Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
What actually is a Rare item, and what makes it just that?
Grihm
Member
A concept i feel is almost to 100% ruined in games, is that of a Rare Item.
Let´s focus on a set of Swords in this example.
The Issue.
The swords were created thousands of years ago, they are spoken of in legends and tales, and they have seen civilizations rise and fall. Legends say a god walked the earth, and fell in love with a woman of untold beauty. The swords were made in her honor, and has kept the lands free from tyranny ever since. Etc etc etc....
Storyline of item = interesting lore and a good questline.
Suddenly, 8 out of 10 adventurers running around in the city has one.
Storyline of item = down the drain.
Not the solution, but A solution.
No system is ever perfect, but i feel the gear-system and that of loot can massively improve in almost all games to this day.
These same swords dealt with differently, could become what they should be from the first place. Rare.
If we say 100 Swords were created, the server holds 100 in total, no more, no less.
Questlines can house these swords, based on a % chance of being
1: In the questline in general
2: In the loot table for said questline
Then, you have a chance of getting a quest that " could " lead to an outcome where you " could " become rewarded with one. Instantly, these 100 swords become what they should be. Again, Rare.
When all 100 swords are looted, that´s it. Done deal, no more.
These Rare items ( not only the swords but all Rare and above ) could have a form of " rule " or " Consequence " to them, that would affect the user.
The Swords in this example, could let´s say be that of a God that wanted to keep the innocent safe, so a few outcomes of abusing the swords true purpose could be
* Any sort of PVP abuse of a low level character could lead to the sword dropping from the players inventory once defeated.
* Blood of the unarmed or those that do not fight back brands you a traitor aura for X amount of time for all to feel and see.
* Dishonorable actions lead to a great misfortune for the bearer ( Less items found, less gold found )
* etc etc as examples go.
Now imagine any item Rare or Legendary, and what sort of story they could come from, and what would be the outcome of owning one...or several. This could lead to an influx in RP, in achievement of gaining knowledge of these items, the sale of maps or clues to their whereabouts and more.
The amount of a Rare or Legendary item should be numbered, and limited. Otherwise, they have little to no value in the grand scheme of things. They otherwise just become a stat based item, so then they should be called that, and be demoted to less than Rare.
Last but not least, how to circulate items of these levels.
With each item class or Rarity, you have one or several of factors such as
* Total amount
* Spawn rate %
* Time limit ownership
* Proximity amount allowed without massive catastrophes or events happening
* Rules or consequences
Player A has found a helmet ( Item 1 of 5 in total ) and the helmet is blessed. As long as the bearer never enters a certain region of the lands, he or she is blessed with almost always finding a greater bounty in their adventures ( Loot has X amount of higher % chance of including up to 50% extra gold )
One day however, Player A enters the Northern woods, and the gods are furious. In retaliation, the helmet becomes cursed, and the blessing is twisted to the opposite outcome. Now suddenly ( Loot has X amount of higher % chance of including up to 50% less gold )
Player A tries to increase their riches, but with more and more encounters, money is draining from his or her pockets, and also, great fatigue and loss in status. Player A´s lands and titles are in danger, and something must be done. Player A must offer the helmet to the gods in forgiveness as a sacrifice, or be left with his or her curse until the end of days.
TLDR; Players can get a good item and benefit from it, but when said " rules " are broken, the blessing is cursed and you need to destroy or get rid of the item to get rid of the curse.
100 ( good natured ) Swords exist and all are looted. 50 are used for good - 50 are used for evil. The 50 players using them for evil will suffer consequences for it, and not until they get rid of the sword, the curse remains. The 50 swords that the cursed players ( most likely ) will get rid of, again comes back into the loot table, and on it goes.
This is just a simple system as an example, but the point remains.
Items must have a reason to be considered of such a high standard or in mystery, how you obtain them, and the consequence of abusing them. Just saying that the " One ring " of Sauron is up for grabs for anyone that collects 8 berries in the bush next to the Quest giver.... that has 0 chance of earning any respect or good feeling what so ever, and that only leads to players seeing loot as what pays a silver and what pays a gold.
Thank you for reading and have a pleasant evening.
Grihm
Let´s focus on a set of Swords in this example.
