The one thing that always bothers me though... and this goes for just about any game type out there, is that so many people want to change the games they are interested in before it even comes out.
I love how open your eyes are. And it's not just before it comes out. It will continue even after the game comes out. The number one thing a militant pver doesn't want to see is a pvp game succeed. And they don't want others to see it either.
The one thing that always bothers me though... and this goes for just about any game type out there, is that so many people want to change the games they are interested in before it even comes out.
I love how open your eyes are.
I love how people that agree with each other think they have open eyes, while people they disagree with have closed eyes.
Fact is, Steven has always said this game will be equal PvE and PvP.
The people with closed eyes are the ones that think the game will be more one of these than the other - regardless of which one they think it will be.
If you think this will be a PvP focused game, you are as close-eyed as someone that thinks it will be a PvE focused game.
I can't do this again with you in another thread brother Noaani lol. I don't know what the hell you're even talking about. Even a 50/50 split pvp/pve game is leaps and bounds more pvp focus than what most mainstream mmos have. There will be militant pvers looking to change that. That's all I was saying.
I can't do this again with you in another thread brother Noaani lol. I don't know what the hell you're even talking about. Even a 50/50 split pvp/pve game is leaps and bounds more pvp focus than what most mainstream mmos have. There will be militant pvers looking to change that. That's all I was saying.
As I said, that split is obviously more PvP focused than WoW (again, that game used only for easy reference).
Archeage though, that is about 70% PvP.
I agree that there will be people wanting to change the game to make it more PvE friendly - if you had the time to go back through the forum a few years you'll see me take them down quite frequently.
There are also people that want to make the game more PvP friendly. Likewise, you will see me take them down quite frequently.
Also, if you look at my arguments in regards to instancing and such, you will see that there is allocation for PvP in all of them. While PvP may be taken out of the actual encounter, there are ways you can add it back in to make things more interesting for all involved.
The vision from the very start of AoC, was to make it a PvP heavy game.
The vision from the start was to make PvE and PvP about equal.
That makes the game PvP heavy in comparison to something like WoW, but makes it more PvE focused than something like L2 or Archeage.
Looking at it, I think AoC and Lineage 2 have about the same PvE content.. I mean obviously without hard numbers you cannot tell right now. But Nothing about AoC screams PvE more loudly than Lineage 2 to me.
The vision from the very start of AoC, was to make it a PvP heavy game.
The vision from the start was to make PvE and PvP about equal.
That makes the game PvP heavy in comparison to something like WoW, but makes it more PvE focused than something like L2 or Archeage.
Looking at it, I think AoC and Lineage 2 have about the same PvE content.. I mean obviously without hard numbers you cannot tell right now. But Nothing about AoC screams PvE more loudly than Lineage 2 to me.
We will see I guess.
In terms of the amount of time people spend on PvE, I would possibly agree.
The difference is, L2 PvE was there as a means to an end - that end being PvP. No one played L2 because of it's PvE, and the game wasn't touted by it's developers as being about it's PvE.
Ashes is being talked about as equal amounts PvP and PvE.
To me, in order for this to be an accurate statement, people should be able to look at goals that are either PvE or PvP. While all players would need to participate in both, players that prefer one over the other should be able to find a worthwhile goal within each.
The game will not attract players that prefer PvP if the only viable long term goal in the game is PvE raiding, and the game will not attract players that prefer PvE if the only viable long term goal is PvP oriented.
So, the game needs to have both, and needs to find a way to make that work.
I loved it, but perhaps I did waste a lot of time, but I had fun, as you do with pvp.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
From own experience, L2 was very much pve orientated.
In order to xp quickly it required the right class for party make-up, a skilled team and getting to only possibly 2-3 xp spots within your level range that were optimum.. if you were not that lucky then your xp`ing took 50%-400% longer.
In my case level 77-78 took 150-200hrs of game play or 0.5-0.75% per hour and I thought that was great at the time. Each pvp encounter loss or general death took away 0.25% at that level.
Very much a pve game to spend a little time to pvp.
Our clan did have wars from time to time, but also made alliances with clans that were solely pve.
Some of the wars we chose were reasonably equal, some of the wars we didn`t chose were hard to work diplomatically out of.
Our clan was there for the social for what ever the day brought.. I do not recall if it was power, wealth or prestiege.. most were too old to care, just about a day out
Where as there were a small minority of clans that were all about being no. one.. and that is exactly what they did.
