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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Dev Discussion #30 - Crafting
LieutenantToast
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion #30 - Crafting
What are some examples of crafting systems and mechanics you’ve enjoyed from other games, and why? What percentage of your time do you typically find yourself engaged in crafting activities in an MMO?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding environments!
Greetings again, glorious adventurers and crafters - thank you all so much for stopping by to share your detailed thoughts in this thread! After taking the time to go through your many comments for our team, check out some of the top feedback you shared with us below:
- Those who dedicated most or all of their time to crafting strongly agreed that they should be able to supplant adventuring entirely with crafting
- Many shared that crafting systems that required interdependency between different characters to master different paths fostered stronger player interaction
- Others highlighted that crafted gear being the most desirable at all levels helps keep crafting relevant in the long run
- A few provided their thoughts on why RNG or time gating in crafting systems led to more frustration than fun
Plus, we enjoyed this quote that it looks like many of you agreed with!
Please create a crafting system for players that love crafting - not for players that hate crafting!
...please try to elevate crafting from something players “also do” in MMOs, to something players can do “instead of” combat.
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Comments
In every other game crafting felt unimportant after a while, since a single character could quickly master all gathering/crafting paths. This led to 0 player interaction. In addition, endgame gear was only from raid drops and crafting went out the window.
In L2, the Artisan class would read a ton of designs to process raw material into crafting material and then create items.
The scavenger class would find raw material from dead mobs. This meant you had to kill LOTS of stuff to get your material.
I like how modern mmos have more realistic crafting and gathering paths, like cooking in a kitchen or chopping wood in the forests. However, I only focus on crafting to get the wealth or items I need to equip my fighter for the next tear of levels.
Personally I would like the option to find extra materials from PvE combat, like the Scavenger from L2, since I prefer to simulate an adventurer instead of a farmer in a video game.
Crafting and gathering are important for the economy, and should be precious. Not just minigames for ppl that want to RP a medieval chef.
More gravity less flash. Crafting a piece of gear should take a lot of time to gather all the materials. A simple click for the actual craft would do it.
Having nice visuals to produce 10000 mediocre swords and then selling them as low as possible to undercut the other 50.000 ppl on the server is pointless.
Please create a crafting system for players that love crafting - not for players that hate crafting!
And by that I mean, all too often we see complaints from players about “tedium” or “grind” or “inconvenience” surrounding some of the typical actions involved in crafting. Maybe it’s inventory management, or the time it takes to craft something.
I’m here to suggest those things are ok. They’re ok because those who intend to pursue crafting as a primary gameplay style do not view those tasks as tedium… those tasks *are* our gameplay. It’s what defines us as dedicated crafters, so sanding off the rough edges just so non-crafters can enjoy it more is, in my opinion, not the way to go!
Backing up a step… ideally, if a player doesn’t like to do something, they shouldn’t feel compelled to have to do it. That means the system should also not “force” Joe Combat to feel like he *has to craft*. There should be a design that fosters the idea of interdependence between players. And part of that design means it’s ok that there are things in there that make it unappealing to non-crafters.
As an example… I, as an advanced crafter, would not be able to face some of the foes that Joe Combat can, nor should he be able to craft the Axe he needs to face them. There should be opportunity cost and tradeoffs with choosing to go down such a dedicated path.
So this is me begging…
Reading this back, I realize this comes off more as a manifesto than feedback
The quote on the wiki by Jeffery Bard pretty much sums up what I want crafting to be: This is what a lot of MMO’s miss out on: Purpose.
If I’m struggling with mobs that deal a certain type of damage, I want to seek out Alchemists to see if they have a potion that may help.
If I find a nice armour piece in the world, it would be cool to seek out a blacksmith to see if he can improve it in some way.
If my guild is heading into a naval battle, making sure we have a Ship Builder on each ship in case we get damaged (not sure how that will work yet though, if everyone can repair or only some)
I could go on with the rest but that’s the general idea. Purpose. Not just a crafting profession you just pick and never use.
As for RNG in crafting systems:
I sort of like crafting systems to where if I’m crafting a green item, there is some chance for it to get automatically upgraded to a blue or higher item (maybe based on proficiency vs grade/item level you are crafting?) but after playing games that have awful RNG sinks *cough* Archeage Unchained *cough* the less RNG the better in some systems the better.
But those are just a few thoughts on what I like seeing in Crafting systems. There is more information on the wiki and from previous interviews, it already looks like its going to be a great system! I can’t wait to help test it!
