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Raid Design and Class Augmentation - Simple or Unique?
Khronus
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
A recent thread really got me thinking about where we will end up in terms of raid design and how simple or complex it will be depending on what Intrepid does with the augment system. I fear that what we will end up with will be too simple and not allow the creative juices to flow freely.
On one hand, you have a cookie cutter system that places tank in the tank role and healer/support in their roles with dps only ever being able to dps. This is simple, requires no brain power and forces a system for very little "real" creativity as the skill points we place will really only go to min/maxing your role.
On the other hand, you have a system that potentially allows certain classes to be primary tank, healer, or even support depending on their choices in the augment system. I'm going to waste of a lot of time just writing out about each class and their potential.
Bard - Bards are a support role that makes a party better as a whole.
I can see Bard as being a viable main healer as well. Basic talents should already include some form of healing but going cleric or summoner as a secondary could boost those heals enough for Bard to have additional freedom. Bard as a rogue or fighter secondary could increase party dps adding huge value and giving them the opportunity to say "I am a melee dps bard" or "ranged dps bard" for ranger secondary.
Cleric - Restoration. Enhancement. Debilitation. Clerics keep their team in the fight by bolstering their combat abilities and cursing their enemies. Far from simply supporting their allies through healing, a Cleric is also capable of wielding destructive force in the face of danger.
Clerics will be offering curses and buffs already so I think a cleric should be a viable dps option with some augments. This will allow other classes the option to heal since some secondary augments for cleric will lower their healing. Cleric/rogue....like how do you honestly make this combination a "main healer". It's silly and they should dps haha.
Fighter - The Fighter archetype will include maneuverability and "closing the gap" mechanics to enable the fighter to quickly traverse distances on the battlefield.
Fighter is a true dps class. The focus here should be creating different options that are unique but all strong dps options.
Mage - The mage should be able to tank! (just one role to break from the "dps only" cliché) Stay with me here. Choosing tank as a secondary for a Mage should not simply lower their dps and make them "beefy mages". What if Mages could main tank HIGH MAGIC DAMAGE raid bosses? Not better or worse than a Tank/Mage but on par with them.
Ranger - Death from afar is the ranger's raison d'etre. A master of the bow and ranged combat, the Ranger is more than happy to let others get their hands dirty. No one else has such a keen eye in natural environments.
I can see rangers doing decent as a secondary support (bard/cleric secondary's) but primarily this should be dps heavy with unique options like the fighter.
Rogue - The rogue is master of opportunity, using skill, positioning, and the environment to dish out frightening amounts of damage. In their downtime, they provide solid utility, helping their friends navigate dangers otherwise unseen.
My brain tells me that a rogue should be dps only but if a tank has the option to evasion tank, why shouldn't a rogue have that one secondary that lets them evasion tank as well? Slap some threat control on the kit and let them main tank as an evasion rogue! Why shouldn't this be added into the game? It just makes sense against a boss that hits with low damage but hits fast AF or for large groups or mobs.
Summoner - The summoner is never alone. Two hands are good, but in the summoner's opinion, four hands are always better. With the right tool for every job, there's no situation they can't handle.
The potential for the summoner class is MASSIVE. There is so much opportunity to make this class unique in AoC...it's crazy. Summoners could be "WOW druid-like" and take on all roles potentially. Tank would be the hardest to pull off and maybe not the best idea for balancing purposes. Heals and dps though....I mean hell yes this should be an option for summoners.
Tank - Protection. Command. Execution. Tanks act as a shield for themselves and their party, altering the battlefield to execute their strategy. A mastery of focus and control allow Tanks to achieve their primary goals - helping their team mitigate incoming damage, and dictating who stands in the line of fire.[1]
As a Tank sharpens their skills and learns to steel themselves against danger, they will find their strength growing in a variety of ways.[1]
Tanks will have different build options:[4]
Evasion tanks
Control tanks
Shield tanks
This is my baby. Even in Alpha 1 I already feel like the playstyle is unique and engaging. Evasion tanking, crazy CC abilities, Literally already a "gap closer" in pvp with MULTIPLE KNOCKDOWNS (nerf incoming and there are only 3 classes so far hahaha!). Even if classes have just ONE secondary that allows them to fill a role that they wouldn't normally fill, AoC would break the mold, raids would be filled easier, some players would feel special and not be forced to make an alt to experience tanking/healing/support/dps.
