Dev Discussion #30 - Crafting

Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

Dev Discussion #30 - Crafting
What are some examples of crafting systems and mechanics you’ve enjoyed from other games, and why? What percentage of your time do you typically find yourself engaged in crafting activities in an MMO?

Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding environments!

Greetings again, glorious adventurers and crafters - thank you all so much for stopping by to share your detailed thoughts in this thread! After taking the time to go through your many comments for our team, check out some of the top feedback you shared with us below:

Those who dedicated most or all of their time to crafting strongly agreed that they should be able to supplant adventuring entirely with crafting
Many shared that crafting systems that required interdependency between different characters to master different paths fostered stronger player interaction
Others highlighted that crafted gear being the most desirable at all levels helps keep crafting relevant in the long run
A few provided their thoughts on why RNG or time gating in crafting systems led to more frustration than fun

Plus, we enjoyed this quote that it looks like many of you agreed with!

Lethality wrote: »

Please create a crafting system for players that love crafting - not for players that hate crafting!
...please try to elevate crafting from something players “also do” in MMOs, to something players can do “instead of” combat.

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Comments

George_Black

My fav crafting system was from L2.
In every other game crafting felt unimportant after a while, since a single character could quickly master all gathering/crafting paths. This led to 0 player interaction. In addition, endgame gear was only from raid drops and crafting went out the window.

In L2, the Artisan class would read a ton of designs to process raw material into crafting material and then create items.

The scavenger class would find raw material from dead mobs. This meant you had to kill LOTS of stuff to get your material.

I like how modern mmos have more realistic crafting and gathering paths, like cooking in a kitchen or chopping wood in the forests. However, I only focus on crafting to get the wealth or items I need to equip my fighter for the next tear of levels.
Personally I would like the option to find extra materials from PvE combat, like the Scavenger from L2, since I prefer to simulate an adventurer instead of a farmer in a video game.

Crafting and gathering are important for the economy, and should be precious. Not just minigames for ppl that want to RP a medieval chef.

More gravity less flash. Crafting a piece of gear should take a lot of time to gather all the materials. A simple click for the actual craft would do it.
Having nice visuals to produce 10000 mediocre swords and then selling them as low as possible to undercut the other 50.000 ppl on the server is pointless.

Lethality

First off, my standard plea to all MMO developers:

Please create a crafting system for players that love crafting - not for players that hate crafting!

And by that I mean, all too often we see complaints from players about “tedium” or “grind” or “inconvenience” surrounding some of the typical actions involved in crafting. Maybe it’s inventory management, or the time it takes to craft something.

I’m here to suggest those things are ok. They’re ok because those who intend to pursue crafting as a primary gameplay style do not view those tasks as tedium… those tasks *are* our gameplay. It’s what defines us as dedicated crafters, so sanding off the rough edges just so non-crafters can enjoy it more is, in my opinion, not the way to go!

Backing up a step… ideally, if a player doesn’t like to do something, they shouldn’t feel compelled to have to do it. That means the system should also not “force” Joe Combat to feel like he *has to craft*. There should be a design that fosters the idea of interdependence between players. And part of that design means it’s ok that there are things in there that make it unappealing to non-crafters.

As an example… I, as an advanced crafter, would not be able to face some of the foes that Joe Combat can, nor should he be able to craft the Axe he needs to face them. There should be opportunity cost and tradeoffs with choosing to go down such a dedicated path.

So this is me begging…

please try to elevate crafting from something players “also do” in MMOs, to something players can do “instead of” combat.

Reading this back, I realize this comes off more as a manifesto than feedback

I don’t mean to disparage any play styles or player types… it’s just been *so long* since a virtual world game had anything aside from a combat play style and progression path as s first-class citizen, I can’t help but put hope into Ashes of Creation!

Stretch

Crafting systems can be hard for MMO’s to do right. It also feels like a lot of them do it to tick a box rather than it being something that is part of character identity. If we take Armour crafting examples from most MMO’s, its more so about unlocking appearances for transmog than using it to actually making gear you need and will be useful.

The quote on the wiki by Jeffery Bard pretty much sums up what I want crafting to be:

Anything that you want to bring into existence in the world is going to be built by players: Whether that is Ships, Siege engines, Weapons, Armor, etc. – Jeffrey Bard

This is what a lot of MMO’s miss out on: Purpose.

