Balancing hardcore players and casual players

As I have understood so far in reading/watching Steven Sharif's and other developers updates, I understand that there are some features in the game that can only be achieved by a single player at a time. One example off the top of my head is what Steven discussed during an AMA: that a player in a certain religion can achieve the highest title (cardinal/bishop/pope) and then has access to a quest that is exclusive to the one person holding said title.

I believe Steven said there would be some sort of time limit to this title so that after a time someone else can pick up the mantle of highest title or perhaps that same person can just get to that title the fastest again or what not - so my question here, is how that would work? Does the first person to that title after a time just have a term like a president and then becomes an ex-"title" and just loses the perks and can never get to that position again? Or are there mechanisms in place where they can keep the title if they stay active?

This leads me to the wonder about the hardcore gamer who plays 16-18 hours (maybe a slight exaggeration but I know there are some that do so) and the casual gamer who also works for a living that spends perhaps 2-4 hours daily or every other day that want the same achievement. Can the casual gamer get to a high ranking point in the game (a one person per server at a time level) or will those be forever locked behind the thousands of hardcore gamers that do nothing but play the game day and night? So if I want to be a completionist and get those quests done where I need to be at that highest point, is there a way that I can?

Thanks in advance to any answers and/or links to other posts that answer this.

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Dreoh

I always see people asking about how systems will cater to casual players in order to help them keep up with the hardcore players. In my opinion there will and should be avenues that only people who are dedicated should be able to achieve, obtain or play through.

That's not to say I don't feel for the players who can't play as much, as that is unfortunate for them, but we shouldn't let that be an excuse to diminish the achievements of players who have put in their most precious resource, that being their time, into getting. This obviously is a case by case basis, as some mechanics could and should be equalized, but this should in my opinion be reserved for the more commonplace and less important aspects of a game.

For your question about the religious/leadership positions, those I think should especially not be altered for the purpose of bridging that gap. The leadership roles in this kind of game you would expect to be held by players who have experience and the time to act in their roles on that experience. Especially since, as I believe, these roles are more than just a status symbol. Leadership positions actually a have things to delegate and reside over.

Taleof2Cities

Dreoh wrote: »

I always see people asking about how systems will cater to casual players in order to help them keep up with the hardcore players. In my opinion there will and should be avenues that only people who are dedicated should be able to achieve, obtain or play through.

That's not to say I don't feel for the players who can't play as much, as that is unfortunate for them, but we shouldn't let that be an excuse to diminish the achievements of players who have put in their most precious resource, that being their time, into getting.

You're right, @Dreoh.

There's nothing hidden or top secret about MMOs being a time sink ... players should already know what they're getting themselves into before they even download and press "play".

As mentioned, there will be some outlets for casual players in Ashes (especially some of the crafting artisan systems). But, casual completionists will just have to be fine with allowing themselves a longer achievement window for the same objectives.

Bottom Line: It's not the best genre to get into on a limited time budget ... Ashes or any other MMO. But, it does have it's rewards for sticking around.

Saedu

Where possible I prefer to see rewards based on skill rather than time investment. Of course more time = more opportunity to get better.

FuryBladeborne

ChaosHvR wrote: »

As I have understood so far in reading/watching Steven Sharif's and other developers updates, I understand that there are some features in the game that can only be achieved by a single player at a time. One example off the top of my head is what Steven discussed during an AMA: that a player in a certain religion can achieve the highest title (cardinal/bishop/pope) and then has access to a quest that is exclusive to the one person holding said title.

I believe Steven said there would be some sort of time limit to this title so that after a time someone else can pick up the mantle of highest title or perhaps that same person can just get to that title the fastest again or what not - so my question here, is how that would work? Does the first person to that title after a time just have a term like a president and then becomes an ex-"title" and just loses the perks and can never get to that position again? Or are there mechanisms in place where they can keep the title if they stay active?

The person with the highest title in a Divine node is the leader of the node which is equivalent to the mayor of other node types. The term is 1 month as mayoral elections run every month. Losing the position presumably removes all benefits. However, the position can be regained by earning it again every month.

It does appear that the leader of a Divine node will have an advantage in retaining the position as the player will have an actual flying mount and a unique quest chain to keep completing quests for the node.

BigRamble

I'm expecting some level of mechanic that will dislodge the leader/mayor from being continually in charge.

Some might be organic, the Military node Mayor's champion would be targetted as known to be the best and taken down early in fighting. Or the economic node mayor run off being a blind bid so natural greed may cost the mayor on that second or third run.