I still think AoC will end up more pve than pvp.. just because the backbone to the economy looks like it will require it
Very much a pve game to spend a little time to pvp.
This is what made it a PvP game.
People (most people) didn't PvE in L2 for the LvE, they PvE'ed in L2 to get some PvP in. The PvP was the goal.
I still agree that about as much time will be spent on PvE/PvP in Ashes as L2, but in order to be a game where both are equal, there needs to be a viable PvE end goal - and actual PvE progression path (which they have claimed they want to have). This is something L2 didn't really have.
The vision from the very start of AoC, was to make it a PvP heavy game.
The vision from the start was to make PvE and PvP about equal.
That makes the game PvP heavy in comparison to something like WoW, but makes it more PvE focused than something like L2 or Archeage.
Looking at it, I think AoC and Lineage 2 have about the same PvE content.. I mean obviously without hard numbers you cannot tell right now. But Nothing about AoC screams PvE more loudly than Lineage 2 to me.
We will see I guess.
In terms of the amount of time people spend on PvE, I would possibly agree.
The difference is, L2 PvE was there as a means to an end - that end being PvP. No one played L2 because of it's PvE, and the game wasn't touted by it's developers as being about it's PvE.
Ashes is being talked about as equal amounts PvP and PvE.
To me, in order for this to be an accurate statement, people should be able to look at goals that are either PvE or PvP. While all players would need to participate in both, players that prefer one over the other should be able to find a worthwhile goal within each.
The game will not attract players that prefer PvP if the only viable long term goal in the game is PvE raiding, and the game will not attract players that prefer PvE if the only viable long term goal is PvP oriented.
So, the game needs to have both, and needs to find a way to make that work.
Noaani said "No one played L2 because of it's PvE."
Beware sweeping statements. I played L2 for PVE, for a decade,
This is what I am talking about.. I played Lineage 2 for a full year before PvP became something I looked forward to. For the first year, I avoided it as much as I could because I was not used to it, and frankly.. I knew I would lose most battles because I was new to MMOs as a whole.
Even after the first year, raids and boss fights were looked forward to by everyone.
What made Lineage 2 PvP heavy, was the people on the server and their goals. We sometimes could go a week or two without big fights... just everyone grinding XP because of our XP loss during a castle siege, or because someone needed armor or weapons... PvE was alive and well in Lineage 2.. least it was on my server, and while I might be biased.. we had some of the biggest A hole clans on our server that lived and died for PvP. But even they took a break to PvE.
I think Lineage 2 would have been more PvP heavy had the penalties to your Xp not been so brutal. One castle siege could literally set you back a hundred hours of PvE grinding. While I am sure the average was less than that.. I can recall one castle siege that took about 70 hours of XP grinding from me... That was my final straw and why I ended up leaving the game.
You know the XP penalties are bad when, someone would die and would rather log off for the night and wait for an XP rez, then to be rez'd so they could continue grinding for 4 more hours. They literally leveled faster waiting for the rez, than to continue playing for the night... lol
The one thing that always bothers me though... and this goes for just about any game type out there, is that so many people want to change the games they are interested in before it even comes out.
I love how open your eyes are.
I love how people that agree with each other think they have open eyes, while people they disagree with have closed eyes.
Fact is, Steven has always said this game will be equal PvE and PvP.
The people with closed eyes are the ones that think the game will be more one of these than the other - regardless of which one they think it will be.
If you think this will be a PvP focused game, you are as close-eyed as someone that thinks it will be a PvE focused game.
In the end, the players on the servers will decide how much of each is happening. Some servers will be care bear and some will be blood baths. Lineage 2 was that way.. there was a server or two that PvP did not really have a place in.. sure it still happened, but overall it was nearly void of it.
This is why people play MMOs, they are shaped by the players, no matter what % of content is put into it for PvE or PvP.. the players will tip the scales of the server in the direction they want.
We sometimes could go a week or two without big fights.
This is akin to how I spent in year in EvE without any PvP at all - yet the game is absolutely still PvP focused.
To me, and it would seem to you as well, what makes a game PvE or PvP is the intention of the playerbase - which is driven in no small part by how the content is designed.
This means that - again, to me - a game where you PvE in order to get set up to be able to PvP is a PvP game.