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I've always thought Specializing is a great feature in crafting. Albion Online had an interesting concept where you could specialize in something, say Leather Armor, and then you could further specialize in Leather Chest pieces. The more you specialize, the better quality item you were able to make.
You could still make Leather Chest armor without specializing, but it won't be as fancy and be of less quality.
I don't have enough experience with it to know how this impacted the economy overall, but it did seem to create a need for a variety of crafters, which I feel is always good.
There's a limit to it, though. The last thing you want is having the only way to progress in crafting be locked behind excessive grind-fests, unless that's at the very highest level of crafting disciplines. You want the top-tier crafting to be difficult to do because that alone produces a scarcity of those top-tier items. Making it too easy for everyone to max out their crafting discipline means that those top-tier items aren't really that special.
Please don't put RNG into crafting, it just discourages and upsets nearly everyone I've known. Also please make crafting useful. By that I mean don't follow WoW, where every crafted item has random stats and is replaced easily and crafting becomes completely useless because all you can create is trash. WORST. SYSTEM. EVER.
Anytime an item can break during crafting I'd rather just avoid crafting altogether and buy the item. Which I'd prefer to do regardless, but it just makes the market frustrating as the supply will be low while demand remains the same.
A lot of MMORPGs have certain sets for items and it's frustrating when they can't be changed. I'd prefer to have some sort of item that lets you swap the item's set type or having the ability to choose a new set type when the item is upgraded. This allows you to invest in your gear without worrying about wasting time/effort/gold by trying out a certain build or if buffs/nerfs happen that make your set less efficient.
Any type of rng in crafting in general is annoying and shouldn't be in the game. Keep it straightforward with a clear end result instead of who has the best luck. These systems only exist in MMORPGs to promote buying enhancing bonus cash shop p2w items that ruin games.
FF14 had a great system of having unique minigames for different crafts which i feel greatly elevates crafting in general as it adds a level of talent and skill to the crafting systems. one big of the biggest problems with crafting in MMOs is they all tend to be something where you collect resources then hit craft and that's it. these crafting systems are less engaging and get tedious very quickly and on top of that there's not a lot to differentiate between crafts.
for example if blacksmithing if is just collect metal > press button to smelt >press button to make sword
and alchemy is just collect plants > select button to make potion
it creates a system where the craft itself doesn't matter only the end result does.
adding a skill based element that can influence the outcome makes for a much more interesting system
fail too many times in blacksmithing? you get a lower grade version of the weapon you where making.
put all the right ingredients into the pot in the right order with the right timings? (see orbus VR for this one)
you get a stronger more potent potion.
the main thing to steer away from is RNG based crafting systems. RNG is acceptable for gathering but IMO crafting should be more about working hard to make something and not just chancing into it.
the other thing that's very important is making crafting useful to and at all levels AND have long term usefulness. lets say someone spends a large amount of time becoming a master blacksmith. he makes gear for himself all his friends and all his guildies. now that everyone's geared up what's left for the blacksmith to do? by comparison a cook makes food items for buffs but then since they get eaten more will be needed so the cook always has something to do.
one way to fix this would be ESOs master writ system where you can get quests to craft high quality gear that then gets you rewards. in this game it could even feed into the node system having crafting quests where if players craft X amount of X items they can turn those in to contribute exp to a node
also side note: ESO is getting mentioned a lot. it has some cool systems in allowing crafters to use different materials to provide different stats to that same piece of equipment. this system is really cool although having to huge chunks wait real world time to research traits can get really annoying
-Zemau
Allows people to choose how they want to play and how safe they want to be doing it, the issue that comes with that is the balancing of it.
Crafting I like either you can have your own housing to do crafting if you purchase the right crafting bench for it or a town centre (or perhaps if it's something not that skilled you can do it anywhere, like making a bandage or a basic wooden arrow).
I do also like when you can specialise in areas of crafting, also boosts the economy as people actually rely on specialists for some things rather than everyone can make everything eventually.
In terms of how much time I spend crafting it really depends per game but usually if it's a money maker then quite a bit, very much a PvP focused player and for that I will need to craft goodies to sell so that I can keep the gear nice and fresh!
Final thoughts on crafting is something I don't like, New World Preview did this and it made no sense, took about 15/20 seconds to mine iron, but only a second to smelt a full stack and then another second to craft like 10 swords.... really weird design on that part but there we go. As long as it doesn't do that I will like it 😅
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Even met a shut in Wookie who I would drop materials off to and he would happily craft away his day
Once in a while, the server would spawn (for example) some truly rare ore. If you were lucky enough to be able to mine it, it felt like winning Super Bowl!