Others might be mechanical like the quest for the religious mayor being worth it for other effects but requires a long flight across the world that is unique but slows down no lifing to get the other quests done to keep the role. Or that the scientific mayor cannot run back to back.

Noaani

BigRamble wrote: »

I'm expecting some level of mechanic that will dislodge the leader/mayor from being continually in charge.

Why would this be needed?

If a mayor in a scientific node is doing a good job and keeps getting voted in, more power to them.

If a mayor in an economic node is able to afford to be mayor month after month, who are we to stop them?

If you want to be a mayor of a node, the path to that end is very, very clear. Either take it and give it your best, or don't take it and don't complain.

Everyone is on an even footing.

Talents

Not everything has to be achievable by everyone, that line of thinking is one of the many reasons that games these days have become participation award simulators where everyone can achieve everything with minimum effort.

maouw

Noaani wrote: »

BigRamble wrote: »

I'm expecting some level of mechanic that will dislodge the leader/mayor from being continually in charge.

Why would this be needed?

If a mayor in a scientific node is doing a good job and keeps getting voted in, more power to them.

If a mayor in an economic node is able to afford to be mayor month after month, who are we to stop them?

If you want to be a mayor of a node, the path to that end is very, very clear. Either take it and give it your best, or don't take it and don't complain.

Everyone is on an even footing.

Pretty much.

It's not the system's responsibility to cycle leaders.
The system just needs to give the community power to dislodge bad leaders.

Jxshuwu

I Don't believe this needs much balancing, i just think there needs to be features in the game that casual players can do. Any system that allows players to get the same amount of resources/items as a hardcore player, with less effort/time, is a bad system.

Casual players or players who dont have alot of time, are unfortunately just limited to which content is available to them but how much you do in your limited time also affects this.

ChaosHvR

Dreoh wrote: »

I always see people asking about how systems will cater to casual players in order to help them keep up with the hardcore players. In my opinion there will and should be avenues that only people who are dedicated should be able to achieve, obtain or play through.

That's not to say I don't feel for the players who can't play as much, as that is unfortunate for them, but we shouldn't let that be an excuse to diminish the achievements of players who have put in their most precious resource, that being their time, into getting. This obviously is a case by case basis, as some mechanics could and should be equalized, but this should in my opinion be reserved for the more commonplace and less important aspects of a game.

For your question about the religious/leadership positions, those I think should especially not be altered for the purpose of bridging that gap. The leadership roles in this kind of game you would expect to be held by players who have experience and the time to act in their roles on that experience. Especially since, as I believe, these roles are more than just a status symbol. Leadership positions actually a have things to delegate and reside over.

I totally get that those who can commit the time in larger chunks than others (say 7 hours a day) will achieve things faster than others and also maintain those things - power to them, they deserve it since they played it as it were their job/passion. All I'm wondering is that if I dedicate myself to the game in shorter time chunks but over several months (2-4 hours per day), would it be possible to achieve something such as a titular role for a period to relish in the beauty of the quest line that comes with it. I don't expect to be the first there, I don't even expect to be the hundredth there, but I would hope that my passion for the game and long term dedication could amount to something.

I love mmo's, I am a hardcore in mind but casual by practice because I created a life for myself where I do have duties AFK. I have poured myself into WoW, TERA, Runescape (some examples) where others would look at the time spent and say what many do; "you could have learnt a new skill/you could have read several books/isn't that a waste of your time?" I don't regret any of that time spent, and seeing how AoC is developing, I am feeling something spark inside of me and cannot wait to spend the thousands of hours into it - just over a longer period of time than others.

So I don't want balancing in the wrong places, I don't want babying, I don't want to minimize the achievements of the hardcore players who can put 1000hrs clocked in at two and a half months. I just want to get a feel for what I can achieve if I stay dedicated to the game; 1000+++ hours but over 8 months? perhaps a year? And then into the future of the game - 2 years, 4 years, etc. Even someone with 2000hrs under their belt but over a year or more, can be a leader to the people (and you can bet that during breaks/holidays/other times away from work, that I WILL be doing all nighters for weeks if I can ;D). When it comes to enacting your duties in a role, that is just managing your time in all facets of your life which is 100% possible - I cannot imagine that being an effective religious leader or effective mayor requires you to be in-game 8 hours a day every day since that isn't even the case in real life hahaha

. I imagine being an effective leader needs good judgement (in taxes, what buildings to have, etc), being there at the right time during events (sieges, protecting the area, trade route creation and management?, etc), setting achievable goals, communicating with the citizens; and then still being a good adventurer. I'd say this sounds like something that can be done in 4 hours per day and even on and off times - but hey, I could be horribly wrong and then props to the amazing realism of the job in-game.