I would say the opposite is true and that a game where you PvP to get set to do PvE is a PvE game, but I can't think of any such games, and I don't think one would ever exist.
This still says to me that Ashes needs to be a game with both PvE and PvP end goals for players.
We obviously have castles as an end goal for PvP players - but so is being mayor of a military node, and potentially also topping the arena.
If Intrepid follow through on their statements of progression based PvE content that only a single digit percent of the population will be able to defeat, then we have that PvE goal as well.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There were plenty of clans that were pve only and I even has some clan members that were almost purely wealth orientated that almost never left town but were very, very rich. So not sure what they get classified as.
BDO, when work was taking too much time, I spend many months never leaving town, just accumulating wealth.
So coming back to AoC, I do hope that there is sufficent to entertain that one could go PvX. PvE or even not leave town and just play the market!
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think L2 end game was very much pvp for some as if not near end game, it was hard to compete with the high level players. Trouble was there was an exponential xp requirements for gain at the higher levels and they kept moving the end game level..
We sometimes could go a week or two without big fights.
This means that - again, to me - a game where you PvE in order to get set up to be able to PvP is a PvP game.
.
I enjoyed PvP in Lineage 2, but I did not PvE to to be able to PvP. I PvE'd for the challenge of getting gear and wealth if I was lucky on a drop, so I could afford to buy stuff to continue to PvE.. PvP was what happened when Drama hit and it was a break from the day in and day out grind. There were more times than not, that I had no clue why our alliance was going into a PvP battel, and I was a guild leader in that alliance.. I was just asked to bring my clan there... which most of them were PvE oriented... they only went cause I asked, but I did not make it mandatory.. I did not care if they showed up or not. I was not about to force my clanmates to play part of the game they did not like, and I was definitely not going to ask them to lose XP over a couple of people who had their ego's hurt. But... I enjoyed a little PvP now and then so I showed up, and so would about half my clan...
Today is the first day I've ever heard anyone ever say they played L2 for the games PvE, and now there are two of them.
I can se people starting out in that game in 2003 or 2004 with no real interest in PvP or PvE - but only due to inexperience with MMO's.
No one went shopping around the MMO's available back then looking for PvE and picked L2. Anyone that claims to have done this is either mistaken after 18 years, or outright lying.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
In my case, I had had 3-4 unsuccessful attempts to play mmorpg`s on a 56k modem back in the day.. it was never about shopping for them back then as the info was from magazines not internet.
A change of location and a much better internet connection changed everything.
I somehow got an invite to beta, no idea how or why now.. knew nothing about the game..it was a mmo, not a pvp or pve game but a mmo.. and I thought I would give it a go..
I started L2 after just finishing BG.. it felt like a life BG at the time. (not that it is really anything that similar)
Open beta was packed and there was lots of pvp skirmishes but given that I did not know how to make money and selling to the store was a really bad way to make money starting out, with the threat of losing gear through death be that pve or pvp, stayed away from pvp. They changed that drop situation after a few updates as it was a little harsh.
It was not until in a clan for some time and under pressure to support them in pvp that pvp started for me.. had I been in a clan that perhaps was even more neutral, then I would probably not encountered it much at all.
But changing locations again and being both on a poor internet and getting region locked out of alternatives put an end to mmorpgs for me for a long while
I somehow got an invite to beta, no idea how or why now.. knew nothing about the game..it was a mmo, not a pvp or pve game but a mmo.. and I thought I would give it a go..
Today is the first day I've ever heard anyone ever say they played L2 for the games PvE, and now there are two of them.
I can se people starting out in that game in 2003 or 2004 with no real interest in PvP or PvE - but only due to inexperience with MMO's.
No one went shopping around the MMO's available back then looking for PvE and picked L2. Anyone that claims to have done this is either mistaken after 18 years, or outright lying.
I was a CoD, Tom Clancy Raven Shield, Ghost Recon Player.. all FPS all of the time. I cannot honestly tell you how I fell into the Lineage 2 Beta, it was a long time ago and I am getting older now (46).. What I can tell you, was that when I fist started the game, I thought it was dumb and slow...
A friend of mine who also was a FPS player had joined with me... the next thing I know, we were having a blast... Just talking and laughing and killing stuff... Then other people on our FPS team started coming into our chat room room to talk to us and heard us having fun, and then they joined.. and then the fun really started.
