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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Solving a Specific Rogue 'problem' with Smokebombs
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I was starting the Rogue Desires Compilation, reading through hundreds of comments, but one thing kept coming out. No full invisibility?
I don't know if this is confirmed, all the wiki implies for sure is that Rank 1 Stealth will have 'tells'.
I hope it's being able to see footsteps, or the Partial Visibility starting at the Rogue's Waist and phasing down so you can only fully see the bottom of their shoes, so they can use some terrain trickery.
Anyway, here's stuff as another optionset.
Rogue throws smokebomb, range is long, visibility is hindered within a radius about 2-3 T-posed Elves in diameter. Action targeted normally, the Rogue doesn't always place this directly on their target or even in a specific orientation to the target. Rogue does not necessarily come through this space, but instead is using this to manipulate the player's attention and then react to what the player does when they see the smoke cloud near them. Misdirection.
e.g. If you think the player is a straightforward thinker, put the smokebomb on the opposite side of your attack vector, make them pay attention to that, and then attack. If you think they're a jittery panicky/suspicious type, put it between you and them, and actually come up on them through it (or just off to the side a bit, so you can still see).
Another use would work with a 'Sliding Strike' ability. let's just call this 'Hamstring' (it may need to bypass the Global Cooldown for various reasons)
Hamstring lets you slide past the enemy as if no collision, to the other side, while dealing damage at the start of the ability, equal to one swing of your weapon(s). Technique is to put down a smokebomb, even right on top of you both, while in melee, instantly use this (or not use it, that's the trick) and then backstab. If your opponent turned because they think you used it, but you didn't, you succeed. If they refused to turn because they didn't think you used it, you succeed. In PvE, just make Hamstring give your opponent a 1-2s effect where they can't change their facing direction.
Finally to remove some of the guesswork in getting the benefits from these, add one close range ability 'Cutthroat', which lets the Rogue automatically get behind anyone who is hit by the ability from their side-cones and, again, prevents the target from being able to change direction for a moment.
These allow Rogues to PvX without having to actually become invisible to set up Backstabs. They just try to outplay you with misdirection until you slip up, and the skill from the Rogue side is in 'recognizing that you've slipped up and using their ability combo'.
The Rogue's other skills involve things like buffs, armor penetration, 'mercy kill' mechanics that combo with other classes' knockdowns, evasion buffs, etc, so when they use them, the other player can react, (assuming Global Cooldown on everything but Hamstring) knowing that they have a moment to reposition without it giving the Rogue any chance at advantage.
Finally, a wilder one, 'Afterimage' which is literally 'a shadow that keeps moving (or not moving) in the direction the Rogue was, at the time of ability use, while the Rogue does become 'invisible' (even with the tell) for maybe 1-1.5s. (in PvE the enemy just attacks the afterimage or 'panics' for that short period). The Rogue can use this to get better positions for the other abilities, but the opponent has a moment to react to the 'shadow disappearing and the Rogue reappearing'. Some will try to get away by dodge rolling, etc, when they see this. For double misdirection, just keep going the same way as the Afterimage so that they are looking around for the 'tell' but there is none. Combine with Smokebomb or terrain to hide the 'tell' itself.
I view this as similar to just 'getting out of a radial AoE telegraph'. You see a sign that Afterimage has happened, you have lost track of the Rogue, you assume Backstab or Cutthroat->Backstab is coming, you get out of range fast so that Afterimage wears off and you don't take that damage.
Let me know what you think. Also, help me out! I can't add this to the Rogue Compilation I may eventually make unless people agree with it mostly or help me refine it (this isn't for me since I don't plan to play Rogue this game, but my group has a rule where we won't skew the feedback by each posting separately, so help our Rogue out by discussing this one, since the other rule - where I can't add things I personally want to compilations - is transitive here...)
I don't know if this is confirmed, all the wiki implies for sure is that Rank 1 Stealth will have 'tells'.
