Try your hand at game balancing

Game balance is an interesting thing and I feel a lot of players don't appreciate just how hard it is to do. I received the following comment on my latest video:

If I hear one more person say cant balance rather than wont balance as a feeble excuse for not having the competence to balance a game.... XD
If you cant/wont balance a mutiplayer game, where game balance is critical/crucial, should you really be making one ?
For me you are in the wrong industry.

So, if "can't balance" is just an excuse, let's do a little balancing exercise. Feel free to do this yourself too if you like.

Imagine you have a mage and a ranger. Each class has the same health, defences and range, and they each have 2 abilities:

mage skills:
fireball - deals [x] damage | 2 second cast time | no cooldown
power enhancement - increases mage damage output by [y] amount for 10 seconds | 30 second cooldown

ranger skills:
power shot - deals [a] damage | 1 second cast time | no cooldown
focus mind - decreases the cast cast time of power shot by 0.5 seconds for [c] seconds | 30 second cooldown

Balance these abilities by changing the variables [x], [y], [a] and [c] so that both the mage and ranger deal the same damage over 30 seconds.

This took me about an hour to do, and that's for just 2 classes with 2 abilities each. Your average mmorpg has anywhere from 5-15 different classes, with up to 30 abilities each.

Have a go yourself and see what you come up with. If you managed to do it, try adding a cleric class also with 2 abilities:

cleric skills:
exocism - deals [d] damage | 0.5 second cast time | no cooldown
drain life - deal [e] damage every second for 10 seconds | 1 second cast time | 10 second cooldown

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Comments

tautau

The more simple the equations, the more boring the game.

The more variables there are, the more interesting.

The greater the standard deviation of the variables, the less predictable the outcomes. Then introduce other distributions than the normal distribution (binomial, poission....) and you will need a group players who can really think on their feet. @grisu and @Yaku are correct, math wins.

Sathrago

Guys. I don't think he was trying to make this out as the way things are balanced or to show how "hard" or "easy" it is. I believe it is to highlight the MULTITUDE of considerations needed to generate what would be considered a balancing of classes, to a near impossible degree. Sure you can make them do the same damage, but without it being a carbon copy there will always be disparities and players should realize that by now.

I believe the real balance comes into play with class role fulfilment and providing said roles within the game to fulfil. using the above classes as an example, you would create an encounter with a boss that needs the best of all three. Let's take a crack at that too.

We have a giant slime boss inside a large underground sewage room with 4 tunnel entrances on each corner. You then have pipes that run diagonally up and down the sides of the room like ramps. The boss leashes if you exit into any of the tunnels.

For this fight there are going to be three mechanics. The first mechanic, The slime boss creates slime droplet adds that are slow with high health but deal a ton of damage if they get near someone. The second mechanic, the slime boss will squeeze itself down into a condensed form charging up a high damage aoe and generating a shield on its health. Breaking the shield interrupts the aoe. Third mechanic, the slime boss gets worked up, becoming untargetable as it starts rapidly bouncing around the room for 10 seconds dealing damage to those it rams into.
In this scenario, the ranger or the cleric can take on the role of kiting the slime droplets around the room or up the pipes on the walls. The mage and ranger can deal with the second mechanic with their burst cooldowns. Lastly, the bouncing mechanic allows the cleric to deal damage over time to the boss when the others can not target it.

Even here, not everyone can do everything, but most everyone can help out in various ways and there are things that they can excel at or accomplish.

JxFriz

Yaku wrote: »

A lot of remarkably stupid comments in here. Balance is not as simple as an equation when you are creating a fantasy world with unique or overlapping purposes for different classes. Trying to balance classes in an mmo steamrolls diversity so that you can play every character at the same 'level'. Then you end up where every class fills a similar roll and there is no class identity. Please, please, please, go try to ruin a different developing mmo, not this one.