The Issue.
The swords were created thousands of years ago, they are spoken of in legends and tales, and they have seen civilizations rise and fall. Legends say a god walked the earth, and fell in love with a woman of untold beauty. The swords were made in her honor, and has kept the lands free from tyranny ever since. Etc etc etc....
Storyline of item = interesting lore and a good questline.
Suddenly, 8 out of 10 adventurers running around in the city has one.
Storyline of item = down the drain.
Not the solution, but A solution.
No system is ever perfect, but i feel the gear-system and that of loot can massively improve in almost all games to this day.
These same swords dealt with differently, could become what they should be from the first place. Rare.
If we say 100 Swords were created, the server holds 100 in total, no more, no less.
Questlines can house these swords, based on a % chance of being
1: In the questline in general
2: In the loot table for said questline
Then, you have a chance of getting a quest that " could " lead to an outcome where you " could " become rewarded with one. Instantly, these 100 swords become what they should be. Again, Rare.
When all 100 swords are looted, that´s it. Done deal, no more.
These Rare items ( not only the swords but all Rare and above ) could have a form of " rule " or " Consequence " to them, that would affect the user.
The Swords in this example, could let´s say be that of a God that wanted to keep the innocent safe, so a few outcomes of abusing the swords true purpose could be
* Any sort of PVP abuse of a low level character could lead to the sword dropping from the players inventory once defeated.
* Blood of the unarmed or those that do not fight back brands you a traitor aura for X amount of time for all to feel and see.
* Dishonorable actions lead to a great misfortune for the bearer ( Less items found, less gold found )
* etc etc as examples go.
Now imagine any item Rare or Legendary, and what sort of story they could come from, and what would be the outcome of owning one...or several. This could lead to an influx in RP, in achievement of gaining knowledge of these items, the sale of maps or clues to their whereabouts and more.
The amount of a Rare or Legendary item should be numbered, and limited. Otherwise, they have little to no value in the grand scheme of things. They otherwise just become a stat based item, so then they should be called that, and be demoted to less than Rare.
Last but not least, how to circulate items of these levels.
With each item class or Rarity, you have one or several of factors such as
* Total amount
* Spawn rate %
* Time limit ownership
* Proximity amount allowed without massive catastrophes or events happening
* Rules or consequences
Player A has found a helmet ( Item 1 of 5 in total ) and the helmet is blessed. As long as the bearer never enters a certain region of the lands, he or she is blessed with almost always finding a greater bounty in their adventures ( Loot has X amount of higher % chance of including up to 50% extra gold )
One day however, Player A enters the Northern woods, and the gods are furious. In retaliation, the helmet becomes cursed, and the blessing is twisted to the opposite outcome. Now suddenly ( Loot has X amount of higher % chance of including up to 50% less gold )
Player A tries to increase their riches, but with more and more encounters, money is draining from his or her pockets, and also, great fatigue and loss in status. Player A´s lands and titles are in danger, and something must be done. Player A must offer the helmet to the gods in forgiveness as a sacrifice, or be left with his or her curse until the end of days.
TLDR; Players can get a good item and benefit from it, but when said " rules " are broken, the blessing is cursed and you need to destroy or get rid of the item to get rid of the curse.
100 ( good natured ) Swords exist and all are looted. 50 are used for good - 50 are used for evil. The 50 players using them for evil will suffer consequences for it, and not until they get rid of the sword, the curse remains. The 50 swords that the cursed players ( most likely ) will get rid of, again comes back into the loot table, and on it goes.
This is just a simple system as an example, but the point remains.
Items must have a reason to be considered of such a high standard or in mystery, how you obtain them, and the consequence of abusing them. Just saying that the " One ring " of Sauron is up for grabs for anyone that collects 8 berries in the bush next to the Quest giver.... that has 0 chance of earning any respect or good feeling what so ever, and that only leads to players seeing loot as what pays a silver and what pays a gold.
Thank you for reading and have a pleasant evening.
Grihm
1
Comments
What is x?
I don´t follow. Can you elaborate a bit please?
Seems like "cursed" items should be Corrupted rather than Evil.
There is a Dark/Twisted path available for players...but I am not sure that is the same thing as Evil.
