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Citizenship: Yay or nay

SunboySunboy Member
edited May 2021 in General Discussion
Much love 😘
http://www.strawpoll.me/45232344

21 yay, 7 nay so far.

Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Context?
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    "A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, defending it with his life, a civilian does not." - Johnny Rico

    Sign me up
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Khronus wrote: »
    "A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, defending it with his life, a civilian does not." - Johnny Rico

    Sign me up

    Well in that case

    I'm doing my part
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Other than not needing to pay tax (which won't be much of an issue as you won't be able to earn as much), I see no advantage in not being a citizen of a node.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.

    While, of course, this may not always play out, it is also instructive of how the game is built so that your relationship to your node is extremely important.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.
    While this is what Steven has said he wants for the game, it is just one of the many contradictions of Ashes.

    People are not going to have more loyalty to their node than their guild when their node can be destroyed and their guild can't.

    They also aren't going to have more loyalty to their node than their guild when they have no control over who joins their node, but 100% control over who joins their guild.

    It's one of those things where the idea behind an aspect of the game that Steven has simply isn't going to play out as described.
  • RoelathRoelath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.
    While this is what Steven has said he wants for the game, it is just one of the many contradictions of Ashes.

    People are not going to have more loyalty to their node than their guild when their node can be destroyed and their guild can't.

    They also aren't going to have more loyalty to their node than their guild when they have no control over who joins their node, but 100% control over who joins their guild.

    It's one of those things where the idea behind an aspect of the game that Steven has simply isn't going to play out as described.

    Maybe whomever is in control of a node decides who is a Citizen or not? Maybe an idea to create a level of Citizenship for players within a node. Being exiled could be a thing if you're particularly distasteful. Maybe it could lead to entire guild deciding to take the node by force if they lose an election.

    Citizenship of a node should be the primary concern for a lot of unaffiliated players and I could see guilds being more aligned as a Nation if they accrue enough power to secure multiple nodes. The faction/guild divisions found within nodes will become less of concern if they're overly solidified.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I can't answer the poll with such little information.

    Also... Something given has no value!
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • SunboySunboy Member
    edited May 2021
    Nagash wrote: »
    Context?
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I can't answer the poll with such little information.

    Also... Something given has no value!

    From the wiki:
    We want these places to be populated and people to be attracted to them and so right now we think <b>housing is enough for that.</b> But we don't want to design ourselves into a corner where we don't have any other options, so the hope is that yes citizenship will be only gained through housing; with our caveat that if that doesn't work well we'll change it.[3] – Jeffrey Bard

    And a page below:

    Citizenship grants a number of benefits.[4]

    Titles.[4]
    Reputation.[4]
    Honor.[4]
    Loyalty.[4]
    Merit.[4]

    I speculate that some are not willing to pay the tax requirement and made the poll to gauge how many.

    Sorry for being vague.
    Much love ❤️
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Citizenship seems totally worth it. So yes.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • FerniFerni Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    I think you should edit the OP and add more information about what the poll is for. Citizenship: Yay or nay feels a bit vague for me and it's a bit confusing.
    Sunboy wrote: »
    I speculate that some are not willing to pay the tax requirement and made the poll to gauge how many.

    Reading your last comment I guess the question is: Do you want to pay taxes as a citizen? Yes or no.

    If that's is the question, well I prefer not to pay taxes but I'm okay doing it since being a citizen from a node grants you some benefits and probably will be worth it.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The people who have houses beautifully furnished and apartments tastefully decorated will all care about them. Those who who have freeholds will really want to defend them. Almost all of these property owners will be citizens. How many will there be? 50 apartments are available at the lowest level, and they can increase whenever the node levels up until there are hundreds. Add to that freeholds and houses and a city sized node could have several hundred citizens representing dozens of different guilds.

    Guilds are an old concept that we are accustomed to in games and we are used to being loyal (more or less) to guilds. But citizenship is a new concept. We may find that it is as enduring a concept as guilds and that it is a standard part of MMO play from now on. So perhaps the assumption that loyalty to guild will normally be greater than loyalty to node is something that will be tested.
  • SunboySunboy Member
    tautau wrote: »
    So perhaps the assumption that loyalty to guild will normally be greater than loyalty to node is something that will be tested.
    I'm not a veteran player but I see this new angle very interesting. Especially when money is involved. Good point!
  • ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    With all the effort I'm planning on putting into my node, your damn skippy I will do everything I can to protect it! Even if that means tossing dwarfs on catapaults at the enemies :)
    "Don't Pee in the Wind"
    vuqhxsvth53f.png
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Santanico I'm curious, what type of node are you planning to adopt, and why?
  • ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tautau wrote: »
    @Santanico I'm curious, what type of node are you planning to adopt, and why?