Lineage 2 in Beta was relaxing to us compared to non stop FPS games. We knew each other while playing FPS games.. but we really got to know each other playing Lineage 2. we had more time to just talk and hang out. All of the people from our FPS team who joined L2, I still keep up with today, and the ones who stayed playing the FPS games have been forgotten sadly.
So, we did not join for PvE or PvP, we joined for friendship and having fun. PvE was what we did while hanging out, we knew PvP was there, it was just not a big blip on our radar. So we enjoyed the PvE part of it, because of the things that came along with it... talking about classes and plans on how to progress and strategies for certain fights... But the main thing we got out of it, was fun.
Todays MMOs have changed quite a bit since back then... Back in Lineage 2 and even early WoW.. communication was needed to progress, where are as now you can play most MMOs solo to end game or at least close to it.
This is why I got interested in AoC... No group finder.. communication needed to progress.. just the basics of what MMOs used to to be with upgraded graphics and mechanics.
Todays MMOs have changed quite a bit since back then...
This is true. This is also why I keep talking about EQ2 as a reference for PvE.
While the game has a good number of develoeprs from that game, it is also a game that even today requires communication and skill to succeed at PvE.
As to your history - basically you were a PvP player before you discovered MMO's.
In my above post where I quoted myself, that is applicable here as well. You may have run L2 PvE, sure - but only because you hadn't run PvE content in any other game.
If you started out with MMO's on EQ, you would have laughed at L2's PvE. Actual, honest, out loud, deep belly laughs.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ah.. if your going to go that way, then yes, in the early days, I could not get sufficient stable connection for MMO`s but for FPS games I did not care. They are usually rounds, so if your not being ranked, causal then dropping out mid match was not an issue. MMO drop out, drop gear, de-level.. bit of a game killer.
Thoroughly loved playing Tribes, Counter-Strike, Quake & MechCommander. So similar background.
And pre-internet days when it was local networks and MUD`s, well my household was banned from logging on as a sibling decided to test just how many viruses could be uploaded before the network went bust!
Todays MMOs have changed quite a bit since back then...
This is true. This is also why I keep talking about EQ2 as a reference for PvE.
While the game has a good number of develoeprs from that game, it is also a game that even today requires communication and skill to succeed at PvE.
As to your history - basically you were a PvP player before you discovered MMO's.
In my above post where I quoted myself, that is applicable here as well. You may have run L2 PvE, sure - but only because you hadn't run PvE content in any other game.
If you started out with MMO's on EQ, you would have laughed at L2's PvE. Actual, honest, out loud, deep belly laughs.
You are right and the rest of us on the forums are completely wrong... how dare we say what we think and feel before asking you to sum up our thoughts for us...
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave... Please for the love of whatever you believe in ... Stop trying to out think everyone on the forums. I do not think you realize how dumb you come off some times.
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave...
I didn't say this was the case.
I said you were a PvP player before you discovered L2 - FPS games are PvP at their heart.
You may well have been someone that enjoyed PvE far more than PvP, but at the point you started L2, you hadn't realized this because you hadn't played a game with PvE.
Then you found L2, your first game with PvE at all. You may have enjoyed the PvE there, but only because it was the first PvE in a game you had experienced.
This is basically what I said right from the start, the only reason you would think L2 PvE was good was you had no previous MMO experience.
Basically, I made an assumption about your gaming history based on your opinion of one game, and I was 100% right. You went to L2 with exactly zero MMO experience.
Now, if you think me being 100% right about such a thing makes me look dumb, that's little more than an interesting position for you to take.
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave...
...
I said you were a PvP player before you discovered L2 - FPS games are PvP at their heart.
...
Borderlands, Destiny, Outriders, Left 4 Dead and all the campaign modes of any FPS would like to have a word with you.
Yeah, because these games existed in 2003...
Edit to add; you could go and argue the games he said he played if you want, that's cool. My question would then be - why does he need a team to play the single player mode of those games?
You are too busy trying to catch me out to actually follow the conversation.
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave...
...
I said you were a PvP player before you discovered L2 - FPS games are PvP at their heart.
...
Borderlands, Destiny, Outriders, Left 4 Dead and all the campaign modes of any FPS would like to have a word with you.
Yeah, because these games existed in 2003...
Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok, Doom, Wolfenstein, Half Life, Timesplitters, Serious Sam, Halo, Metroid Prime, all had good fun campaign modes and were pre-2003.
And that's just a select few and not including their sequels that also existed at the time.
It seems more that you have some preconceived bias against FPS's and FPS players and assuming they only play them for pvp.
Edit: Oh but wait, you're Noanni, so you're going to completely disregard all of this and go on some tangent or just say I'm wrong even though the evidence is right there.
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave...
...
I said you were a PvP player before you discovered L2 - FPS games are PvP at their heart.
...
Borderlands, Destiny, Outriders, Left 4 Dead and all the campaign modes of any FPS would like to have a word with you.
Yeah, because these games existed in 2003...
Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok, Doom, Wolfenstein, Half Life, Timesplitters, Serious Sam, Halo, Metroid Prime, all had good fun campaign modes and were pre-2003.
And that's just a select few and not including their sequels that also existed at the time.
It seems more that you have some preconceived bias against FPS's and FPS players and assuming they only play them for pvp.
Edit to add; you could go and argue the games he said he played if you want, that's cool. My question would then be - why does he need a team to play the single player mode of those games?
You are too busy trying to catch me out to actually follow the conversation.
Comments
I love how open your eyes are.
Fact is, Steven has always said this game will be equal PvE and PvP.
The people with closed eyes are the ones that think the game will be more one of these than the other - regardless of which one they think it will be.
If you think this will be a PvP focused game, you are as close-eyed as someone that thinks it will be a PvE focused game.
As I said, that split is obviously more PvP focused than WoW (again, that game used only for easy reference).
Archeage though, that is about 70% PvP.
I agree that there will be people wanting to change the game to make it more PvE friendly - if you had the time to go back through the forum a few years you'll see me take them down quite frequently.
There are also people that want to make the game more PvP friendly. Likewise, you will see me take them down quite frequently.
Also, if you look at my arguments in regards to instancing and such, you will see that there is allocation for PvP in all of them. While PvP may be taken out of the actual encounter, there are ways you can add it back in to make things more interesting for all involved.
Looking at it, I think AoC and Lineage 2 have about the same PvE content.. I mean obviously without hard numbers you cannot tell right now. But Nothing about AoC screams PvE more loudly than Lineage 2 to me.
We will see I guess.
In terms of the amount of time people spend on PvE, I would possibly agree.
The difference is, L2 PvE was there as a means to an end - that end being PvP. No one played L2 because of it's PvE, and the game wasn't touted by it's developers as being about it's PvE.
Ashes is being talked about as equal amounts PvP and PvE.
To me, in order for this to be an accurate statement, people should be able to look at goals that are either PvE or PvP. While all players would need to participate in both, players that prefer one over the other should be able to find a worthwhile goal within each.
The game will not attract players that prefer PvP if the only viable long term goal in the game is PvE raiding, and the game will not attract players that prefer PvE if the only viable long term goal is PvP oriented.
So, the game needs to have both, and needs to find a way to make that work.
Beware sweeping statements. I played L2 for PVE, for a decade,
That was a wasted decade.
In order to xp quickly it required the right class for party make-up, a skilled team and getting to only possibly 2-3 xp spots within your level range that were optimum.. if you were not that lucky then your xp`ing took 50%-400% longer.
In my case level 77-78 took 150-200hrs of game play or 0.5-0.75% per hour and I thought that was great at the time. Each pvp encounter loss or general death took away 0.25% at that level.
Very much a pve game to spend a little time to pvp.
Our clan did have wars from time to time, but also made alliances with clans that were solely pve.
Some of the wars we chose were reasonably equal, some of the wars we didn`t chose were hard to work diplomatically out of.
Our clan was there for the social for what ever the day brought.. I do not recall if it was power, wealth or prestiege.. most were too old to care, just about a day out
Where as there were a small minority of clans that were all about being no. one.. and that is exactly what they did.
I still think AoC will end up more pve than pvp.. just because the backbone to the economy looks like it will require it
People (most people) didn't PvE in L2 for the LvE, they PvE'ed in L2 to get some PvP in. The PvP was the goal.
I still agree that about as much time will be spent on PvE/PvP in Ashes as L2, but in order to be a game where both are equal, there needs to be a viable PvE end goal - and actual PvE progression path (which they have claimed they want to have). This is something L2 didn't really have.
