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Balancing hardcore players and casual players
ChaosHvR
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
As I have understood so far in reading/watching Steven Sharif's and other developers updates, I understand that there are some features in the game that can only be achieved by a single player at a time. One example off the top of my head is what Steven discussed during an AMA: that a player in a certain religion can achieve the highest title (cardinal/bishop/pope) and then has access to a quest that is exclusive to the one person holding said title.
I believe Steven said there would be some sort of time limit to this title so that after a time someone else can pick up the mantle of highest title or perhaps that same person can just get to that title the fastest again or what not - so my question here, is how that would work? Does the first person to that title after a time just have a term like a president and then becomes an ex-"title" and just loses the perks and can never get to that position again? Or are there mechanisms in place where they can keep the title if they stay active?
This leads me to the wonder about the hardcore gamer who plays 16-18 hours (maybe a slight exaggeration but I know there are some that do so) and the casual gamer who also works for a living that spends perhaps 2-4 hours daily or every other day that want the same achievement. Can the casual gamer get to a high ranking point in the game (a one person per server at a time level) or will those be forever locked behind the thousands of hardcore gamers that do nothing but play the game day and night? So if I want to be a completionist and get those quests done where I need to be at that highest point, is there a way that I can?
Thanks in advance to any answers and/or links to other posts that answer this.
I believe Steven said there would be some sort of time limit to this title so that after a time someone else can pick up the mantle of highest title or perhaps that same person can just get to that title the fastest again or what not - so my question here, is how that would work? Does the first person to that title after a time just have a term like a president and then becomes an ex-"title" and just loses the perks and can never get to that position again? Or are there mechanisms in place where they can keep the title if they stay active?
This leads me to the wonder about the hardcore gamer who plays 16-18 hours (maybe a slight exaggeration but I know there are some that do so) and the casual gamer who also works for a living that spends perhaps 2-4 hours daily or every other day that want the same achievement. Can the casual gamer get to a high ranking point in the game (a one person per server at a time level) or will those be forever locked behind the thousands of hardcore gamers that do nothing but play the game day and night? So if I want to be a completionist and get those quests done where I need to be at that highest point, is there a way that I can?
Thanks in advance to any answers and/or links to other posts that answer this.
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That's not to say I don't feel for the players who can't play as much, as that is unfortunate for them, but we shouldn't let that be an excuse to diminish the achievements of players who have put in their most precious resource, that being their time, into getting. This obviously is a case by case basis, as some mechanics could and should be equalized, but this should in my opinion be reserved for the more commonplace and less important aspects of a game.
For your question about the religious/leadership positions, those I think should especially not be altered for the purpose of bridging that gap. The leadership roles in this kind of game you would expect to be held by players who have experience and the time to act in their roles on that experience. Especially since, as I believe, these roles are more than just a status symbol. Leadership positions actually a have things to delegate and reside over.
You're right, @Dreoh.
There's nothing hidden or top secret about MMOs being a time sink ... players should already know what they're getting themselves into before they even download and press "play".
As mentioned, there will be some outlets for casual players in Ashes (especially some of the crafting artisan systems). But, casual completionists will just have to be fine with allowing themselves a longer achievement window for the same objectives.
Bottom Line: It's not the best genre to get into on a limited time budget ... Ashes or any other MMO. But, it does have it's rewards for sticking around.
It does appear that the leader of a Divine node will have an advantage in retaining the position as the player will have an actual flying mount and a unique quest chain to keep completing quests for the node.
Some might be organic, the Military node Mayor's champion would be targetted as known to be the best and taken down early in fighting. Or the economic node mayor run off being a blind bid so natural greed may cost the mayor on that second or third run.
Others might be mechanical like the quest for the religious mayor being worth it for other effects but requires a long flight across the world that is unique but slows down no lifing to get the other quests done to keep the role. Or that the scientific mayor cannot run back to back.
If a mayor in a scientific node is doing a good job and keeps getting voted in, more power to them.
If a mayor in an economic node is able to afford to be mayor month after month, who are we to stop them?
If you want to be a mayor of a node, the path to that end is very, very clear. Either take it and give it your best, or don't take it and don't complain.
Everyone is on an even footing.
Pretty much.
It's not the system's responsibility to cycle leaders.
The system just needs to give the community power to dislodge bad leaders.
Casual players or players who dont have alot of time, are unfortunately just limited to which content is available to them but how much you do in your limited time also affects this.