With this style of class augmentation, groups/raids can be filled with primary and secondary specs. 2 secondary healers could equate to a primary healer as an example. 2 off supports could be equivalent to a bard/bard but give the group a different support focus. As it stands, balancing this game with either route will be cancer for those people at Intrepid and I have nothing but respect for whoever is in charge of that haha.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you want a simple system that allows for cookie cutter raid compositions or do you want something more complex that allows for raid leaders/plyers to mix and match where possible? Please share. I am honestly curious on what the community feels. Is a simple action combat and node system enough to satisfy us long term? Do we want GO-TO options or do we want Path of Exile style mind blowing opportunities? Either way, I love you all (even you, dude who doesn't like my pink mushroom cosmetic ❤).
On one hand, you have a cookie cutter system that places tank in the tank role and healer/support in their roles with dps only ever being able to dps. This is simple, requires no brain power and forces a system for very little "real" creativity as the skill points we place will really only go to min/maxing your role.
On the other hand, you have a system that potentially allows certain classes to be primary tank, healer, or even support depending on their choices in the augment system. I'm going to waste of a lot of time just writing out about each class and their potential.
Bard - Bards are a support role that makes a party better as a whole.
I can see Bard as being a viable main healer as well. Basic talents should already include some form of healing but going cleric or summoner as a secondary could boost those heals enough for Bard to have additional freedom. Bard as a rogue or fighter secondary could increase party dps adding huge value and giving them the opportunity to say "I am a melee dps bard" or "ranged dps bard" for ranger secondary.
Cleric - Restoration. Enhancement. Debilitation. Clerics keep their team in the fight by bolstering their combat abilities and cursing their enemies. Far from simply supporting their allies through healing, a Cleric is also capable of wielding destructive force in the face of danger.
Clerics will be offering curses and buffs already so I think a cleric should be a viable dps option with some augments. This will allow other classes the option to heal since some secondary augments for cleric will lower their healing. Cleric/rogue....like how do you honestly make this combination a "main healer". It's silly and they should dps haha.
Fighter - The Fighter archetype will include maneuverability and "closing the gap" mechanics to enable the fighter to quickly traverse distances on the battlefield.
Fighter is a true dps class. The focus here should be creating different options that are unique but all strong dps options.
Mage - The mage should be able to tank! (just one role to break from the "dps only" cliché) Stay with me here. Choosing tank as a secondary for a Mage should not simply lower their dps and make them "beefy mages". What if Mages could main tank HIGH MAGIC DAMAGE raid bosses? Not better or worse than a Tank/Mage but on par with them.
Ranger - Death from afar is the ranger's raison d'etre. A master of the bow and ranged combat, the Ranger is more than happy to let others get their hands dirty. No one else has such a keen eye in natural environments.
I can see rangers doing decent as a secondary support (bard/cleric secondary's) but primarily this should be dps heavy with unique options like the fighter.
Rogue - The rogue is master of opportunity, using skill, positioning, and the environment to dish out frightening amounts of damage. In their downtime, they provide solid utility, helping their friends navigate dangers otherwise unseen.
My brain tells me that a rogue should be dps only but if a tank has the option to evasion tank, why shouldn't a rogue have that one secondary that lets them evasion tank as well? Slap some threat control on the kit and let them main tank as an evasion rogue! Why shouldn't this be added into the game? It just makes sense against a boss that hits with low damage but hits fast AF or for large groups or mobs.
Summoner - The summoner is never alone. Two hands are good, but in the summoner's opinion, four hands are always better. With the right tool for every job, there's no situation they can't handle.
The potential for the summoner class is MASSIVE. There is so much opportunity to make this class unique in AoC...it's crazy. Summoners could be "WOW druid-like" and take on all roles potentially. Tank would be the hardest to pull off and maybe not the best idea for balancing purposes. Heals and dps though....I mean hell yes this should be an option for summoners.
Tank - Protection. Command. Execution. Tanks act as a shield for themselves and their party, altering the battlefield to execute their strategy. A mastery of focus and control allow Tanks to achieve their primary goals - helping their team mitigate incoming damage, and dictating who stands in the line of fire.[1]
As a Tank sharpens their skills and learns to steel themselves against danger, they will find their strength growing in a variety of ways.[1]
Tanks will have different build options:[4]
Evasion tanks
Control tanks
Shield tanks
This is my baby. Even in Alpha 1 I already feel like the playstyle is unique and engaging. Evasion tanking, crazy CC abilities, Literally already a "gap closer" in pvp with MULTIPLE KNOCKDOWNS (nerf incoming and there are only 3 classes so far hahaha!). Even if classes have just ONE secondary that allows them to fill a role that they wouldn't normally fill, AoC would break the mold, raids would be filled easier, some players would feel special and not be forced to make an alt to experience tanking/healing/support/dps.