I hope it's being able to see footsteps, or the Partial Visibility starting at the Rogue's Waist and phasing down so you can only fully see the bottom of their shoes, so they can use some terrain trickery.
Anyway, here's stuff as another optionset.
Rogue throws smokebomb, range is long, visibility is hindered within a radius about 2-3 T-posed Elves in diameter. Action targeted normally, the Rogue doesn't always place this directly on their target or even in a specific orientation to the target. Rogue does not necessarily come through this space, but instead is using this to manipulate the player's attention and then react to what the player does when they see the smoke cloud near them. Misdirection.
e.g. If you think the player is a straightforward thinker, put the smokebomb on the opposite side of your attack vector, make them pay attention to that, and then attack. If you think they're a jittery panicky/suspicious type, put it between you and them, and actually come up on them through it (or just off to the side a bit, so you can still see).
Another use would work with a 'Sliding Strike' ability. let's just call this 'Hamstring' (it may need to bypass the Global Cooldown for various reasons)
Hamstring lets you slide past the enemy as if no collision, to the other side, while dealing damage at the start of the ability, equal to one swing of your weapon(s). Technique is to put down a smokebomb, even right on top of you both, while in melee, instantly use this (or not use it, that's the trick) and then backstab. If your opponent turned because they think you used it, but you didn't, you succeed. If they refused to turn because they didn't think you used it, you succeed. In PvE, just make Hamstring give your opponent a 1-2s effect where they can't change their facing direction.
Finally to remove some of the guesswork in getting the benefits from these, add one close range ability 'Cutthroat', which lets the Rogue automatically get behind anyone who is hit by the ability from their side-cones and, again, prevents the target from being able to change direction for a moment.
These allow Rogues to PvX without having to actually become invisible to set up Backstabs. They just try to outplay you with misdirection until you slip up, and the skill from the Rogue side is in 'recognizing that you've slipped up and using their ability combo'.
The Rogue's other skills involve things like buffs, armor penetration, 'mercy kill' mechanics that combo with other classes' knockdowns, evasion buffs, etc, so when they use them, the other player can react, (assuming Global Cooldown on everything but Hamstring) knowing that they have a moment to reposition without it giving the Rogue any chance at advantage.
Finally, a wilder one, 'Afterimage' which is literally 'a shadow that keeps moving (or not moving) in the direction the Rogue was, at the time of ability use, while the Rogue does become 'invisible' (even with the tell) for maybe 1-1.5s. (in PvE the enemy just attacks the afterimage or 'panics' for that short period). The Rogue can use this to get better positions for the other abilities, but the opponent has a moment to react to the 'shadow disappearing and the Rogue reappearing'. Some will try to get away by dodge rolling, etc, when they see this. For double misdirection, just keep going the same way as the Afterimage so that they are looking around for the 'tell' but there is none. Combine with Smokebomb or terrain to hide the 'tell' itself.
I view this as similar to just 'getting out of a radial AoE telegraph'. You see a sign that Afterimage has happened, you have lost track of the Rogue, you assume Backstab or Cutthroat->Backstab is coming, you get out of range fast so that Afterimage wears off and you don't take that damage.
Let me know what you think. Also, help me out! I can't add this to the Rogue Compilation I may eventually make unless people agree with it mostly or help me refine it (this isn't for me since I don't plan to play Rogue this game, but my group has a rule where we won't skew the feedback by each posting separately, so help our Rogue out by discussing this one, since the other rule - where I can't add things I personally want to compilations - is transitive here...)
Y'all know how Jamberry Roll.
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Comments
In a third person game, the player can 'see behind them'. This is a reasonable approximation of 'hearing something behind you', but assassins have gear and training to avoid making noise, and while I don't want to bring in 'real life' examples, generally their methods lead to near-instant kills.
So the 'problem' is 'being limited in your invisibility in a game where the player's close range detection cone is actually 360 degrees', making Rogue playstyles considerably weaker if they rely on positioning.
