to buy a enchanted item.

Warth

Its not just Archeage though, tons of (primarily) Korean MMOs tried the high risk, high reward gear upgrade gambling. Pretty sure i could name dozens. Neither of which was very appreciated for this aspect of the game in the west.

Also, arguing, that nobody will do it is flat out wrong. The people looking to be as competitive as possible will always go for these advantages, no matter how miniscule the gains are. IMO, the last levels of enchantement should be the last/and hardest steps within your character's gear progression.

However,

• High Cost enchanting systems
• with High Rewards (to the point where you have to do it if you want to be competitive)
• based on RNG

will never be received well within the western audience. History has proven that 100 times over. Even similar attempts in WoW with titan forging were received incredibly bad, even though the high cost/high risk wasn't even a part of it.

Daerax

I think there are many issues with Lineage-like +1, +2.....+whatever RNG enchanting. Especially if failure would results in loss of/severe damage to the item and you want to keep the risk vs. reward ratio approprite, you would really need to make the enchanting worth it (if not, some people will go for it anyway, but then it will be more frustrating than anything else). With that can come severe overlapping of power level between completely different tiers of weapons. You don't really want to farm world boss for a month, put ridiculous amount of other materials to finally craft your BIS epic sword and then meet RNGgod69 in town rocking his +16 green dungeon drop with same attack power. Jokes aside, I really feel enchanting shoudln't play huge role in power level of items, especially with major RNG elements. The power should come from the item, not from number behind it's name. Look at titanforging in wow, even though it's not enchanting in this sense, and why it failed. People really like getting their BIS. You want to chase for somethig most of the time, but you want to have some control over it and it also feels like great achievement when you can say you are done with your gear for a bit, before new release comes. It shouldn't be easy, it shouldn't be achieveable by everyone, there must be some RNG in the process so it doesn't feel like glorified to-do list. But having it kept virtually unreachable behind huge layer of RNG, especially after you put the effort to get the best possible gear just doesn't sit right with me and I am pretty sure it's the case for many people out there. There are other minor issues like over enchanting low level gear and turning it to WoW heirlooms on steroids for your alts, especially in game where everyone can use everything. It just feels more like a system to get money from people in game with p2w cash shop, than enjoyable game design in modern MMO.

Ramirez

Warth wrote: »

Its not just Archeage though, tons of (primarily) Korean MMOs tried the high risk, high reward gear upgrade gambling. Pretty sure i could name dozens. Neither of which was very appreciated for this aspect of the game in the west.

Also, arguing, that nobody will do it is flat out wrong. The people looking to be as competitive as possible will always go for these advantages, no matter how miniscule the gains are. IMO, the last levels of enchantement should be the last/and hardest steps within your character's gear progression.

However,

• High Cost enchanting systems
• with High Rewards (to the point where you have to do it if you want to be competitive)
• based on RNG

will never be received well within the western audience. History has proven that 100 times over. Even similar attempts in WoW with titan forging were received incredibly bad, even though the high cost/high risk wasn't even a part of it.

The thing is, korean mmorps that tried wasn´t good mmorpg in general, if you have a good base game, this mechanic can be well received and addictive, if you like the game you invest time in the game...

JamesSunderland

Warth wrote: »

Its not just Archeage though, tons of (primarily) Korean MMOs tried the high risk, high reward gear upgrade gambling. Pretty sure i could name dozens. Neither of which was very appreciated for this aspect of the game in the west.

Also, arguing, that nobody will do it is flat out wrong. The people looking to be as competitive as possible will always go for these advantages, no matter how miniscule the gains are. IMO, the last levels of enchantement should be the last/and hardest steps within your character's gear progression.

However,

• High Cost enchanting systems
• with High Rewards (to the point where you have to do it if you want to be competitive)
• based on RNG

will never be received well within the western audience. History has proven that 100 times over. Even similar attempts in WoW with titan forging were received incredibly bad, even though the high cost/high risk wasn't even a part of it.

I don't think "the high risk, high reward gear upgrade gambling" was the reason Korean MMOs weren't "very appreciated" in the west i would attribute it to their extremely grindy nature, p2w factors and their discrepancies to the western MMORPG Behemoth WoW, but sure.
Btw i did not argued in any moment "that nobody will do it" but will feel tremendously less motivated to do so.

I believe the correct answer comes from the proper balance/equilibrium: Not low cost/reward to the point it becomes meaningless and not high cost/reward to the point it becomes obligatory to be competitive or that it overshadows other forms of horizontal progression.

Biccus

Warth wrote: »

will never be received well within the western audience. History has proven that 100 times over. Even similar attempts in WoW with titan forging were received incredibly bad, even though the high cost/high risk wasn't even a part of it.

To my memory it was a little different in WoW why titan forging was so poorly received. That was because the player literally didn't have to do anything extra to get a titan forged item. It was simply pure luck, which of course people will not be happy when player A got the same loot but just way worse than player B due to luck.

with the over enchanting mechanic however, you have to actually take a risk of the item decaying/destroying to get that boost. While I'm sceptical on the system, at least I can say that player had to take a risk in getting the enchant where it is.

Blip

Wow this thread took off, am glad to see the majority here don`t like the idea.
Lets hope we get to test it in good time and can steer Intrepid in a better direction.

Am more for hard to get resources that take time and effort to get and not RNG.

Lets hope its not as bad, but i got a bad feeling for this system in general i wish they would scrap it.

Gubiak

Personally not a fan of 0 -> +10 enchants in order to progress gear like in MU or BDO. Thinking that enchanting should be something that requires rare ingredients and is meaningful when you finally put it on a piece of gear like enchanting at the end of burning crusade. You would just see people running around with the mongoose enchant and you would want to be a part of it. Having a stat bonus out of enchanting is not exciting and can be all kinds of frustrating when it comes to RNG.

Blip

Gubiak wrote: »

Personally not a fan of 0 -> +10 enchants in order to progress gear like in MU or BDO. Thinking that enchanting should be something that requires rare ingredients and is meaningful when you finally put it on a piece of gear like enchanting at the end of burning crusade. You would just see people running around with the mongoose enchant and you would want to be a part of it. Having a stat bonus out of enchanting is not exciting and can be all kinds of frustrating when it comes to RNG.

I agree it would be so nice if Steven or someone would explain the plans for this system and maybe we could get a better grip on it. I relay hope they drop the RNG part let it be hard and low drop rate for the resource you need for it instead its good for the economy, crafting and it will feel meaningful and like and achievement when you get it.