With this style of class augmentation, groups/raids can be filled with primary and secondary specs. 2 secondary healers could equate to a primary healer as an example. 2 off supports could be equivalent to a bard/bard but give the group a different support focus. As it stands, balancing this game with either route will be cancer for those people at Intrepid and I have nothing but respect for whoever is in charge of that haha.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you want a simple system that allows for cookie cutter raid compositions or do you want something more complex that allows for raid leaders/plyers to mix and match where possible? Please share. I am honestly curious on what the community feels. Is a simple action combat and node system enough to satisfy us long term? Do we want GO-TO options or do we want Path of Exile style mind blowing opportunities? Either way, I love you all (even you, dude who doesn't like my pink mushroom cosmetic ❤).
2
Comments
Secondary Archetypes do not replace the need for Primary Archetypes. So 2 x/Clerics won't replace the need for a Cleric/X as an example.
That's my point. This is a cookie cutter system that will be boring to organize in the long run. Not having clerics or a tank doesn't show up, raid doesn't happen.
On the flip side, AoC has the potential to create a unique system bursting with creativity. As it currently stands, there is zero creativity aside from how differently you want to heal/dps/tank. The current system also leaves very little to work with in terms of how to augment a mage/rogue for example. A mage with physical damage on the spells? A mage that does good in melee range? A mage that can stealth?...I mean they are called shadow casters after all. I just hope that we don't feel like there is a class void that cannot be filled when the final product is released.
But just based on the alpha abilities and mechanics I can see there being a wide range of raid options.
Depending on how augments work and how well a person utilizes them, I could see some cross play based on how well a person specs.
I'm not sure how far you got into the classes we could test, but I went full cleric and I could already see a potential for really invested people to change the game with it. Depending on how they adjust the aggro rates, healing gave pretty big aggro, and with some of the skills healing you+allies(with the potential to do damage to the mob) for each hit you do to the mob, I could see pure attack speed builds. Of course there's always the pure heal build, but I can see a potential for a damage build as well if there are any augments that boost healing done from the mob depending on how much damage you do.
Basically, although it might not be as effective with a random group of people, I could see the potential for some really crazy class interactions - without even including their secondary. So include that secondary and I think the creativity of each player could really make any form of "meta" a hard thing to pin down.
Although many might disagree with me (hell even I originally would've said that 2 secondary classes couldn't replace a main class) I think the role played by the classes is going to be a lot less defined once people start really messing around with the nitty gritty. So could 2 secondary healers replace a main healer? Maybe! Just depends on how far they spec into it and how good they are (also whether those specs are self heals or party heals)
Yeah, I understand your stance. I hope so too.
Do you mean we have very little info about augments?
Edit: spelling 'as' correctly, doh
If Ashes do as you suggest, it will just be another in a long line of games where class choice doesn't really matter, as all classes can fill multiple roles.
By making it so that classes each have their specific role to fill, Ashes is already breaking the mold of the last decade or so - as you really do have to go back that far to find a western MMO with hard class roles.
In reverse chronological order, major MMO releases have been...
Albion (2017) - player class is based on gear.
BDO (2014) - didn't really have a trinity system, so all classes did a little bit of everything. No fixed roles at all from my experience of the game.
Wildstar (2014) - all players can fulfil the role of DPS, and then either healer, support or tank (at least, this is the developers claim, I never played it so don't know how accurate it is).
ESO (2014) - need I say anything here?
Archeage (2013) - All characters could be literally any class within a few seconds.
GW2 (2012) - most classes were competent in multiple roles as we know them.
Or we can look over older MMO's that are still popular, or somewhat popular.
FFXIV - all characters can be what ever class they want.
WoW - all classes have multiple roles they can spec in to.
EVE - all players can train in whatever.
LotRO - most classes have at least two primary roles they can spec in to.
Rift - any class could be any role.
DDO - literally has multiclassing.
Looking at the above, I am having a hard time seeing this mold you want Ashes to break by allowing classes to have a secondary role. From my perspective, that would be literally following the crowd, not breaking the mold.