If I’m struggling with mobs that deal a certain type of damage, I want to seek out Alchemists to see if they have a potion that may help.
If I find a nice armour piece in the world, it would be cool to seek out a blacksmith to see if he can improve it in some way.
If my guild is heading into a naval battle, making sure we have a Ship Builder on each ship in case we get damaged (not sure how that will work yet though, if everyone can repair or only some)

I could go on with the rest but that’s the general idea. Purpose. Not just a crafting profession you just pick and never use.

As for RNG in crafting systems:
I sort of like crafting systems to where if I’m crafting a green item, there is some chance for it to get automatically upgraded to a blue or higher item (maybe based on proficiency vs grade/item level you are crafting?) but after playing games that have awful RNG sinks *cough* Archeage Unchained *cough* the less RNG the better in some systems the better.

But those are just a few thoughts on what I like seeing in Crafting systems. There is more information on the wiki and from previous interviews, it already looks like its going to be a great system! I can’t wait to help test it!

Rabbit

It completely depends on how important Crafting is. If the best gear comes directly from rewards such as Boss Mobs, Dungeons, Raids, etc. then swinging a sword is infinitely more important.

Oritas

Personally, I really liked the crafting system from FF14. Not the permanent minigame but the crafting up to the engame is purely relevant. I also like it very much how the professions intertwine. A system like WoW, which craft is only relevant for the first patch and then becomes completely obsolete, is totally useless in my opinion

DJPenguin

Not sure how well it would translate but I've been itching for a crafting system similar to SWG since.. well, SWG. I loved how even a single menial thing could be so drastically different in quality from one another.

Mikasa

reserved

Karthos

Admittedly, I'm not a huge crafter, but I really enjoy crafting mechanics that have depth for those who desire that, but still have accessibility to the general player.

I've always thought Specializing is a great feature in crafting. Albion Online had an interesting concept where you could specialize in something, say Leather Armor, and then you could further specialize in Leather Chest pieces. The more you specialize, the better quality item you were able to make.

You could still make Leather Chest armor without specializing, but it won't be as fancy and be of less quality.

I don't have enough experience with it to know how this impacted the economy overall, but it did seem to create a need for a variety of crafters, which I feel is always good.

FlynnStone

The most involved I feel is when systems overlap. If I need specific crafting materials from dungeon/raid/PvP content in order to reach higher levels in my crafting discipline, it encourages me to replay content I may have already finished. Or have harder difficulties of dungeons drop higher amounts of rare materials needed for crafting of a certain level.

There's a limit to it, though. The last thing you want is having the only way to progress in crafting be locked behind excessive grind-fests, unless that's at the very highest level of crafting disciplines. You want the top-tier crafting to be difficult to do because that alone produces a scarcity of those top-tier items. Making it too easy for everyone to max out their crafting discipline means that those top-tier items aren't really that special.

Wh1teW0lf

ESO(Elder Scrolls Online) crafting system is nice, please take some ideas from them. It can be a bit confusing for new players, but the veteran players love it!

Please don't put RNG into crafting, it just discourages and upsets nearly everyone I've known. Also please make crafting useful. By that I mean don't follow WoW, where every crafted item has random stats and is replaced easily and crafting becomes completely useless because all you can create is trash. WORST. SYSTEM. EVER.

Bot

As a person who primarily enjoys PvP in MMORPGs, I'm ok with a crafting system that allows for versatility and progress. The main issues I have with crafting in games is rng breaking mechanics that discourage me from crafting entirely, 'sets' with specific stats or effects that can't be altered even if you progress the item, and the reliance on cash shop items to enhance to reduce rng of progression (which I hope Ashes has none of given the promise of no p2w).

Anytime an item can break during crafting I'd rather just avoid crafting altogether and buy the item. Which I'd prefer to do regardless, but it just makes the market frustrating as the supply will be low while demand remains the same.

A lot of MMORPGs have certain sets for items and it's frustrating when they can't be changed. I'd prefer to have some sort of item that lets you swap the item's set type or having the ability to choose a new set type when the item is upgraded. This allows you to invest in your gear without worrying about wasting time/effort/gold by trying out a certain build or if buffs/nerfs happen that make your set less efficient.

Any type of rng in crafting in general is annoying and shouldn't be in the game. Keep it straightforward with a clear end result instead of who has the best luck. These systems only exist in MMORPGs to promote buying enhancing bonus cash shop p2w items that ruin games.