Ashes doesn't really have Good v Evil - I think.
What would using an item for Evil entail?
And fun to think for a bit about Corrupted gear increasing a player character's Corruption Score.
The simple solution is to assume any item made available via quest is not going to be rare.
Ashes gets around this by having a system where players craft the gear, rather than relying on specific items being rewarded from quests or dropping from encounters, and each item can have its stats customized.
This deals with rarity from a lore perspective. Rather than items having history behind them (which doesnt make much sense considering the lore of Verra), each items history starts when a crafter creates it.
Ah i see. Thank you.
Well, first, this is a general example only, so nothing specific in terms of Mathematically fitted for just AOC.
But.... in terms of amount / 1000 players, there could still be basically " more than enough " but a select few should be very limited IMO. Maby 50 / 1000 players or so? The thing to remember is that all items can have a timer, consequence or system in place so that item may not be around forever...or it makes you as that player bound a bit to that specific task.
As for what an Evil item an using it would entail.... that all depends. We want balance of course, but it could be that the " evil " sword brings a PVP boost to your group, or that it allows you to loot more from a killed player ( and at the same time make sure you do not abuse it and kill a low lvl player )
Evil in that sense is a poor choice of word, since many may want to play an " evil " character... but as said..then the " consequence " for that item could be mainly to make sure it´s not used to harass low level players, or simply make it dangerous for this Assassin to venture into holy grounds or what qualifies as a sacred place etc.
What is unacceptable would be to fully ignore it, because we have a large quantity of roleplayers as well. There are room for both sides i would hope.
You should have read the whole post.
Ashes has it's own way of dealing with that situation from a role play perspective.
Ok then. So does that mean there will be no items as rewards from quests or missions or anything then that has any sort of lore? Anything in a reward would only be items like money, food and xp? I know nothing about this so any source would be appreciated.
This is an interesting idea and has me brainstorming - I apologize in advance for pushing outside of the original parameters.
I guess, I would like for rare items like this to reflect the various races, religions, social orgs, archetypes...and Corruption.
If these rare items are legends from lore, the racial items would have to be restricted to the 4 races that were on Verra before the Apocalypse, plus, perhaps, the Tulnar: Aela, Dünzenkell, Kaivek and Pyrian.
We have racial augments, so it would be interesting to see how racial rare items might work.
The Ancients, might also have left some rare items that would gift banes as well as boons to the user(s).
Seems like each augment School for the Secondary Archetypes should have at least one rare artifact - possibly there could be a second set of artifacts cursed by the Ancients that gift banes as well as boons.
And... I still like toying with the idea of items that slightly increase Corruption score (although, I guess even a CS of 1 might make a person red, so...that might not work).
I think what you may be going for here is Blessed v Cursed rather than holy/Good v Evil??
(I kinda think drops for this are probably fine as RNG since the drop could be Blessed or Cursed and they are temporary rather than permanent?)
There will be very little of that.
Drops from mobs will mostly be raw materials. There willbe some completed items, but they will be rare and probably not as good (generally speaking) as crafted items made from the components that the same encounter drops. The other major drop from intend will be crafting recipes/blueprints
It is likely that this will be the same for quests. Crafting materials will be a major reward, as will recipes/blueprints. If the items that are rewarded via quests, it is likely that the best use for them will be to break them down for are materials.
It is unlikely that there will be quests that reward items with history behind them, as for all intents and purposes, Verra doesnt have a history.
If an item were to be a reward from a quest that has history, the question we should all ask is - why does that item still exist?
It would be the equivalent of us finding a weapon from Sumeria and it being usable.
I am on purpose very un-informed on the AoC systems, due to having being burned so many times by games in the past, but what you speak of sounds very much in my line of thinking. Blessed / Cursed would absolutely translate to what i speak of.
It´s just so depressing seeing items and weapons, armor, trinkets etc in games just go to waste. Best mental imagining example would be in WOW, and when you get a quest. A vast majority of players would just click mkay and go...and when it´s looted, you basically check the stats, and the items could just as well be a picture of a pixel chicken for all the good it does in terms of story, lore and impact in the game.
I really love the idea of having items only certain playable races can use, just as some games locks out weapons or armor from classes.