You didn't quote so I don't know if you are referring to my comment or not but if you are please read the entire section at the end where I specifically say that game balance is a difficult multi varied process my point is this example is dog shit. This example makes game design and balance seem easy. If you are making a point about how balance can be hard then give an example f balance that can be boiled down to a simple equation you didn't make a point at all. This post does not accomplish its goal, this post says one thing but illustrates another and it weakens the whole argument. This post is counter productive to its goal.

Wandering Mist

Littlekenny21 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

mage skills:
fireball - deals [x] damage | 2 second cast time | no cooldown
power enhancement - increases mage damage output by [y] amount for 10 seconds | 30 second cooldown

ranger skills:
power shot - deals [a] damage | 1 second cast time | no cooldown
focus mind - decreases the cast cast time of power shot by 0.5 seconds for [c] seconds | 30 second cooldown

If [y] is 100% and [c] is 10 seconds, as long as [a]=[x]/2 then this is balanced.

Took me about 10 seconds, and about 2 minutes to check my thinking.

I am assuming no latency issues and a skill queue so there is no delay while the ranger is casting an ability every half second, and also that both buff abilities have no cast time.

Edit, didn't read Sathragos post - decided to work it out before I even finished reading the OP. He basically came to the same conclusion as me.

Don't know where the hour came from for the original post but that question is a matter of seconds, although doing same damage over 30 seconds doesn't mean balanced and looking at it on a vacuum like that would cause imbalance e.g. ranger having more frequent opportunities to dodge and less overkill damage from the ranger and drain life doing damage even if the target breaks LoS.
Also these would likely be values that's scale from stats (in a vacuum [X] still = 2[a])

It's harder when it comes to aoe and much harder when it's buffs, debuffs or cc e.g. if the is a damage increase buff, a flat amount would benefit the ranger most and a % would make the mage burst more of a threat.

The hour came from the fact that I'm terrible at maths, but still, congrats to the people who found this easy.

You're right that this simple example in a vacuum doesn't equal balanced, especially if we were to pit these 3 classes against one another in pvp.

My point is that a lot of players demand having tons of gameplay choices and then complain when the game isn't balanced. As found out by Sathrago, even this simple example has some nuances to it that need to be taken into account, like burst vs sustained damage output.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Guys. I don't think he was trying to make this out as the way things are balanced or to show how "hard" or "easy" it is. I believe it is to highlight the MULTITUDE of considerations needed to generate what would be considered a balancing of classes,

Indeed, and in my opinion this was achieved quite well.

The fact that some of us were able to easily find a way to make it work does not mean it wasnt a good example, as we all came up with the most basic, most boring way of achieving balance - and in my case that is after 20 years of looking at MMO class balance (and often being disappointed by what I saw).

akabear

I`m up for as much diversity as possible but the only thing I really care about is when there is grossly over-powered players.

In ESO, from memory, my character had something like 7k HP with a reasonably solid build, but to be killed with a single 30k hit...that`s not particularly conducive to engaging pvp.

So long there are sufficient mechanics to ensure as at least a good few volleys back and forth before death, then all good with me.

grisu

I always love it when people try to justify "you can't balance and make everyone do the same dmg cause it kills class diversity". Please what the hell.
Dmg output doesn't equal play style, dmg output doesn't mean all classes look at the same things.
Dmg output is just the result AFTER you played your way.
One thing WoW did amazingly well was their class identity. A Beastmaster Hunter would play extremely different from a Shadow Priest. One used rotations, other used priority lists. One used dots, one relied on your pet. One needed to find opportunities to stay still, the other needed to make sure their pet stayed alive.

This has nothing to do with how much dmg anyone does, this is the play style and if you played your role well you should be rewarded with similar results and not just feel like a burden because your class just isn't capable of dealing any adequat dmg "cause balance would ruin my class".

