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What is your view on the current "basic attack" animation?
Marzzo
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am very pleased to see such amazing progress on all areas we have seen recently. But one feature has been bothering me since apocalypse, the basic attack animation. To be clear, I think this basic attack system is better than the normal auto attack system, but the animation and execution of it is in my opinion bad. In apocalypse, it was kinda okay, since it was not an MMO. But now I see that it has kept it's way into the MMO and the "general idea" of it seems to be here to stay. I believe you should rework the animation/feel of the basic attack. Or should I say, make basic attacks basic again
There are two main reasons for me thinking they look bad and these are:
1. Too acrobatic and or excessive - Like seriously, it's a basic attack. Currently, clicking autoattack multiple times with many weapons looks weird. The character starts to spin around and doing all kinds of weird excessive animations. These animations can never have weight to them or feel meaningful, because the character flies around like a ninja on crack doing them.
2. Repetitive - Look at footage when players start autoattacking with a staff or sword. The characters do the same unrealistic, paper weight combo over and over again. First they swing from the right, then from the left... and then oqwjheoqwhejoiuqw super duper mega spin of fantasy power. After this it just repeats endlessly.
Why is this a problem?
You at Intrepid probably heard a million times that combat looks clunky and weird. I know it's alpha, but your philosophy on spammy hyper acrobatic spinning while doing autoattacks is one reason for the weird combat feeling. Also, an extremly important factor while designing martial games with weapons is the feeling of the weapon. Currently, the feeling your projecting is hyper light, paper like weapons.
How can this be reworked/improved?
Make autoattacks basic again. A basic attack should be that, basic. It is a swing of the sword, a bash with a mace, a hit with a staff and a stab/slash of a dagger. Sure, variation in basic attack is important. But make them less excessive, put different weight to the attacks instead of spinns, backflips and acrobatics. Ill link an example of what i deem to be top tier animations for a weapon.
Any inspiration from other games?
Look at games that became legendary for their combat system. For example dark souls. Their basic attack animations are majestic, powerful, beautiful and meaningful, but yet, so simple. Below, Ill link the animations connected to the long sword from dark souls.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EPZ1O4erecU&ab_channel=ZombieHeadzZombieHeadz
Should there be basic attack combos at all?
Indeed they can be used, if done corrently. Tapping Q with balanced breaks between each tap should simply repeat 3-5 basic hit animations. without combo.
Hitting Q quickly could start a combo that affected your movement a little. For example, if you start hitting basic attack and the enemy dodges while your basic attacking quickly tapping Q again repetedly could start a small attack combo that moves you a little bit forward. But remember, dont make it excessive.
There are two main reasons for me thinking they look bad and these are:
1. Too acrobatic and or excessive - Like seriously, it's a basic attack. Currently, clicking autoattack multiple times with many weapons looks weird. The character starts to spin around and doing all kinds of weird excessive animations. These animations can never have weight to them or feel meaningful, because the character flies around like a ninja on crack doing them.
2. Repetitive - Look at footage when players start autoattacking with a staff or sword. The characters do the same unrealistic, paper weight combo over and over again. First they swing from the right, then from the left... and then oqwjheoqwhejoiuqw super duper mega spin of fantasy power. After this it just repeats endlessly.
Why is this a problem?
You at Intrepid probably heard a million times that combat looks clunky and weird. I know it's alpha, but your philosophy on spammy hyper acrobatic spinning while doing autoattacks is one reason for the weird combat feeling. Also, an extremly important factor while designing martial games with weapons is the feeling of the weapon. Currently, the feeling your projecting is hyper light, paper like weapons.
How can this be reworked/improved?
Make autoattacks basic again. A basic attack should be that, basic. It is a swing of the sword, a bash with a mace, a hit with a staff and a stab/slash of a dagger. Sure, variation in basic attack is important. But make them less excessive, put different weight to the attacks instead of spinns, backflips and acrobatics. Ill link an example of what i deem to be top tier animations for a weapon.
Any inspiration from other games?
Look at games that became legendary for their combat system. For example dark souls. Their basic attack animations are majestic, powerful, beautiful and meaningful, but yet, so simple. Below, Ill link the animations connected to the long sword from dark souls.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EPZ1O4erecU&ab_channel=ZombieHeadzZombieHeadz
Should there be basic attack combos at all?
Indeed they can be used, if done corrently. Tapping Q with balanced breaks between each tap should simply repeat 3-5 basic hit animations. without combo.
Hitting Q quickly could start a combo that affected your movement a little. For example, if you start hitting basic attack and the enemy dodges while your basic attacking quickly tapping Q again repetedly could start a small attack combo that moves you a little bit forward. But remember, dont make it excessive.
11
Comments
I also find their aninations too quick; funny looking instead of cool.
As to their function, we will have to wait and see.
Tera online did great basic attacks. They were very useful and I used them a lot.