I totally get that those who can commit the time in larger chunks than others (say 7 hours a day) will achieve things faster than others and also maintain those things - power to them, they deserve it since they played it as it were their job/passion. All I'm wondering is that if I dedicate myself to the game in shorter time chunks but over several months (2-4 hours per day), would it be possible to achieve something such as a titular role for a period to relish in the beauty of the quest line that comes with it. I don't expect to be the first there, I don't even expect to be the hundredth there, but I would hope that my passion for the game and long term dedication could amount to something.
I love mmo's, I am a hardcore in mind but casual by practice because I created a life for myself where I do have duties AFK. I have poured myself into WoW, TERA, Runescape (some examples) where others would look at the time spent and say what many do; "you could have learnt a new skill/you could have read several books/isn't that a waste of your time?" I don't regret any of that time spent, and seeing how AoC is developing, I am feeling something spark inside of me and cannot wait to spend the thousands of hours into it - just over a longer period of time than others.
So I don't want balancing in the wrong places, I don't want babying, I don't want to minimize the achievements of the hardcore players who can put 1000hrs clocked in at two and a half months. I just want to get a feel for what I can achieve if I stay dedicated to the game; 1000+++ hours but over 8 months? perhaps a year? And then into the future of the game - 2 years, 4 years, etc. Even someone with 2000hrs under their belt but over a year or more, can be a leader to the people (and you can bet that during breaks/holidays/other times away from work, that I WILL be doing all nighters for weeks if I can ;D). When it comes to enacting your duties in a role, that is just managing your time in all facets of your life which is 100% possible - I cannot imagine that being an effective religious leader or effective mayor requires you to be in-game 8 hours a day every day since that isn't even the case in real life hahaha
Be well Verrans and happy Easter
Being mayor of an economic node is an outright gold purchase. If someone maintains that position for months in a row, that will cost them a lot.
If you save up for months on end, you may well be able to beat them out for one month. Eventually.
The religious node is almost guaranteed to not work this way. The "race" to become mayor will most likely reset each month, so the winner for any given month is most likely the player that spends the most amount of time on it.
This is where casual players need to play smarter. Look at what you can do with the time you have, not at what you want to do.
Casual players just need to understand, that they won't be able to achieve anything and that's okay.
Players aren't equal here. The game isn't designed to be that.
but what it takes is some kind of PvP balance. Sure, hardcore players with better EQ have to be stronger, but this advantage must not be more than 35% . at the end casualplayers walk around and getting oneshoot, thats not fun
If there can only be 1 pope on the entire server, I would want to see that guy around in the world as much as possible. If you let a more casual player get the title, then it feels like its being wasted with how frequently "the pope" would be offline
The same way that I want the mayor to be some degenerate in epic gear that's always online. If these are going to be important positions in the game, they should be held by people who are important within the server community; which usually points to guild leaders and sweatlords
Yes there should be a gap between what a casual that logs in three times a week for ~2-3 hours per session vs a more dedicated/hardcore player that does 5+ sessions per week at ~4 hours per session.
However, there should be minimal if no difference in what a dedicated player can achieve vs a "basement dweller" that's playing 10+ hours every day.
Games are games, not jobs. If a game is made to need the dedication of a job to be the best at it, then I'd argue that is a negligent act of the developer that negatively impacts our real life society. Modern culture holds many companies socially responsible for their impact on society. Why not games that require too much time to compete in them?
Its a tricky balance
I work full time in real estate, have 3 kids, am married, work on my house and I am still able to find the time to game....a lot. I just happen to include my kids in it now as well : )
Sometimes for the sake of balance the game becomes bland and boring, fun mechanics are stripped away and the game dies.
Though iirc players can improve their tournament stand-in character through other means to give them an advantage in the tournament. So maybe hardcore will still have an advantage here.
But more to the point of the discussion, and what most people already said, yea.. Not everyone should be mayor, hell it won't be possible at all. If there are 50,000 players on a server and 5 Metropolises, 50 Villages.... You'd need like 100 years before everyone personally got a turn.
A player that only plays 2 hours a day should still be able to level up to the cap, should still be able to run dungeons (if they can find people to run them with), should be able to participate in crafting, all of that stuff.
Where this argument falls flat is when players are competing directly with each other. If a game were to limit the number of players at the level cap, then that player that could only spend 2 hours a week in the game simply won't make it.
With being a nodes mayor, you are competing against other mayoral hopefuls. Not everyone is going to make it. With how some of these races are being run (especially divine nodes), it absolutely will be the player that spends the most time that comes out on top.
This isn't bad game design, but if a player with little available free time to play attempts to be mayor of a divine node - and actually expects to get somewhere - that is absolutely poor self awareness on their part, and they have no one to blame but themself.
A game should always be fun for people no matter how much they're able to play. That means it should always provide goals to players no matter how much they play. For the casual players, reaching the next level and finishing the next quest will be that next goal. For the person that plays 15 hours a day, achieving and maintaining that mayoral position will be their ultimate goal.