Also, do you have a first hand statement in regards to the effectiveness of rank 1 stealth? Or just the wiki?
The Wiki seems to draw its information from this old Livestream, which may be out of date.
While doing the Rogue Compilation, I found a lot of relatively heated discussion over whether or not fully invisible Rogues are a 'good' gameplay design, and therefore expect feedback around this to be contentious either way. My hope is that the above could help solve this even if the implied stance of Intrepid stands, and full invisibility is impossible due to being seen as a poor gameplay/balance decision.
I would like opinions on the acceptability/balance of this, for non-Rogues who imagine going up against it, as well.
Something that is very obvious to me is that you have not actually taken the time to listen to what is said in the link you provided.
You should listen to it, perhaps even attempt to transcribe it, and then try and find out where Intrepids stance on this (implied or not) is.
So my 'implied' was not based on that link, but on what information I had available, i.e. lots of strong hearsay and 'whatever prompted that precise wiki data'.
If Full stealth invisibility is currently 'known' to be not an issue, the people who have 'the issue' are those who are opposed to 'being ganked by invisible Rogues'.
I don't know who the person who put that on the wiki is, relative to anything, so I don't feel I should update it.
I've also never seen any indicator that Intrepid is 'okay with full invisibility' and there is no implication of that in any Studio issued statement I can find. I can't even find the source for what is there now. So my apologies for adding to the confusion by implying that Intrepid has a specific stance that covers more than 'Stealth Rank 1', or even that, because, again, I don't know where that data on the wiki comes from, since the LiveStream and Wiki don't actually seem to be related at all?
I was relying on wiki accuracy, and that may be problematic.
All that said, you can consider this to be a discussion now targeted toward those who gave this impression, the adamant opposition to full invisibility, and those who are confident that full invisibility is not a balance issue, probably don't need to engage with it. If full invisibility is a thing, there's little concern with any of it.
The sieges are very chaotic and even the Healer is Damage/Heal so who knows how effective stealth will be in combat. If the Rogue relies on stealth for the best damage rotations, then Rogues could even be gimped in PvP due to the class synergies and the corruption system.
If you don't crit a backstab you are left completely vulnerable in a fight and might need invisibility to survive. It is true stealth can allow you to ambush people but we don't know if passive abilities allow you to detect stealthed players. We do not know enough at all to make decisions about the combat mechanics and stealth. Most of the vocal opinions are people who don't want to see Rogue Gankers like in other games. The fears are valid but we can't ask for any changes when the class hasn't even been previewed yet.
stealth with tells + inside a smokebomb = almost perfect stealth
which I think is a good solution to Neurath's issue of stealth for escape.
For your current suggestion, that sounds so much harder for a player to turn 180* (or 91*?) while being able to fight back, compared to a rogue having a button to access your rear, though I agree that it's otherwise difficult to get backstabs.
If other players also had a button to defend their rear, this would make it fair, but such a button sounds clunky (maybe it can replace Q? still don't like the sound of it.)
An alternative that fits with your other compilation:
> rogues have your Hamstring ability
> defenders can "brace" to prevent backstab damage
> rogues also have a "feint" ability that [bonus damage/stuns/debuffs] a braced enemy when used infront of them
This way:
defender braces if he thinks a backstab is coming
rogues can feint to punish a misjudged brace
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption
Sieges, caravans and guild wars do not use the flagging system.[46]
In this video we see an early version of their intent of what stealth will be like. Not full invisibility like WOW but more like The Predator.
Rank 1
This spell turns you invisible for the duration, though it will cancel upon attacking, or through the use of any other spells.[2]
Duration: 20 sec
Cooldown: 60 sec
Rank 2
This spell turns you invisible for the duration, though it will cancel upon attacking, or through the use of any other spells.[3]
Duration: 25 sec
Cooldown: 50 sec
Rank 3
This spell turns you invisible for the duration, though it will cancel upon attacking, or through the use of any other spells.[4]
Duration: 30 sec
Cooldown: 40 sec