I can just imagine being my crafter, and the month´s of specific gameplay to get THAT set of items to create that amazing set to my Liege lord or Queen for the war.
That sounds very fitting and useful. Then a system as i mentioned could be used for mats or legendary tomes that tells of how items are made etc. Anything to make the high end items just a click to sell in short.
Tnx for the info
I like the idea of blessings and curses on rare items, though the impact and definitions of good and bad actions will need a bit of tightening up.
If the rarity were defined by an absolute number, then if one of them is in the inventory of a player who quits the game and deleted that inventory, would another one be created? What started as 100 swords would shrink to a smaller number in time. That might not be bad, as the player base naturally decreases.
If the rarity were defined by a % of the player base, as the player base naturally decreases, would some of the rare items be forced to go poof?
However, as suggested above, perhaps a crafted rare item rather than a dropped rare item would be the way to go. If we have a crafter at the top level of their profession, and if that crafter accumulates the best materials that are dropped, perhaps they could craft an item that has the POTENTIAL to be spectacular. We know that over~enchanting has some RNG to it. Let's assume that it is safe to enchant to +5, but if someone enchants this item to a +8 then...Surprise to everyone...we realize that it is the Sword of Gandalf with unexpected special abilities!!!! YAY!
Rarer than that is even better.
I think it's basically the same difference to have them as drops similar to Dragon Eggs as far as them being mats that have to be crafted rather than actual items.
Since the items are temporary, I think that solves the issue of players who quit or having them left in inventory.
So, yes, basically new mats would constantly be created anyways and previous items would disappear.
You bring up a good point. The player that quits.
If this happens, many games have a log in system in place for certain equally used items or bases.
Cryofall has a system of log-in to prevent your base to deteriorate. Star Wars Galaxies had a somewhat equal system, but you actually payed a Rent for your home, and if not, it was packed up to a crate.
So, a player that has a Rare item in their inventory could have a grace period of 14 days or a month, but with no logging on, that item would despawn.
No item should be able to grab and abuse by withholding it on purpose.
As for crafted items, i hav no problem with that. I want crafting to be all it can be, and as far from mixing a strawberry with a rock and you get a Tier 3 Armor set as possible. Crafting should take time...a long time.
A system to prevent items to end up in a players inventory that quits are essential if such a system was in use for sure. The temporary system can also vary, but it should be a bit of a " choir or work " even to possess one of these items, not just get it as anything else.
Then we could end up with groups that fulle live in specific areas, some that only fight during the nights, a fully loyal guard to a town etc etc... The dependencies of what you use as a spice to the overall game.
I expressed in an earlier thread how there was a moment in L2 where I obtained a weapon recipe for a weapon that was unlisted and first on the server for several months. I would chose not to divulge where I obtained with hope to get another.. from levelling 8-10 characters in that area I imagine the drop table for the item was around 1:700,000. Now I know the drops are different in AoC and the crafting emphasis, but I highly want to see true rarity and a select number of obscenely valuable items.
Any way we can have the concept of Rare be just that, the better.
I feel it´s a " modernish " system, that everyone should be able to get anything, and i really don´t like that.
We already have limits due to classes, races, weapon choices etc in gaming, and i want to see this evolve so an item is valued for what it is. Anything that has a 1 in 700 000 drop-rate get two thumbs up from me. I can´t even remember the last time i saw an item in an MMO and felt something in terms of envy or awe. Everything nowadays is basically based from guides, and little to no actual work.
With almost all gear being crafted and needing those same materials to be repaired will hopefully make rare items rare.
I agree with Tautau 1-2% tops per server I think is a good ratio. One of the things other games have gotten wrong in the last several years is making all this lore about a special super rare named ultra badass weapon that everyone has. Nothing says rare and special like seeing every one else of your class having the exact same thing.
Legendary is more rare than rare, right?
common - common drop from mobs
green - rare drop from single player activity
blue - rare drop from group activity
legendary - raid tier drops only
Puts focus on community, rather than rolling D20s on your own.
Note that it causes extreme frustration, annoyance, complaining, etc.
If a boss spawns once per week and has a 10% drop rate of item/material for item A...