This is what I am talking about.. I played Lineage 2 for a full year before PvP became something I looked forward to. For the first year, I avoided it as much as I could because I was not used to it, and frankly.. I knew I would lose most battles because I was new to MMOs as a whole.
Even after the first year, raids and boss fights were looked forward to by everyone.
What made Lineage 2 PvP heavy, was the people on the server and their goals. We sometimes could go a week or two without big fights... just everyone grinding XP because of our XP loss during a castle siege, or because someone needed armor or weapons... PvE was alive and well in Lineage 2.. least it was on my server, and while I might be biased.. we had some of the biggest A hole clans on our server that lived and died for PvP. But even they took a break to PvE.
I think Lineage 2 would have been more PvP heavy had the penalties to your Xp not been so brutal. One castle siege could literally set you back a hundred hours of PvE grinding. While I am sure the average was less than that.. I can recall one castle siege that took about 70 hours of XP grinding from me... That was my final straw and why I ended up leaving the game.
You know the XP penalties are bad when, someone would die and would rather log off for the night and wait for an XP rez, then to be rez'd so they could continue grinding for 4 more hours. They literally leveled faster waiting for the rez, than to continue playing for the night... lol
In the end, the players on the servers will decide how much of each is happening. Some servers will be care bear and some will be blood baths. Lineage 2 was that way.. there was a server or two that PvP did not really have a place in.. sure it still happened, but overall it was nearly void of it.
This is why people play MMOs, they are shaped by the players, no matter what % of content is put into it for PvE or PvP.. the players will tip the scales of the server in the direction they want.
To me, and it would seem to you as well, what makes a game PvE or PvP is the intention of the playerbase - which is driven in no small part by how the content is designed.
This means that - again, to me - a game where you PvE in order to get set up to be able to PvP is a PvP game.
I would say the opposite is true and that a game where you PvP to get set to do PvE is a PvE game, but I can't think of any such games, and I don't think one would ever exist.
This still says to me that Ashes needs to be a game with both PvE and PvP end goals for players.
We obviously have castles as an end goal for PvP players - but so is being mayor of a military node, and potentially also topping the arena.
If Intrepid follow through on their statements of progression based PvE content that only a single digit percent of the population will be able to defeat, then we have that PvE goal as well.
BDO, when work was taking too much time, I spend many months never leaving town, just accumulating wealth.
So coming back to AoC, I do hope that there is sufficent to entertain that one could go PvX. PvE or even not leave town and just play the market!
Playing the market (whether via trading or producing and selling) is it's own thing - it is neither PvP nor PvE.
I enjoyed PvP in Lineage 2, but I did not PvE to to be able to PvP. I PvE'd for the challenge of getting gear and wealth if I was lucky on a drop, so I could afford to buy stuff to continue to PvE.. PvP was what happened when Drama hit and it was a break from the day in and day out grind. There were more times than not, that I had no clue why our alliance was going into a PvP battel, and I was a guild leader in that alliance.. I was just asked to bring my clan there... which most of them were PvE oriented... they only went cause I asked, but I did not make it mandatory.. I did not care if they showed up or not. I was not about to force my clanmates to play part of the game they did not like, and I was definitely not going to ask them to lose XP over a couple of people who had their ego's hurt. But... I enjoyed a little PvP now and then so I showed up, and so would about half my clan...
Today is the first day I've ever heard anyone ever say they played L2 for the games PvE, and now there are two of them.
I can se people starting out in that game in 2003 or 2004 with no real interest in PvP or PvE - but only due to inexperience with MMO's.
No one went shopping around the MMO's available back then looking for PvE and picked L2. Anyone that claims to have done this is either mistaken after 18 years, or outright lying.
A change of location and a much better internet connection changed everything.
I somehow got an invite to beta, no idea how or why now.. knew nothing about the game..it was a mmo, not a pvp or pve game but a mmo.. and I thought I would give it a go..
I started L2 after just finishing BG.. it felt like a life BG at the time. (not that it is really anything that similar)
Open beta was packed and there was lots of pvp skirmishes but given that I did not know how to make money and selling to the store was a really bad way to make money starting out, with the threat of losing gear through death be that pve or pvp, stayed away from pvp. They changed that drop situation after a few updates as it was a little harsh.