MykahMaelstrom

Personally i would say the top example of crafting ive enjoyed is FF14.

FF14 had a great system of having unique minigames for different crafts which i feel greatly elevates crafting in general as it adds a level of talent and skill to the crafting systems. one big of the biggest problems with crafting in MMOs is they all tend to be something where you collect resources then hit craft and that's it. these crafting systems are less engaging and get tedious very quickly and on top of that there's not a lot to differentiate between crafts.

for example if blacksmithing if is just collect metal > press button to smelt >press button to make sword
and alchemy is just collect plants > select button to make potion

it creates a system where the craft itself doesn't matter only the end result does.
adding a skill based element that can influence the outcome makes for a much more interesting system
fail too many times in blacksmithing? you get a lower grade version of the weapon you where making.
put all the right ingredients into the pot in the right order with the right timings? (see orbus VR for this one)
you get a stronger more potent potion.

the main thing to steer away from is RNG based crafting systems. RNG is acceptable for gathering but IMO crafting should be more about working hard to make something and not just chancing into it.

the other thing that's very important is making crafting useful to and at all levels AND have long term usefulness. lets say someone spends a large amount of time becoming a master blacksmith. he makes gear for himself all his friends and all his guildies. now that everyone's geared up what's left for the blacksmith to do? by comparison a cook makes food items for buffs but then since they get eaten more will be needed so the cook always has something to do.

one way to fix this would be ESOs master writ system where you can get quests to craft high quality gear that then gets you rewards. in this game it could even feed into the node system having crafting quests where if players craft X amount of X items they can turn those in to contribute exp to a node

also side note: ESO is getting mentioned a lot. it has some cool systems in allowing crafters to use different materials to provide different stats to that same piece of equipment. this system is really cool although having to huge chunks wait real world time to research traits can get really annoying

Zemau

For example, on ESO, I’ve put a lot of work on becoming a master crafter, but it felt really awkward having to wait a month for final traits, it depended more on time other than skill or hard work, another thing I didn’t really like is that you could be a master in every profession. I would really like to see some engaging crafting system on ashes, that rewarded you for the hard work and not only time expended, and you had to choose one or two professions to master, it would add to interactions with other players. Another thing i would like to see is some good crafted endgame gear, not really BiS but a good enough alternative. Thank you for asking our feedback and hearing the community’s opinions.

-Zemau

HitPlayYT

Personally I like when the materials to craft are varied and some professions are safe for example farming and others are slightly more dangerous like perhaps mining/fishing (dependant on where fishing is enabled might be in a PvP area for more rare materials/fish).

Allows people to choose how they want to play and how safe they want to be doing it, the issue that comes with that is the balancing of it.

Crafting I like either you can have your own housing to do crafting if you purchase the right crafting bench for it or a town centre (or perhaps if it's something not that skilled you can do it anywhere, like making a bandage or a basic wooden arrow).

I do also like when you can specialise in areas of crafting, also boosts the economy as people actually rely on specialists for some things rather than everyone can make everything eventually.

In terms of how much time I spend crafting it really depends per game but usually if it's a money maker then quite a bit, very much a PvP focused player and for that I will need to craft goodies to sell so that I can keep the gear nice and fresh!

Final thoughts on crafting is something I don't like, New World Preview did this and it made no sense, took about 15/20 seconds to mine iron, but only a second to smelt a full stack and then another second to craft like 10 swords.... really weird design on that part but there we go. As long as it doesn't do that I will like it 😅

Xuri

The crafting systems that have always resonated best with me were those that were supported by the world that they are in. You can't have a successful crafting system if that big scary dragon is rewarding people with already made weapons and armor. Instead, you need to have that dragon drop a component or two in order to create the equally big scary weapons/armor.

unknown

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Oezaxs

I love the GW2 crafting system but I have one massive issue that I can only plea to not implement. Please do not restrict higher tier crafting recipes to 1 per day. That time gate is one thing I hate more than anything else in a crafting system. If I have the materials and know the recipe then I shouldn't be time gated.

Moxys

Will we have to equip gather tools such as picks or axes?

Sargarius

Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU had bar none the most rewarding, Fun and engaging crafting system in the history of MMOs. It was so beloved by the crafting community that I had a guildmate who NEVER left his house again after hitting master armorsmith because he loved it so much.

Even met a shut in Wookie who I would drop materials off to and he would happily craft away his day

Yuji

I enjoyed ESO's crafting system.

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