    While not set in stone I believe a scientific node will be our goal, for teleportation along with crafter benefits.
    "Don't Pee in the Wind"
    vuqhxsvth53f.png
  • SunboySunboy Member
    @Santanico
    How will you decide tax % from citizens?
  • ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    above my paygrade, I'm just a grunt :)
    "Don't Pee in the Wind"
    vuqhxsvth53f.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sunboy wrote: »
    @Santanico
    How will you decide tax % from citizens?

    15% the tithe must be paid
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.

    While, of course, this may not always play out, it is also instructive of how the game is built so that your relationship to your node is extremely important.

    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    edited May 2021
    maouw wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.

    While, of course, this may not always play out, it is also instructive of how the game is built so that your relationship to your node is extremely important.

    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.

    What if your guild buddies didn't store their ressources in town or didn't invest in housing, but you did. And one day, they decide they should raze your node to the ground so they can level a new one for different content?

    Would you agree to take the loss for their sake? Or where would your allegiance fall once your own hard earned labor is threatened.

    There is only one way to find out and it's sure to make for interesting conflict/stories.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Asgerr wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.

    While, of course, this may not always play out, it is also instructive of how the game is built so that your relationship to your node is extremely important.

    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.

    What if your guild buddies didn't store their ressources in town or didn't invest in housing, but you did. And one day, they decide they should raze your node to the ground so they can level a new one for different content?

    Would you agree to take the loss for their sake? Or where would your allegiance fall once your own hard earned labor is threatened.

    There is only one way to find out and it's sure to make for interesting conflict/stories.

    Most people that join guilds tend to work together.

    There are some guilds out there that are more of a home for people that like to solo, but they are the exception.

    I've never been in a guild or run a guild where something like this could happen. The members of the guild both like each other enough and respect each other enough to not do this. If we - as a guild - decided that we wanted to siege a node that a guild member was in, we could compensate that guild member in full, and assist in any time involved in getting set back up in a suitable location.

    Honestly, any guild that does less is not worthy of my being a member, and any player that thinks such a guild is the right option for them is devaluing themself.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    maouw wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    Per Steven, he sees loyalty to your node by citizens as greater than loyalty to guild. He gives an example where members of a guild will defend their node against an attack by their own guild.

    While, of course, this may not always play out, it is also instructive of how the game is built so that your relationship to your node is extremely important.

    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.

    Even then it won't work.

    A metropolis node is likely to have several thousand citizens. No one is going to feel more loyalty to that group pf nameless, faceless sheep over the people in their guild that they run content with on a daily basis.

    Now, guilds that don't run content together (why do these even exist?) may find their members are more loyal to a node than to their guild, but actual guilds will not have this issue.

    The guild is the basic social organization of all MMO's, and Steven is not going to change that - I am honestly unsure why he even suggested that may be the case.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Noaani
    Yeah. I just can't see myself deciding I want to defend my node against my guild.
    My protests would begin as soon as the idea is brought up, and I'd assume my guild mates would be like, "would you consider moving nodes?"
    "where?"
    "next to me <3"
    "mmkay <3 raze away"

    ^^^ is way more likely to happen.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    maouw wrote: »
    @Noaani
    Yeah. I just can't see myself deciding I want to defend my node against my guild.
    My protests would begin as soon as the idea is brought up, and I'd assume my guild mates would be like, "would you consider moving nodes?"
    "where?"
    "next to me <3"
    "mmkay <3 raze away"

    ^^^ is way more likely to happen.

    Absolutly.

    I would *expect* guild assistance in the move - financially and in terms of effort (which ever best suited the person asked to move), but at the end of the day, it is that persons choice.

    But yeah, the notion that players in a real guild would ever consider being loyal to their node over their guild is just amusing.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    maouw wrote: »
    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.
    I don't think that's necessarily true.
    It's really not much different than playing Risk or Battleship or Chess with buddies.
    Meta-guilds may not always translate to in-game guilds or node citizenship, etc.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Oh, I never knew this.

    It won't work unless there's a way fellow citizens actively interact and build community outside of when your node gets sieged.

    Otherwise your questing/chillout/discord guild buddies will always have your loyalty.
    I don't think that's necessarily true.
    It's really not much different than playing Risk or Battleship or Chess with buddies.
    Meta-guilds may not always translate to in-game guilds or node citizenship, etc.

    Hmm.. I get your analogy, but I would compare it more to monopoly with friends.
    You're saying declaration of sieges is a casual move for lols. But if you have allegiance to your node then it means a lot more than that. Someone will flip the board if you do this.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Lordhavok69Lordhavok69 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I personally would not mind paying a tax that was reasonable for my income. As for the guild vs node thing, I would choose the one that made me feel more welcomed, even if the node is thousands of people if you're faceless bit in the cog then you're probably not contributing in anyway or just not enough which means you could easily move nodes to be with your guild. Now if you are already in the node with a strong foundation as a supplier, crafter, guard or other means then you'll probably plead with your guild about the attack and if it's going to happen even if you plead then guess what, you have some info to tell the people of your node and if the guild didn't understand your reasons for it then they probably don't think much of you anyways.
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