Do you even realize how contradicting you sound in the context of Ashes? There will be SO MANY options for a class. Gear choices, SPELL CHOICES, Spell progression. How will they make every possible combination feel "diverse" hu?
Just completely undervaluing parts of those choices to funnel you into certain other choices that fit the class identity better?
Ashes wants to be driven by choices, if you want to make your thief that cannonically is a single target burster into an AoE monster because the class OFFERS those AoE spells (let's say in the form of traps and using a bow with explosive arrows) WHY in the name of anything that makes sense, should you not be allowed to be as successfull with it playing that way as is a mage that chose to go with all the ice aoe spells his class offers? One will rely on setups(for example), or has to get close and personal to set the traps, the other can stay save at a distance. The thief is harder to execute(for example) and yet, due to class "identity" he will never even come close to the output of the mage. sure. top kek.
Explain that to me how this example kills diversity.

Sathrago

grisu wrote: »

I always love it when people try to justify "you can't balance and make everyone do the same dmg cause it kills class diversity". Please what the hell.
Dmg output doesn't equal play style, dmg output doesn't mean all classes look at the same things.
Dmg output is just the result AFTER you played your way.
One thing WoW did amazingly well was their class identity. A Beastmaster Hunter would play extremely different from a Shadow Priest. One used rotations, other used priority lists. One used dots, one relied on your pet. One needed to find opportunities to stay still, the other needed to make sure their pet stayed alive.

This has nothing to do with how much dmg anyone does, this is the play style and if you played your role well you should be rewarded with similar results and not just feel like a burden because your class just isn't capable of dealing any adequat dmg "cause balance would ruin my class".

Do you even realize how contradicting you sound in the context of Ashes? There will be SO MANY options for a class. Gear choices, SPELL CHOICES, Spell progression. How will they make every possible combination feel "diverse" hu?
Just completely undervaluing parts of those choices to funnel you into certain other choices that fit the class identity better?
Ashes wants to be driven by choices, if you want to make your thief that cannonically is a single target burster into an AoE monster because the class OFFERS those AoE spells (let's say in the form of traps and using a bow with explosive arrows) WHY in the name of anything that makes sense, should you not be allowed to be as successfull with it playing that way as is a mage that chose to go with all the ice aoe spells his class offers? One will rely on setups(for example), or has to get close and personal to set the traps, the other can stay save at a distance. The thief is harder to execute(for example) and yet, due to class "identity" he will never even come close to the output of the mage. sure. top kek.
Explain that to me how this example kills diversity.

I think you need to go read up on how the class system works again, calm down, and try that response again. The main archetype choice determines your primary skill set and the second one alters it to a small degree.

I do not expect rogues to be able to pump out aoe on par with mages.

grisu

Maybe read the comment again and read up on the fact that you will have a multitude of active skills from your main class to CHOOSE from to make your own set of skills to use in combat.

Which is kind of besides the point anyway. Point was dmg output does not equal class diversity like some people keep demanding. Just because someone is capable of doing the same amount of dmg in a category with a vastly different play style doesn't make it the same class identity somehow.
A beast hunter is not the same class identity as a shadow priest just because they both focus on single target dmg in pve. What an absolutely ridiculous notion to try to establish or defend.

It was a what if to illustrate the point. What you expect is non of Intrepids concern. If they choose to make bard a non musical class against everyone's expectation then that is how it is. If they offer thieves a way to be an AoE centered class then that is how it is. If they want to offer choises they will have to stray away a bit from the usual and...!! Oh wait, they did do two of those already!

Kek

bloodprophet

Diversity of class also has to include how complex the class play is. If a class is easier to play then another should it get the same end result? Most people see "balance" as equal out come which I think is a wrong way to see things. Each class should have strengths and weaknesses. I am glad Intrepid has chosen to balance around groups vs 1v1. It allows them to make the classes different in many ways.
Class balance is far more complex then most people think. It cannot be boiled down to math in a vacuum. Every variable complicates the whole thing and changes things in ways most people will never understand or care about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAIREvmYw6I

bloodprophet

grisu wrote: »

Maybe read the comment again and read up on the fact that you will have a multitude of active skills from your main class to CHOOSE from to make your own set of skills to use in combat.

