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Resurrection while in combat: Yay or Nay?
Asgerr
Member
I have seen a number of MMOs approach this differently.
Combat Rez can be wonderful to survive tough encounters and makes healers feel awesome for saving their party from a wipe.
On the other hand it can make PvP stupidly annoying and Raid content too easy.
What would you like to see? Resurrection while in combat Yay or Nay?
Combat Rez can be wonderful to survive tough encounters and makes healers feel awesome for saving their party from a wipe.
On the other hand it can make PvP stupidly annoying and Raid content too easy.
What would you like to see? Resurrection while in combat Yay or Nay?
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
But definatly allowed during combat.
It's proper balancing only comes down to Cast time and cooldown time.
Also how much exp does it recover from death(assuming it would in ashes).
Aren't we all sinners?
Not saying that this will be the case for Ashes I just wanted to throw out a point that res changes high end encounter design. WOW only has a handful of combat res spells and they have a long cooldown. This allows for some flexibility with enrage timers in raids. The content in WOW does not have to be tuned as hard.
If we do get any instanced raids encounters in Ashes. The ability to res in combat would defiantly have to be taken into account with tuning raid difficulty.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
That is likely the best option.
You got me thinking though...
I would instead like to see it be considered as a 2 person ritual in combat. Like you start casting it and a second player needs to help you channel it in order to coordinate a res in combat. Kind of like the summoning stones in WOW.
Out of combat could just be a normal spell.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Make a necro your emergency rez caster, and clerics for more general, less important ones.
IMO having absolutely no combat-rez essentially encourages two things:
1. Those who died during combat are much more likely to go afk
2. Deaths -> awww we can't win let's wipe & restart
... it's boring, and wastes ppl's time.
Simiarly, rez`ing in PvE from accidental party wipes would be tedious and infuriating if long cast / long cool down.
Comes down to what is defined as long, I guess long being 30sec, 2min, 10min, 20min etc?
In most cases for heard end-game content. Someone being down that long would guarantee enrage. The tuning of fights is such that you need everyone, even the HEALERS!!!!! to be doing as much DPS as possible to get the kill. This is the case in WOW/FFXIV at least.
I would not want to fight a boss where anyone could be down for more than 30secs and we still have enough DPS to get the kill. Just sounds too easy.
What I am saying is that if they are tuning these end game fights to be hard, it is not a issue because you will just wipe it up if more than one person dies or someone is dead for too long.
I just don't like combat res because it brings too much attrition too the table. This is true in both PvE and PvP.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
That is coming from a primarily glass cannon player.
Things like this are great for DPS checks, but as a general rule, a check of any sort that is this tightly gated only works in a game witha fairly linear gearing paradigm.
In most top end raid fights (actual raids, with 20+ people), someone being down for 30 seconds can be made up with two or three DPS gear upgrades spread around the raid. If there is that small of a gap, it means your raid doesn't have a shot at the content until they have literally all the gear previous to it.
It permanently adds a complication to encounter design where mechanics and can be cheesed by abusing purposeful deaths, and makes everything easier globally.
Normally I would agree with "more decisions=good", but in this case you are taking decisions the devs could be making with encounter design and giving them too the players. The devs will have less decisions.
I used FFXIV as a case and point. It is not a decision the devs make to add a enrage timer to each fight in savage/ex. It is outright mandatory when all healers can battle res, and some DPS can battle res. If there was no enrage time many of the fights could be cleared in a hand full of pulls. It would just be too easy.
It is also not great in PvP, because it could just make small skirmishes over a caravan last hours instead of a few minutes.
The more I think about it the more I am against battle res.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I expect better than this from WoW developers, let alone Ashes.
That just sounds like loosely tuned fights. I have said many times that adding more people to a fight does not magically make it harder. In fact most cases it makes it easier by a landslide. One person dying in a 25 to 40 man raid so much lower of a DPS loss than one person dying in a 8-10 man raid. The difference is astronomical. Especially when a lot of these 25-40 man encounters don't make the whole party react to mechanics nearly as often as 8-10 man raids. In a lot of cases I have noticed that DEVs can't even come up with creative enough things to happen to 25-40 people in a boss room, but this argument is mostly about battle res.
I just honestly feel like it is too forgiving in both PvE and PvP. The idea I had for it to be a ritual early in the thread was good to me because it makes it hard to pull off and require good coordination, whist sacrificing some more of your teams action economy. A lot of these games just let you pop people back up quickly.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resurrection
I am thinking they are going to give us combat res anyways. That spell would say otherwise, or the rank 2 or 3 version would be in combat. I think it is a bad choice for the game long term, but I don't think people care. I think people just want things to be easy and convenient.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
It is not the ONLY thing that makes encounters hard, it just guarantees that everything is done as close to perfect as possible. It keeps scrubs from cheesing encounters, and forces tanks/healers to actually use their DPS moves while tanking/healing. The content is great, but if you had 20-30mins to do a 8-11 minute fight. You could get away with a lot of mistakes.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
No, just fights where the tuning isn't coming from DPS.