Be well Verrans and happy Easter

Noaani

ChaosHvR wrote: »

All I'm wondering is that if I dedicate myself to the game in shorter time chunks but over several months (2-4 hours per day), would it be possible to achieve something such as a titular role for a period to relish in the beauty of the quest line that comes with it.

Some of them may be.

Being mayor of an economic node is an outright gold purchase. If someone maintains that position for months in a row, that will cost them a lot.

If you save up for months on end, you may well be able to beat them out for one month. Eventually.

The religious node is almost guaranteed to not work this way. The "race" to become mayor will most likely reset each month, so the winner for any given month is most likely the player that spends the most amount of time on it.

This is where casual players need to play smarter. Look at what you can do with the time you have, not at what you want to do.

Warth

There doesn't need to be any balance between hardcore and casual players.
Casual players just need to understand, that they won't be able to achieve anything and that's okay.

Players aren't equal here. The game isn't designed to be that.

Patsold

I join the others
but what it takes is some kind of PvP balance. Sure, hardcore players with better EQ have to be stronger, but this advantage must not be more than 35% . at the end casualplayers walk around and getting oneshoot, thats not fun

Ayfo

Realistically, for things like this where there's a limited number on the server (pope, metropolis mayors, castle guild leaders) I think you WANT them to be exclusive to hardcore players

If there can only be 1 pope on the entire server, I would want to see that guy around in the world as much as possible. If you let a more casual player get the title, then it feels like its being wasted with how frequently "the pope" would be offline

The same way that I want the mayor to be some degenerate in epic gear that's always online. If these are going to be important positions in the game, they should be held by people who are important within the server community; which usually points to guild leaders and sweatlords

Th3 m3n

I agree with that, an important position as priest or mayor should be filled by a person who played a lot and is constantly generating content and movement .. in the same way there should be moderately important positions for more casual people such as imperial warrior, guard , explorer.etc .. in short that they can be several and are moderately important and exclusive

Saedu

A good game will reward skill over time spent.

Yes there should be a gap between what a casual that logs in three times a week for ~2-3 hours per session vs a more dedicated/hardcore player that does 5+ sessions per week at ~4 hours per session.

However, there should be minimal if no difference in what a dedicated player can achieve vs a "basement dweller" that's playing 10+ hours every day.

Games are games, not jobs. If a game is made to need the dedication of a job to be the best at it, then I'd argue that is a negligent act of the developer that negatively impacts our real life society. Modern culture holds many companies socially responsible for their impact on society. Why not games that require too much time to compete in them?

Its a tricky balance

Khronus

I hope they don't cater to casual players in any way. In every aspect of life, the harder you work, the better the outcome. This applies to love, work, sports, games and everything else. Games fail because they upset the balance and cater to casual players. This causes hardcore players (even as simple as people with more time on their hands) to get bored of the game because what is the point when everyone just gets handed "X".

I work full time in real estate, have 3 kids, am married, work on my house and I am still able to find the time to game....a lot. I just happen to include my kids in it now as well : )

Marcet

The game has to be fun before perfectly balanced.
Sometimes for the sake of balance the game becomes bland and boring, fun mechanics are stripped away and the game dies.

Dreoh

Military nodes might be where casual players thrive, as to become mayor all you have to do is win in an equalized pvp tournament

Though iirc players can improve their tournament stand-in character through other means to give them an advantage in the tournament. So maybe hardcore will still have an advantage here.

Archmonk

This system will be successful for player engagement and fame in the game. It will make people care about player interaction and what is going on in the community if they have a leader! I'd definitely listen in on my Mayor's weekly twitch stream if they had one, and if they didn't I'd demand it. Hopefully there will be quite significant decisions that can be made, like who to go to war with, and what trade routes to protect yotta yotta. It appears depending on the node, the different powers one may receive will be drastically different. Also the government structures won't be so biased toward one person dictating all the rules, except maybe for the military? Damn facists.

But more to the point of the discussion, and what most people already said, yea.. Not everyone should be mayor, hell it won't be possible at all. If there are 50,000 players on a server and 5 Metropolises, 50 Villages.... You'd need like 100 years before everyone personally got a turn.

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