I REALLY don't want people to hit a point where they hit their 'weekly cap' for progress toward religion leader and they might as well go play an alt or a different game until the cap resets. Even if I will never get close to that level of devotion to the game, I want that option to be there if I feel like going for it.
Admittedly this idea comes from Asmongold, but I feel like he put it into words better than I've heard anybody else put it; Whenever there's a game that people play so long that it starts to be unhealthy, you know that's a good game. I want ashes to get to that point and embrace it.
This is not ideal in a forced sense.
The way this turns out in practice is time-gated content.
A prime example of this is Genshin Impact, where you only have 160 resin a day to spend doing activities. When you spend all that resin you virtually lose all progression until it regenerates enough for you to get rewards from activities again.
It's frustrating to say the least being unable to play a game because of an arbitrary limitation.
I have not played genshin but that system reminds me of some games like Mu legend in which you could do 1 or 2 times a day each dungeon and if you wanted to do it more times you already had to buy keys in the store (pay to win) .. no I know how effective is this system of limiting the amount of times you can do a dungeon or raid .. Maybe it's okay for many not to abuse taking many objects playing all day unlike others that can do it perhaps 1 time a day. .. there we entered the debate of the topic
If I'm understanding your comment correctly (if I'm not I'm sorry, your train of thought was hard to follow), that is an extremely, extremely shitty practice. I'm honestly insulted as someone who enjoys games that someone would advocate for this.
If a player wishes to spend 10 hours a day on your game, why are you punishing him for doing so?
You're going to kill their love for the game.
If someone can only play for an hour a day, don't use that as an excuse to bring low other people.
Sure it's unfortunate for that person, but why the hell would you think his hour should be equal to the 10 hours of another player.
Edit: A soft cap would be a good compromise, like "first win of the day" bonuses other games have, where you just get bonus rewards on top of your normal rewards, but any game that does "you can only get rewards for the first 3 games a day" has failed in making a game, and instead has created a cash grab.
of course .. do you know if the developers have made any clarification on this issue? I've been following the game for a short time and the truth is I don't know ... if they haven't, it's a good topic to put a survey to see if they prefer that the dungeons and other activities be limited to the day or free daily access ... maybe in alphas and betas have no limits and when the game comes out if they do ... who knows?
People would feel compelled to log in and get all of their "first win of the day" bonuses before carrying on with the content they want to do.
What everyone here seems to be forgetting is that Ashes content is not instanced,for the most part, it is open world.
You dont "finish" a dungeon in an open world game. People can spend 10+ hours in the same dungeon if they like, just as they can spend 10+ hours on the same grinding spot in other games.
That's very true, I forgot about that aspect of it
I was only saying that if it was an absolute necessity that's the compromise that would work best.
A good example is how WoW did the gearing out for PvP in the current rated season (sorry @Noaani, lots of people think Blizzard did PvP gearing really well this time around). Each week you can earn up only a certain number of "conquest points" that you use to buy the best gear (note, weekly caps/quests are 100x better than daily caps/quests as you have much more flexibility when you do the content vs feeling like you have to do it every day). It didn't take too much to hit the weekly caps... if you are winning. If you are losing, your not getting those conquest points (so its rewarding skill over time spent).
However, if you hit the cap you could still keep doing rated matches. And all of these matches could move your rating up/down. So there was as much playability as you want, but you didn't feel like you had to do 10 hours/day to stay competitive (like pvp ranks in classic WoW... that was bad). However, those people who really wanted to play a lot still had something (rating) they could work towards.
I had some weeks where I did just the bare minimum to get my conquest. I had other weeks I did well beyond that to push my rating.
Too make the system even better, if you didn't hit cap on prior weeks, then your cap went up (so you could always grind out later in the season and catch up to everyone else). Catch up mechanics are super important for any content that is time gated or anyone who misses a week/starts late is at disadvantage they cannot overcome.
Bad examples of time gating:
1) Anything done on a daily basis
2) When there is a quest chain that has one piece per week rolled out (~30mins - 1 hour of quests per week over ~10 weeks). I'd rather just have full access to the entire quest chain when its ready and go through it at the pace I want to. It's much more immersive this way. Sadly, for some reason WoW keeps doing their big story telling quest chains this way...
I have not played this game, but it sounds like the core issue is that its 160/day. How long does it take to go through 160 resin? Would it be better if you had 1120/week instead? (or maybe if this is one of those P2W games and even this isn't much time? In which case maybe it should be 5k/week?).
Weekly caps >>>>>>>> daily caps.