Which is kind of besides the point anyway. Point was dmg output does not equal class diversity like some people keep demanding. Just because someone is capable of doing the same amount of dmg in a category with a vastly different play style doesn't make it the same class identity somehow.
A beast hunter is not the same class identity as a shadow priest just because they both focus on single target dmg in pve. What an absolutely ridiculous notion to try to establish or defend.

It was a what if to illustrate the point. What you expect is non of Intrepids concern. If they choose to make bard a non musical class against everyone's expectation then that is how it is. If they offer thieves a way to be an AoE centered class then that is how it is. If they want to offer choises they will have to stray away a bit from the usual and...!! Oh wait, they did do two of those already!

Kek

Thinking further on this while doing other stuff today.
When I played WoW I played Arcane mage. Arcane is way more complicated the Frost. Any 5 year old can do really good with Frost mage. Arcane requires way more thought and timing of your abilities. Instead of spamming 3 abilities as they come off cooldown over and over. You need to manage your mana bar and half a dozen or so abilities.

Should Frost have the same throughput as Arcane?
We are talking about the same class different builds, both have their upsides. Just one class takes more thought and player skill to perform well with and if done right I think should out perform the other.

grisu

Complicated is a matter of perspective and IN GENERAL for the purpose of the topic easy vs hard, I will say yes for two reasons.

1. There should be classes that are easier approachable without falling behind (significally) just because of subjective complexity.
(I played stutter step hunter back in BC when hunters were deemed supports and topped the dmg to everyones surprise because I dipped down into it's very different play style that most just weren't willing to do/ to lazy to research, honestly miss it listening to the sound cues of my bow. I know what high complexity looks and sounds like. I personally was never jealous of anyone class that was simpler, I just loved that play style and carried my weight)

2. It's been a while but as far as I remember arcane mages had relative low sustain dmg but when done right got those huuuuge powerspikes that over a bossfight evened it out somewhat while both speccs were considered viable at the same time.
(3. 10g switch your specc for the raid w/e)

For the purpose of pve as said above, yeah totally, same with pvp. In pvp it's a clear trade off. Trading away built in slow and snare as well as mobility of ice shard spamming for potential power spike.
So if you want to make your life more immediate and want the action, there is the arcane mage option, if you want to be more relaxed, there is the frost mage. Neither is wrong and neither should be looked down upon.

If we extend that to Ashes it's double true. If they make several paths possible and you invest weeks into using your skill points and skill progression into it, then it should be comparable to other speccs that craft their identity around the same goal and not just turn out to be a wet pile of goo.
Whether it's harder or easier to pull of is irrelevant. You want to play a thief with aoe traps and explosive bows that offer just pure dmg by carefully placing them risking your life going close enough then you should be able to compare to that fire mage that just spams meteors all day long from a safe ultra distance and not be shat on "beCauSe YoUr ClAsS IdenTitY iS AsSaSsiN and you are ruining class identity cause oyu do comparably same dmg" (this is once again assuming those trap spells are offered and are designed to just do pure dmg like the meteor)

bloodprophet

Easier or more complicated in some cases can be subjective in others that is the way the devs designed the class(see the video I linked earlier). Class balance is a large complicated issue with many many things to consider. The idea that 1+1=2 for every class leads to GW2. Not an accident I despise the product.
There are many more things to consider then just DPS output. Any item, gear or ability greatly complicates the equation. That is why they have testing. Sometimes things look good on a spread sheet the when they hit reality can come across as OP or trash.
Older article(not the one I was looking for) in reguards to Effective Health in MMO's this is also a very large portion of the equation. Vampiric builds are fun unless your fighting them. The basic ideas are covered here but is a lot the devs have to account for.

https://hypixel-skyblock.fandom.com/wiki/Effective_Health

akabear

@bloodprophet Thanks for that video, I think some of the other videos in the series touch on things that while not directly about balance outline issues within design and should also be a staple watch.

https://youtu.be/5dqOiK3pTnQ
Link stuck at a later start but best watched from the start

Hemlocked

The problem is in the assertion that raw damage output on a target dummy over a predetermined amount of time is any indicator of balance. Even changing the length of time of the damage test from 10 sec to 60 sec changes its meaning.