Tuning in an encounter can come from a number of reasons. If the encounter has 4 or 5 mechanics that will wipe the raid if done incorrectly, then the encounter becomes harder the longer it goes on for - due to player fatigue.
I've had contested encounters (where if we fail the pull we will lose the encounter) that should have taken 10 minutes take upwards of 45 minutes instead, due to needing to recover from near wipes several times.
This is far more interesting content than having everything tuned for max DPS all the time.
Player fatigue is nothing. It is a myth. I have wiped on a single encounter for more than 16 hours straight and not had a pull where I was going 110% percent. At most I might have to take a piss or grab a drink once ever 3-4 hours.
That is not interesting. That is a scrub group getting a kill they did not deserve. I don't want to play a game where ass hats can fuck up a pull so bad it takes more than 4x as long as it should be and we still get loot. That kind of crap tells me the game is too easy. My first thought after doing something like that would be to find a new guild. My second thought would be to find a harder game.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
If you are pulling an encounter for 16 hours straight, you are not giving it 100% concentration for that whole time. You are concentrating for the pull, the raid is wiping, and you stop concentrating.
With a long pull, you are giving it 100% of your focus for the full duration - and it can indeed be tiring.
This statement suggests you think the only factor involved in a guild not being considered a scrub guild is the DPS they can output. That seems very one dimensional to me. Every raid progression should have DPS checks in it, but if that is the only thing it has going for it - or even the main thing it has going for it - it is bad content.
You mistake what I said.
With the encounter I talked about above, we didn't almost wipe because of anything the raid did wrong. We almost wiped several times because the AoE's on the encounter that particular pull happened basically at the same time. This is a downside to raids having some aspects of them being random - sometimes things happen that make the encounter far harder than they should.
If the encounter were instanced, we would have wiped and given it another pull with a better AoE timer.
That wasn't an option, there was another raid ready to pull.
As soon as the other guild saw when the AoE's were triggering, they laughed and started getting ready, they had the assumption that we were 100% going to have to end the pull.
We didn't.
We carried on. We managed to deal with the mechanics the encounter threw at us, but we did so many times by using literally every character in the raid other than the tank and his healers. That obviously meant DPS on the encounter itself was all but non-existent for minutes at a time.
We managed to survive 32 hits of those two AoE's (they were 72 seconds apart). We almost didn't survive on 4 of them.
It is perhaps worth also pointing out that this was the only time that encounter ever spawned on our server. The contested content at the time had 12 encounters - and one of these would spawn about every week. Some servers never saw some encounters at all.
This was a top end encounter that we had one pull to try and kill-that spawned with a near broken AoE timer.
You say that you would leave to find a better guild on that situation. We finished off the day as the un-denied best guild on the server - because the only other guild that was in the running watched us repeatedly survive situations as a raid that they would have wiped from.
Again, DPS checks are great - just not for every encounter. There should be encounters that test other aspects of raiding, and many of these aspects are mutually exclusive with having a timer. Hell, I've seen raid encounters that had a maximum DPS the raid could do on it - and if you went over that maximum allowed DPS it would wipe the raid.
I recall a raid once that had to be aborted at 10% as the group size was small and was going too slow and in the end several party members ran out of shots
I cannot imagine playing that long without a break of any sort! Wow... and yikes at the same time!
If AoC has limited weight capacity, then I guess players will not be able go out with too many expendables and have to return quite soon when full / nearing over weight.
I hope not like BDO with 50million micro inventory items to make space for!
Ever hear of chain pulling? Literally hours on in of non-stop pulling to prog a encounter. It is outright offensive to take a break more than once in a 2-3 hour period for anything other then to reset the instance or repair. Which you better make it quick. It is a myth.
People have put in 40+ hour non-stop sessions on arcade games to get scores that require intense amounts of time, and focus. 95% of that time is spent playing at what would be considered the skill cap of that game. A zone beyond what the original game designers thought was reasonably possible to play at.
Getting fatigued from a 46min pull just sounds comical to me.
I honestly believe that at a minimum, any encounter without some sort of enrage timer is too easy. The enrage timer does not have to be "balls to the walls" for every boss in a raid tier, but it should exist to guarantee at least some level of competence to clear the encounter.
I did not mistake anything you said. It just sounds like awful raid design. You explained it well enough.
The event you described just now makes me imagine a 45 minute benny hill skit. Which actually would be fatiguing if you had that benny hill theme music going the whole encounter.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
It's should hurt to die on a boss encounter, if you die you die. However, having a combat rez with a long cd can "clutch" a boss kill.
Im wow classic for example the druid class was the only class with a combat rez (30 min cd), this meant that every raid wanted atleast one druid for the rez (and a buff).
So it would be cool if ashes have combat rez specific to a class or two, like cleric+ranger or something. It will give that class a role and a need.