It was not until in a clan for some time and under pressure to support them in pvp that pvp started for me.. had I been in a clan that perhaps was even more neutral, then I would probably not encountered it much at all.
But changing locations again and being both on a poor internet and getting region locked out of alternatives put an end to mmorpgs for me for a long while
In other words
I was a CoD, Tom Clancy Raven Shield, Ghost Recon Player.. all FPS all of the time. I cannot honestly tell you how I fell into the Lineage 2 Beta, it was a long time ago and I am getting older now (46).. What I can tell you, was that when I fist started the game, I thought it was dumb and slow...
A friend of mine who also was a FPS player had joined with me... the next thing I know, we were having a blast... Just talking and laughing and killing stuff... Then other people on our FPS team started coming into our chat room room to talk to us and heard us having fun, and then they joined.. and then the fun really started.
Lineage 2 in Beta was relaxing to us compared to non stop FPS games. We knew each other while playing FPS games.. but we really got to know each other playing Lineage 2. we had more time to just talk and hang out. All of the people from our FPS team who joined L2, I still keep up with today, and the ones who stayed playing the FPS games have been forgotten sadly.
So, we did not join for PvE or PvP, we joined for friendship and having fun. PvE was what we did while hanging out, we knew PvP was there, it was just not a big blip on our radar. So we enjoyed the PvE part of it, because of the things that came along with it... talking about classes and plans on how to progress and strategies for certain fights... But the main thing we got out of it, was fun.
Todays MMOs have changed quite a bit since back then... Back in Lineage 2 and even early WoW.. communication was needed to progress, where are as now you can play most MMOs solo to end game or at least close to it.
This is why I got interested in AoC... No group finder.. communication needed to progress.. just the basics of what MMOs used to to be with upgraded graphics and mechanics.
While the game has a good number of develoeprs from that game, it is also a game that even today requires communication and skill to succeed at PvE.
As to your history - basically you were a PvP player before you discovered MMO's.
In my above post where I quoted myself, that is applicable here as well. You may have run L2 PvE, sure - but only because you hadn't run PvE content in any other game.
If you started out with MMO's on EQ, you would have laughed at L2's PvE. Actual, honest, out loud, deep belly laughs.
Thoroughly loved playing Tribes, Counter-Strike, Quake & MechCommander. So similar background.
And pre-internet days when it was local networks and MUD`s, well my household was banned from logging on as a sibling decided to test just how many viruses could be uploaded before the network went bust!
You are right and the rest of us on the forums are completely wrong... how dare we say what we think and feel before asking you to sum up our thoughts for us...
Playing a FPS game does not make me a PvP person. I enjoy PvP.. but it not what I crave... Please for the love of whatever you believe in ... Stop trying to out think everyone on the forums. I do not think you realize how dumb you come off some times.
I didn't say this was the case.
I said you were a PvP player before you discovered L2 - FPS games are PvP at their heart.
You may well have been someone that enjoyed PvE far more than PvP, but at the point you started L2, you hadn't realized this because you hadn't played a game with PvE.
Then you found L2, your first game with PvE at all. You may have enjoyed the PvE there, but only because it was the first PvE in a game you had experienced.
This is basically what I said right from the start, the only reason you would think L2 PvE was good was you had no previous MMO experience.
Basically, I made an assumption about your gaming history based on your opinion of one game, and I was 100% right. You went to L2 with exactly zero MMO experience.
Now, if you think me being 100% right about such a thing makes me look dumb, that's little more than an interesting position for you to take.
Borderlands, Destiny, Outriders, Left 4 Dead and all the campaign modes of any FPS would like to have a word with you.
Yeah, because these games existed in 2003...
Edit to add; you could go and argue the games he said he played if you want, that's cool. My question would then be - why does he need a team to play the single player mode of those games?
You are too busy trying to catch me out to actually follow the conversation.
Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok, Doom, Wolfenstein, Half Life, Timesplitters, Serious Sam, Halo, Metroid Prime, all had good fun campaign modes and were pre-2003.
And that's just a select few and not including their sequels that also existed at the time.
It seems more that you have some preconceived bias against FPS's and FPS players and assuming they only play them for pvp.
Edit: Oh but wait, you're Noanni, so you're going to completely disregard all of this and go on some tangent or just say I'm wrong even though the evidence is right there.