But being able to mine it was not enough - that resource also had to be put in the hands of a master crafter to be of the best possible use.
This led to crafters becoming known for being able to make items that were only possible *once in a while* when all of the stars aligned. Knowledge, resources, skills, etc!
But beyond even that - resources had properties! If a recipe called for metal, you could use any type of metal (copper, iron, alloys like steel, etc) but you might choose a particular metal for the properties it held. For example, copper might have higher conductivity.
In this way, resources were never “out leveled”… copper wasn’t the “starter ore” because it had properties you might always want in something you’re building (and iron might be a better choice for something else). Not because it’s just “better” in a vertical sense. But better for the application at hand.
So I would love to see resources in Ashes of Creation have an extra layer of depth… not just rarity, but also properties of their own and of course the flexibility for resources to be used interchangeably where it makes sense, with the choice of which to use determined by the knowledge, skill, equipment and need of the crafter!
When it comes to provisioning/ cooking, I personally like the more creative mechanics. Finding all the ingredients and making different dishes. Like to make a dish of eggs, ham and toast you have to have eggs, ham and bread ingredients. For me, I love making things from their base. so in that example, I'd ever have a chicken coop or buy eggs from merchant, have pigs or buy the meat, and make the flour then bake the bread.
I don't care too much about armor stats, I just love fashioning. Which is why I enjoy being able to have a custom outfit from armor already within the game and having the actual set for stats being hidden. I mention this because in ESO you can make quite a bit of armor, and there are motifs (designs of the armor) that you can find or buy.
I'm really big on fashion, housing and crafting. And I'm more of the "more hands on the better" camp.
I'm curious how much (if any) of a characters personal power is going to be tied to crafting. Games have handled this differently over time.
1.) Some games have made character specific power: in Wow jewel crafters could create and use special gems at point,
2.) Others haven't tied any real power to professions: DAoC had no specifics tied to a character, everyone could use the same stuff and the crafting was strictly an economic difference.
I think they both work, but I really, REALLY dig when some portion of power is tied to your characters' crafting/gathering/processing skill. It encourages each player to branch out and experience new and different aspects of the game, this tends to lead to players become more well-rounded. However, making them too powerful tends to make certain professions becoming "Mandatory" and tends to take away from those players who do just want to craft, it's also usually pretty brutal to balance.
Personally, I don't mind some minor player power tied to some cool aesthetic stuff like titles or labeled armor. I'm hoping there are some unique abilities that are useable by crafters in different parts of the game, fleshing out a crafting system and making it part of the world and not something that you do from your guild house 100% solo is highly preferable.
If we are to truly build a world, that must rest on crafters and the protection of them should come from the combatants.
Crafting should not be something that can ever be grinded out in a short period of time. to be a true artisan of ones craft, it takes time and dedication. Its a struggle to get to the reward. Some may start down this path and never finish.
I truly hope that you never cater to the lazy in creating the crafting system, but rather reward those of us who will put in the long hours and effort.
As an example of crafting systems from an older game, the early days of Dark Age of Camelot. Crafting took forever. Quality of the piece played a role. People would pay and enormous sum just to get a masterpiece item as it could be imbued with more stats and had a better 'chance' of a successful over imbue. This process required 2 different crafters at a minimum and had huge risk involved that always was reflected in price. Crafters were valued in game and it wasn't just something everyone did.
People had crafting and mercantile empires and that's how they played their game, they crafted. the best gear in the game came from them. as such they were kept busy all the time.
Now since this game seems to want to let you do both adventuring and crafting in a single character unlike MO1, I would just like the ability to choose between crafting and adventuring. How about streamlining the crafting system in a way that it's easy to take requests from trade chat in a city or when you trade someone at the crafting table?
One tried and true method of leveling crafting and making some coin was to offer your list of crafting recipes, and offer to craft items with the customer's mats for free with tips appreciated. Streamlining this and perhaps other ways of selling services would go a long way towards revolutionizing the mmo crafting scene.
As far as crafting style, I might be in the minority, but I liked eq2's crafting where you could buff your crafting to get better results via some craft specific spells, and that failures could also happen.
And for time spent, I don't think it should take all day to craft something, but maybe a longer time for more difficult or valuable items.