A Dev Discussion and maybe poll for "Floaty" combat vs "Motion lock" combat

Watching the monthly dev update rn and Steven talked about the early combat motion and the current, floaty vs restrictive.

I think it's an important topic and we should give focused feedback on this.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Songcaller

There are other ways to make combat feel impactful than motion locks. I prefer the Apoc Combat animations but they could make the upper motions more emphasised and less speedy. It is the speed and lacklustre hit mechanics which made the floaty appearance. Of course, abilities should be restricted on an individual basis. The key is to create fluid, mobile and impactful combat. The good news is it sounds like the Devs have the same mindset I have which is a boon.

MybroViajero

It is a time where speed of movement and beauty of skills predominate, which is why BDO has one of the best pvp skills in recent years.

We must let the developers' point of view mature, they have to find their exact point between fluidity, speed, beauty and capacity.

Yuyukoyay

I don't think mobility has anything to do with it. It makes sense to limit movement in skill chains that otherwise lead to kiting forever. At least in PvP situations. A lot of the abilities could do different things to players than they do to PvE creatures.

I don't think damage ranged classes should have an absolute range advantage in all situations. I think it makes sense to force them to pay a mobility cost to do more damage sometimes. It leaves some room open so there can be that one good kiting class with little mobility penalty.

There is always a degree between restrictive or free. It's never the right answer to do either one too much. However, there is a chance that there are classes that may have ridiculous control limitations or Absolute free control classes. It's important to leave weaknesses in classes so you can counter them when it is your time to do so.

It's why everyone hates rogues in WoW. There is little to no restriction for that class at all, and they can go invisible forever leaving them to always engage in their favor. The class should realistically have control locks to leave them open so you can actually hit them, but the game does not. WoW in general has poor control balance. The fact there is no downside to moving behind people constantly like an asshole proves that there are flaws in the system.

I don't think it would be a bad thing to at least lock everyone in place when they are doing attacks. If they aren't locked then by natural law it should do less damage. Not including class unique traits, but they should always be referenced when making classes like that as well.

maouw

For reference, Steven mentions split body animations (and then explains what that means) here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1038169979?t=01h45m25s

Now that they've tried both ways, I'm really interested to see their second-take at split body animation!
If they can find a way to coordinate it without combat feeling floaty, we're in a good place.
I think this concern applies particularly to heavy weapons.
Kinda weird if you can walk in circles while swinging a greataxe without movement penalty.

Biccus

Yea but having the lower half stuck in animation tends to end up with a clunky feeling.
Idea off the top of my head comes from Overwatch. Where some hero’s move slower when firing.
Would make sense if when your basic attacking you move at a reduced speed.
Would cause issues in keeping up with fleeing enemies though, so it’s hard to find the right solution.

maouw

Biccus wrote: »

Yea but having the lower half stuck in animation tends to end up with a clunky feeling.
Idea off the top of my head comes from Overwatch. Where some hero’s move slower when firing.
Would make sense if when your basic attacking you move at a reduced speed.
Would cause issues in keeping up with fleeing enemies though, so it’s hard to find the right solution.

Difficulty keeping up with fleeing enemies makes sense though - most games call it kiting.
maybe they can add passive skills that reduce your movement penalty while casting/firing.

Biccus

True, though the few MMOs I've played kiting has come from using abilities to slow the attacker rather than from attackers just being slowed for attacking.

Dygz

I liked the feel of APOC combat better than this month's Alpha One Preview combat.
I don't like having resistance while fighting an opponent and then pushing forward uncontrollably once the opponent is downed.

raylegh

I did not play apoc but it seemed pretty good to me. At least more fluid than what I've seen now. Idk if it's only me or what.

Anyway I have a question about mobility. Can the weapon attack be done while moving? Because if not there is no much sense in pvp. It should be possible to do it while you move around.

Songcaller

raylegh wrote: »

I did not play apoc but it seemed pretty good to me. At least more fluid than what I've seen now. Idk if it's only me or what.

Anyway I have a question about mobility. Can the weapon attack be done while moving? Because if not there is no much sense in pvp. It should be possible to do it while you move around.

The weapon skill moves you forward through the functions. It is quite a bad mechanic because if you do not press against the foe, you will move beyond the foe and have to realign. It is not the same as physically moving your toon because there is a distinct lack of control.