I hope AoC never goes the direction of ESO when it comes to basic attacks.
*dark souls could be a good inspiration for basic attacks. They have weight, look simple yet impressive.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I'm pretty sure combos are tied to Weapon Abilities, but the Weapon Ability skill tree is currently disabled.
I think the animations, just like the graphics, should be more realistic. Dragon Age Origins does ability animations well for example.
Still should give feedback about them so that they don't think the over the top theme for animations is fine
Would rather have normal autoattacks, i mean the only differance really is that you spamclick your leftmousebutton now instead of it beeing auto.
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Actually, they plan to or already did change it to just holding the button for attacking.
I like the idea of weaving them in between more impactful and resource/CDdepended abilities.
"Way slower" evokes images of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen slow - which terrifies me.
Maybe a bit faster than WoW would be OK.
I like the speed of Valheim combat.
Things I didnt really enjoy much were
Way to many flashy animations for basic auto attacks
Attacks were way to fast and holding down a key for basic/auto attack was pretty annoying
Melee attacks moving your character forward and locking you into an animation feels horrible, and will turn alot of people off playing melee sadly, especially in pvp
I expect it to be rebalanced fairly soon.
I'm not a fan of the speed of the current basic attack animations. Especially how the first attack of some of the 1-handed weapons are doing 2 motions in the same amount of time as other attacks in the attack chain doing 1 motion. I could understand double speed strikes for the animation of an ability with a short cooldown, but not for a basic attack. I also don't like how far forward characters move with each melee attack. I don't like the forward movement in general and would rather it not be there, but can understand it staying. Taking a step forward gives momentum to attacks. Which is important for adding force when trying to hit something in real combat. So the forward movement does add some realism and "weight" to the combat, but the rate at which characters currently move forward when attacking makes it look more like they are sliding than stepping, and gameplay-wise it probably makes it difficult for a player to control their positioning when attacking. Personally, I'd like to see the forward movement reduced by at least half the current distance.
I'm totally on board with combat appearing more grounded in reality. Animations grounded in realism tend to appear more relatable, engaging, visceral, and satisfying (in my opinion), but some seem to misunderstand realism as being slow and clunky. I don't think making everything extra slow or robotic is the answer either. For example, I don't think Dark Souls is a good place to take inspiration from. Dark Souls is as over-the-top in the opposite direction of unrealistic that Ashes is currently. Where Ashes currently is too fast and isn't constraining motion to human limitations, the weight and speed of combat in Dark Souls is ridiculously slow and mechanical. Real swords were (and are) usually 2-5 pounds with even the biggest being relatively light and fast, but Dark Souls makes it look like 20 pound objects are being lugged around instead of practical weapons. I've swung real 2-handed greatswords, Dark Souls animations look closer to what it would be like to swing a barbell.
Personally, I think real combat techniques would be a great starting place for making visually satisfying animations. Nothing like mo-cap is even needed, just some Youtube videos of experts doing HEMA or something. Then mix&match, exaggerate, and modify the real techniques to make a cool looking style of fantasy combat.
Melee attacks seem fast but remind me of sparkler tails when moving or glow sticks on ropes with all the flare in the attacks and their current pace.
In some cases I can see what you mean. Overall it’s a very good baseline to start with because we have no idea what type of attack speed buffs might exist in the game. Something like a rapier or dagger should definitely be quicker than the heavier weapons. I do really like the weight of the giant two handed weapons in Dark Souls. Great sword move set feels right for how heavy they appear. My only criticism is that I think you should not be able to wield it with one hand. It’s a two handed weapon. It was kinda wonky looking when people would dual wield two great swords.
Steven said they are working to try to implement this, and I am excited to see it. Will make combat feel a lot smoother
Also I agree that attacks shouldn't lock your character, especially move you as well. And I'm not sure about the light that shows up on the sword swing. As an MMO, it is good. As an rpg it is bad.
I made a small list of problems with this implementation of melee attacks:
I really don't know what the best implementation is but I don't think it's one that includes locking your whole character and moving it without a move input. My suggestion would be to have your character be able to move freely and to just slow down the movement speed when attacking (like it is currently when using ranged weapons or some abilities). For example you could have a dagger slow you down only slightly when attacking and have a heavy weapon slow you down more during the attack.
I hope this feedback helps in any way.
Edit: added pvp
I have a suspicion, based on the animations, that we may get the W+Q, A+Q, etc. My group has described that aside from spellbook and wand, every weapon seems to have three animations. The first lunging one when you engage that looks like it could be W+Q, then a sort of 'rising' or 'overhead' one (depending on weapon) that could be S+Q, and a lateral slash 'finisher' that could be used as A+Q or D+Q.
If this is true, maybe we can expect to see it implemented. If we don't see it implemented, maybe we can suggest it 'because these animations can be used this way'.
Please let me know if anyone has used a melee weapon that does not have animations that could be used this way.