Open World Dungeons with PvP

McShaveMcShave Member
edited March 2021 in General Discussion
I was trying to research other games with open world pvp dungeons, and the selection of games is quite limited. As far as I know, the choices are Lineage 2, Ultima Online, and Albion Online. All of these games are isometric or click to move type games, and none of them play the way Ashes plays.

I was watching this video, some pvp occuring in a dungeon in UO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFH9Zg_pl_4

I also love the video they released showcasing a dungeon IS has worked on: https://youtu.be/vI8DDBX7hD0?t=2522

I've been thinking about what kind of mechanics the game would need to make a successful open world pvp dungeon, but here are some ideas:
  • Layout needs to be non-linear. If there is just one path to get to the end boss, then getting out after killing the last boss is a death sentence and you may lose some of what you got in the dungeon.
  • Large rooms with much open space. Preferably there will be enough room for 2 groups to skirt around each other, ensuring there is an option to not engage.
  • Scouting what is ahead or behind you will be very important. For this, either a very strong invis with sprint will be useful, or a spell like Eye of Kilrogg.

Intrepid has done a great job with the first 2 points, as seen in their dungeon video, and it's a bit too early in game development to know about the third point, I'm just having some fun here. Are there other examples of open world pvp dungeons? Also what kind of game mechanics/ ideas do you all think will make dungeoneering more fun.

Comments

  • JxshuwuJxshuwu Member
    Agree! Albion (my current fav mmo) didn't execute it perfectly, although dungeon diving was a blast, it wasn't that well made. Dungeons were a one-way road, you had 2 options if you got dove: Run into the mobs, take massive damage, most likely die regardless. Or two, run into the enemy and either fight back or try to run for the exit without attacking them (Couldnt leave if you did hit them) which became more difficult the deeper in the dungeon you were. Getting dove was very frustrating, thats why diving was very fun, because it was so easily done.

    More open areas and more roads to follow would be a + for me.
  • HedgemonHedgemon Member
    As an Albion player. I love the idea of diving dungeons. However with the way they are leaning with pvp, it sounds like the corruption (negative karma) you would accrue when solo diving a 3+ man dungeon wouldnt be worth the consequences. Imagine diving and killing a healer, 2 of the dps and are working on the tank the tank. You now are corrupt and the tank beats you and by bad luck, drop your best piece of gear. That would be a total failure.
    Trample the dead and hurdle the fallen. Run, and you will only die tired.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 2021
    The term dungeon is being used to describe a group activity, beating instanced content with trash mobs, bosses and mechanics.

    It confuses people when they mention open world dungeons.

    L2:
    Elven Ruins
    School of Dark Magic
    Forgotten Temple
    Ant Nest
    Cruma Tower
    Giants Cave
    Lair of Antharas
    Tower of Insolence
    Catacombs
    Impeeial Tomb
    Forge of smthg
    Monastery of Silence and many more that I now forget.

    They were all massive enclosed areas like caves, ruins, towers, in which mobs were hard to kill and gave good exp and good drops/mats. Massive as they might have been, some times players would fight over a section of the area.

    There would be bosses that would kill a tank in 4 hits, that's why a group with healer, supports and plenty of dps was needed. The bosses would drop great things and great xp. Others might be quest related. People would fight for them. Often these bosses would be in the deepest parts. Some were even EpicLegendaryWorldBosses.

    There werent complicated mechanics. It was places that solo players could never explore. Nor zergs could go there. People wouldnt trust to play with random players without knowing if they could tank heal dps or support. Death would cost hours of lost xp and you could even drop an item that you spend weeks crafting, and most times people woulndt give it back.

    Back in the day we didnt call them dungeons. We called each open world area by it's name. Mind you many other natural environments without a roof were inaccessible to solos or weak players.

    Are you still confused about open world pvp and dungeons?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    When it comes to "dungeons" and "mechanics in an open world game, AoC has said two things.

    There will be very little instanced content. In other words there will still be the wow, ffxiv, eso, tera dungeons as you know them. But very few.