The most recent somewhat popular MMO I can think of that had somewhat fixed roles for it's classes was Tera - although it did include CC in with DPS. Going earlier than that you would probably have to look at Age of Conan and EQ2 - you honestly have to go that far back to find games with set roles for classes.
As an argument, this would have made more sense if you asked Intrepid to just follow the pack, not to try and break the mold.
I feel as if the little information we have about augments right now is going to end up being a drastically simple version of what any of us are expecting.
For example - Rogue/rogue for huge dps, rogue/cleric for less dps but with some healing mechanics added to the abilities and only self healing, rogue/tank less dps but with some survivability added to the abilities only for yourself, rogue/fighter maybe on par with rogue/rogue dps but added mechanics to "Stick" to an enemy better. Obviously just VERY vague and uneducated examples of what I am expecting we will get from an augment system (and a MASSIVE miss on Intrepids part if this is the case).
"FFXIV - all characters can be what ever class they want.
WoW - all classes have multiple roles they can spec in to.
EVE - all players can train in whatever.
LotRO - most classes have at least two primary roles they can spec in to.
Rift - any class could be any role.
DDO - literally has multiclassing."
Using this information above on what is still or somewhat popular today, I want AoC to stay relevant. I don't like the idea of a character to be able to do "everything" but I also hate the idea that a tank is only ever a tank and a rogue is only ever a dps. There can be a meeting of the minds within their team to create something that others have never done. What I really meant specifically was breaking the mold by making a rogue able to tank (I don't know if this has ever done before but it is entirely possible at this stage in development). I would love for people to at LEAST have 1 additional option aside from their expected role.
I think it would be amazing for each class to be able to fill or assist in at LEAST one role. Rogue having 8 choices to dps sounds less fun as 7 dps options and a tank or off-tank role (and yeah that's just my opinion and I understand that people play a rogue to MURDER....just trying to give options). Tank being able to "possibly" compete in dps while picking up Tank/Fighter would be amazing. (cause what else could you possibly add to TANK as a fighter other than additional CC's for pvp).
I'm going to play this game for a very long time regardless of how it is released. My dream is that a shitload of other people will as well : ).
A quick overview of the original class system in that game. You picked your archetype from fighter, priest, scout or mage. Then at level 10 you picked a path to go down from three in each archetype. At level 20, you picked your final class.
One of the scout paths was the Rogue, which could then be either a Swashbuckler or Brigand at level 20. Both rogues had the ability to tank, they had actual taunts, the second best armor in the game, and were the only scout class able to use shields. Interestingly, of 24 original classes in EQ2 the two Rogues were among only 4 classes that had anything that could be considered a secondary role (the other being the two Brawlers - who were evasion tanks that could fill in as DPS, as opposed to the Rogues who were DPS who could fill in as evasion tanks).
With the exception of one raid encounter that forced it, I never saw a Rogue tanking in that game. Even though they were actually competent at it, players just looked at the fighter archetype as being the tanks, not scouts. I
actually saw more summoners - which were a branch of mage - tank.
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To me, the idea of having one of the 8 secondary options each class has altering their role to be a second class citizen of their new role is the same thing as only giving each class 7 secondary options.
I get the desire to have an individual character able to be multiple roles, for sure - but to me, they need to be about as good as a class that has that as their primary role, or they won't be used at all.
In my experience, most players would opt to not run a dungeon rather than run one with a second class tank.
To me, either Intrepid need to stick to one role per primary class, or they need to make it so that each class has one secondary role they can fulfil, and make that known from the start.
If we use the example of a rogue still, it would mean that a rogue/tank would have to be every bit as much a tank as a character that took tank as their primary. It would mean that a rogue can't take tank to supplement their DPS with some CC, as the tank secondary option to them is not a CC option, it is a tank option.
I am not a fan of this, personally.
To me, players in Ashes that want to be able to play multiple roles should level up multiple characters. With the lack of equipment being locked to characters in any way, players gearing up multiple characters may indeed be needed for the games economy to function.
At the very least - from an economic standpoint - I can see the argument that allowing multiple roles for each primary archetype would then require items (perhaps some, perhaps all) be locked to characters.
I like this idea. I will obviously be playing this game if we are all stuck in our primary roles. However, if they decide to make every role have ONE additional role they can fulfill, I would be even more excited. Ultimately I just want there to be options that really get players engaged enough to keep them logging back in.
I've fallen in love with everything Intrepid has delivered so far (except for the Q spam....ugh) but I am worried about 64 "Classes" ending up being not as cool as we are all imagining/hoping it to be. Time will tell!