The server, across literally everything, only generates 5 of these per year on average.
You can absolutely do a similar thing for treasure you just find at the end of a dungeon (just randomly spawn it into one dungeon's potential 'clear' loot chest once a month or so, but don't tell anyone, or reward an explorer by letting them find a treasure chest that spawns in some completely random location, with maybe an NPC or map that hints at it, but we already know that there are people who will make entire alts just to camp these - BDO)
The question is usually not 'should these items exist', it is 'how useful should they be'?
Make them too good or 'obviously best in Slot' (BDO) and everyone just complains that they don't have them or have to work for months to afford to buy them from whoever does get them, sometimes you can't even buy them.
Make them 'equal' and mostly only niche builds and roleplayers even care about most of them (the FF MMOs).
Make them 'cosmetic' and you have opened a can of worms the likes of which could be a World Boss in itself.
But my question is, given the outline above, do you consider this to manage itself? You might come from RPGs where 'good gear' is often quested and therefore have a concern that might not matter here. Sure, the game's longevity would eventually be the deciding factor of how many total exist, but at the 'one generated every 3 months' level, it'd hardly be overwhelming.
As mentioned in OP, this is an overall suggestion, nothing final.
However, several factors can assist in making this feeling more fluid and less systematic.
Examples:
You can add a character check to see if a player camps one location only to farm for this specific item, and lower the % chance in finding any more the longer the player stays. Or, spin it around, and raise the amount of % chances of finding clues to the items whereabouts the more a player explores in the world entirely.
I feel that if players are to complaint about them not having every single item possible in the game just because of " reasons "...than i would say, sorry, but this is how it is. If you want it, it will take time, and effort. This is not for every single item, but the most exquisite and exotic ones. I don´t see that as a bad thing.
Doing one single raid 20 times in the exact same location does not equal effort i feel.
Question over a number of levels, campaigns, storylines over the entire map, and in random locations etc etc... that is a start.
In the end, a server of 1000 players should have some items existing in only a number of 10 or less. Not every single player NEED to have everything all the time. It´s called Rare for a reason, but it´s not being used properly IMO.
All player characters are already adventurers and potential heroes. They aren't run of the mill farmboys and girls. They are a rare breed, already trained for combat and adventure. It makes sense for all of them to get rare items. Again, think of "Rare" in universal terms. The players are the spearhead, the elites, taking back Verra for all the common people still on Sanctus.
I would replace legendary in that list with a purple Epic item tier, but I am actually not sure if Epic rarity will be a thing in the game
Above Epic we have the legendaries and the unique legendaries. Those only come from the biggest legendary worldbosses, and the unique version is indeed just that, unique. Only one can ever exist.
So actual rarity will definitely exist in the game, no matter what they choose to name the different rarity tiers. On top of their rarity, keeping the items repaired will require more very rare materials, compounding that rarity.
There is no need to artificially limit items by absolute numbers (other than the uniques of course).
But...all are not. There will actually be farmers, bards, roleplayers running stores and guilds etc.
Assuming everyone is armed and ready and on the frontline.... that´s shadowing away and ignoring all that are in it for what´s beyond fighting.
That's a roleplaying choice you make after going through the portal from Sanctus. The only non-adventurers coming through those portals are some of the NPCs.
I understand the desire to want to roleplay whatever you want, but if your character is one of the 8 archetypes (and they will be of course), it's because they have had that training on Sanctus, and met the requirements to go through the portal. That choice has been made for you. What players do with that training is up to them of course.
You do you obviously, but no matter if you're looking at it from a roleplaying perspective or a game mechanic perspective, the point still stands.
Sure, but people change, retire etc.
In the end, there should not just be one way...but a middle ground. I hope we can agree on that.
It´s not like items will be hard to get, so if a few are as they should be..rare and beyond...all can pick as they please.
(I'm not particularly a fan of that, but...it is what it is.)
I´m very new to all this, but the concept stays the same.
We all want to play...and we will play as different characters. Someone will play a non combatant, as there are some in any game. Prior or present hero matters very little, because people will choose how to play themselves.
The devs are designing as if everyone who went through the portals is a hero - which is why we don't start out in peasant clothing or rags (by appearance).