The best instances I've seen of balance in games have been where each class/build/character has unique extreme strengths and weakness, allowing them to shine in all sorts of different contexts - open world gameplay, 1v1 PvP, raids, dungeons, gathering, exploration, RPing, and so on for about 2 hours. One thing I've hated about WoW's balance changes over the years is homogenization, presumably because idiots would moan on the forums about how Rogues don't have self-healing but Shamans do and that's unfair, so you end up with a world where every class has a slight variation of every ability that every other class has.

Asgerr

I think that in some cases, a class identity can determine a lot of the balance.

To use the MMO I know best, FFXIV, here is an example using the caster jobs:

Red Mage

Lowest DPS of the three
Highest mobility thanks to dual cast - every second spell is instant - as well as disengages and charges
Greater raid utility thanks to dual casting rez and other party buffs

Summoner

Second highest DPS
Long and at times complex rotation
Average mobility thanks to some instant spells
Low raid utility in the form of a single buff when summoning Demi-Phoenix
Highest AOE DPS

Black Mage

Highest single target DPS of the three - and of the game
Almost zero mobility - no instant spells and needing to stay within your ley lines to buff your casting speed and damage
No raid utility at all
Average complexity stemming from knowing when to move and when not to and how to keep Enochian up to cast the most powerful spells you have

As you can see, though the balance is very skewed when it comes to numbers, the raid/party utility, every class has their niche and they bring different tools to the table.

This makes all of them viable and valuable to parties. Every raid group will then decide what synergises best with the rest of the group, but the balance is never reliant on DPS numbers alone

grisu

@bloodprophet Didn't mean to suggest that arcane mage isn't complex, just even if it's complex to some people it will be more natural and easy to others and putting a value on that is just not really anything that's useful imo. That's what I wanted to say with subjective complexity. Didn't do a good job there.

GW2 was absolute obvious blatantly inbalanced trash for the first 2 years that I played it less and less to the point I was just sitting around making money trading in the god awful auction house. Quite a few of my comments stem from my experience there. Warriors soloing dungeon bosses, Guardians literally spinning to win. Having the highest armour, highest base health, strongest self heal, and just ridiculous amounts of damage. S++ For 2 years straight. Meanwhile others can't participate in all the zerg events cause their class design is directly opposed to it. Just to give some surface level examples.
Mesmer my god, whoever thought giving a class invis + duplicates that deal dmg needs to be put in jail. AA to death while you can't figure out which clone is the right one with all the teleport and invis and whatnot. Changes? Na those are our favorite classes just buff em a bit more.
They are probably the closest modern take on "we give you so many options" while showing that they actually don't. A thief that didn't go dual dagger for the 21k crit was useless. There were short periods of times where one or another form would be viable, like d-p stealth dot, but THOSE were quickly tuned down into oblivion again and again.
Meanwhile warlocks can die to you and still kill you because of all the dots that last forever. kek.
GW2 did everything wrong you can do wrong.

Sunboy

It's really easy actually. You just have to place your finger right at the center of the box. 🤪

bloodprophet

Get where your coming from on GW2. Glad I only played for 10 days. I tried really hard to like it but failing on the grouping front killed it for me.
Let's change wording from easy/hard to simple/ complex.
Your right what I consider hard or easy might/will be different for someone else. Like you I prefer complexe classes that take effort to be good at.
I am hoping there is a difference in this regard to classes in AOC that refects itself in output. Not to the point where your one two shotting people your own level. But maybe 10-12%.

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