    Now when they talk about "mechanics" in in living and breathing game, which will be different per server, I think it's a great challeng for them to implement it.
    Maybe they will just end up being big bosses with huge hp and damage dealing with a few AoE cones, circles etc etc.
  • ShadelightShadelight Member
    The less instanced content the better, and by that I mean things that are traditionally instanced should instead be in the open world imo.

    By the way, for the randomization part I think dungeons should, on set timers, have some sort of force (similar to the Time Limit in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games) appear that knocks everyone in the dungeon and teleports them somewhere near the entrance, outside, a few seconds later. During that time, the whole layout of said dungeon would get randomized again, refilled and cleaned up, ready for more players to come and plunder it.
    Obviously, this force would have some sort of signs or a visible countdown so players inside the dungeon would know that their time is nigh and it's time to get out.
    Thief of Time
  • DinfallDinfall Member
    I play Albion today and with each update it gets more fun, guild wars and open world pvp content are the best today. I didn't see any game with a pvp as elaborate as Albion.
    Many Albion players are expecting AoC to be Albion 3D

    To this day, I expect an MMO that will bring me a huge sense of challenge, which I only had in the Dark Souls series.
    For me, bosses need to have elaborate combat mechanics, with no warning of when a skill is going to drop. The player has to memorize the boss's movements
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 2021
    It's definitely been done before :smile:

    Oldest one I have played is around 20 years ago in Dark Age of Camelot, where 3 realms/factions fought over loot and raid bosses in a big underground dungeon called Darkness Falls. There were circular paths and chokepoints and a few bigger open areas as well, IIRC.

    If you don't know DAoC, the endgame is PvP. Well, Realm vs. Realm (RvR) to be specific. And it's a 3D camera-from-behind MMORPG like so many others. Not isometric or click to move. 8 man groups like AoC will have, with one class from each realm having runspeed buffs that significantly boosted the speed to... i actually forget how much, but at least double.

    I hope some of the devs in Intrepid have experienced Darkness Falls first hand, and learned from it.
  • JxshuwuJxshuwu Member
    edited March 2021
    Dinfall wrote: »
    I play Albion today and with each update it gets more fun, guild wars and open world pvp content are the best today. I didn't see any game with a pvp as elaborate as Albion.
    Many Albion players are expecting AoC to be Albion 3D

    To this day, I expect an MMO that will bring me a huge sense of challenge, which I only had in the Dark Souls series.
    For me, bosses need to have elaborate combat mechanics, with no warning of when a skill is going to drop. The player has to memorize the boss's movements

    Albion is awesome but it doesnt have any mechanics against handholding which is very ehh.. but its my favourite mmo too for pvp
  • RamirezRamirez Member
    Dinfall wrote: »
    I play Albion today and with each update it gets more fun, guild wars and open world pvp content are the best today. I didn't see any game with a pvp as elaborate as Albion.
    Many Albion players are expecting AoC to be Albion 3D

    To this day, I expect an MMO that will bring me a huge sense of challenge, which I only had in the Dark Souls series.
    For me, bosses need to have elaborate combat mechanics, with no warning of when a skill is going to drop. The player has to memorize the boss's movements

    Yup this say all about the state of mmorpg, if you want open world pvp with full loot, politics, economy, good crafting you just have 2 choices Eve (spaceship game) or albion (crapy mobile/pc hybrid), this is sad

    Sadly for what i have seen in reddit/youtube for aoc is already catering the wrong audience, people is just talking about cosmetic gear, cosmetic mounts they think they are coming to another gw2 or wow to fill collections and i hope aoc don´t go on that route

  • JxshuwuJxshuwu Member
    Ramirez wrote: »
    Dinfall wrote: »
    I play Albion today and with each update it gets more fun, guild wars and open world pvp content are the best today. I didn't see any game with a pvp as elaborate as Albion.
    Many Albion players are expecting AoC to be Albion 3D

    To this day, I expect an MMO that will bring me a huge sense of challenge, which I only had in the Dark Souls series.
    For me, bosses need to have elaborate combat mechanics, with no warning of when a skill is going to drop. The player has to memorize the boss's movements

    or albion (crapy mobile/pc hybrid), this is sad



    Albion is pretty good man, it has alot of players who love it. Gameplay wise, it gets closest to an actual mmo than any other mmo's in my opinion. Don't think its a crappy game.

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