In my opinion, BDO combat is floaty. I understand people say BDO combat is the pinnacle of Action Combat but the mobs are trivial, the PvP is about iFrames and the classes are designed to be hyper mobile. I dislike BDO combat and I hope we do not have BDO styled combat in Ashes.

Vhaeyne

I prefer combat lean more to the floaty end of the spectrum.

If you immersion guys got your way we would be stuck in first person stumbling around like a toddler who just found out they could use a broom like a spear.

Ferni

I would prefer to have a combat system similar to Archeage but removing all the crazy stuff you can do using gliders and mounts.

I'd like to have a combat system that feels fluid, dynamic, and fun. MMORPGs where animations stuck you and don't allow you to move freely end up feeling clunky.

Caeryl

My only complaints about the floaty combat is that it has absolutely no oomph your it that indicates when you’re dealing or taking damage. No screen border flare, no emphasizing sounds on hits, animations not scaled up or down based on sever with of impact.

Every attack has the same vfx styles and a lack of sensory impact.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

If you immersion guys got your way we would be stuck in first person stumbling around like a toddler who just found out they could use a broom like a spear.

hahaha
Somehow, it feels more immersive to me to see the full body of my character, but that's because I want it to feel like a movie or TV show...and those are rarely in first person.
Also, I like to know that there is a mountain lion clawing me in the back while I'm fighting the mob in front of me.

Nova Ordem

I 100% prefer being able to move while using the basic attack combo, regarding to what steven said, I hope they go back with the "floaty" approach, the way it's now feels clunky, and I hate being locked while attacking

Inixia

hey so for those who've experienced in game combat, can I ask, what's the gcd and casting like? from the streams it seems like there's a bit of space/time between casts at some points, but maybe I'm misinterpreting it.

I'm wondering if you're going to be able to weave together spells in fun rotations or if its more LoL style where its more about spaced out uses of a smaller variety of abilities

Dygz

Hmmmn. Generally, my Cleric isn't high enough level to have true rotations.
We start with Judgment...which has a fairly quick cooldown - I think even quicker than before on Thursday.
We also have a heal surge. Just realized I'm not even sure what it's called.

After we put 10 points into those, I think that opened up...
Castigation - slower cooldown but also has a small heal over time in addition to damage.
And heal that is a HoT. I don't know the name of that one either.

I like to start with Castigation, Judgement when I can, then Q spam until Judgment is free, Judgment, then Q spam until Castigation is free...and start over.
I'll hit the heal surge if I need it, but typically I don't need it.

Combat isn't really balanced right now, so kind of hard to gauge, but, yeah...there are some slower cooldowns.
We only have a small amount of abilities right now.
Raids we are boosted to level 15. I had 9 abilities at Level 15, but I stood on the periphery while we fought the Fire Dragon and fairly leisurely chose abilities based on whether I felt like doing damage or it seemed like an AoE heal was needed.
At that point, I mostly just cycled between Divine Censure and Holy Ground.

Inixia

Thanks Dygz, appreciate the breakdown!

if you had to estimate the global cooldown what would you guess? (.5s, 1s, 1.5s?)
do you feel like you are waiting for abilities to come off cd often?

Dygz

I don't think it was quite a global cooldown with the first four.
Judgment was pretty quick...maybe 3 seconds?
Castigation might be 10 seconds?

But, I'm not a DPS person. And seconds didn't really matter in terms of killing stuff.
Prior to Thursday, I was waiting a tiny bit for a second Judgment.
Castigation, Judgment, Q Spam a bit, Judgment, Q Spam a bit. Typically the mob would be dead before a second Castigation.
So, waiting for a second Castigation, but it's really kinda overkill.

Thursday kinda seemed maybe there was no cooldown on Judgment. It seemed to be available whenever I wanted to use it.

raylegh

Neurath wrote: »

raylegh wrote: »

I did not play apoc but it seemed pretty good to me. At least more fluid than what I've seen now. Idk if it's only me or what.

Anyway I have a question about mobility. Can the weapon attack be done while moving? Because if not there is no much sense in pvp. It should be possible to do it while you move around.

The weapon skill moves you forward through the functions. It is quite a bad mechanic because if you do not press against the foe, you will move beyond the foe and have to realign. It is not the same as physically moving your toon because there is a distinct lack of control.

If so, I can't understand why they did it. Why can't it be like a normal hit without that weird mechanic?

Child Item