Please balance pvp
Chicago
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
i keep hearing that intrepid have no plans on balancing classes and there will be a clear advantage in pvp due to picking 1 class over another, i feel like this is a massive mistake, most serious pvpers will spend alot of time grinding dungeons/crafting etc just to be able to duel and participate in open world pvp, not having any balance straight up removes the chance of have any dueling aspect or arenas in this game and if the only real pvp that is happening is seiges the game could get boring super fast at end game, given the fact that the game is still years away from release, intrepid have enough time to resolve this issue and i think it should be deeply looked into if this is being advertised as a pvp game? just my thoughts. what do you guys think?
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I'm pretty sure Steven also said they won't balance the classes but the archetypes. I don't think this will be a successful balance solution. It will most likely create a lot of mess in pvp
Balance normally fails because 'not every option is playing the same game', and those that are 'capable of' or 'best at' playing the 'optimal version of the game', win.
When balancing for rock-paper-scissors, and across multiple groupings, this can be caused to go away.
Using less resource types or 'time based bonuses' helps as well. Simple example:
If one class has a meter that they build up over time and then use to do really big damage, but every other class is balanced around doing slightly less damage than that class, without any meter, then either that class can dominate because it can survive long enough to get the meter and win, or it is 'useless' because it never survives long enough. That class, and the others, are 'playing a different game'. One is 'trying to survive long enough to do big damage' and the others are 'playing for consistent damage'.
Now, give all classes a powerful ability to block damage once. The 'meter build' class is even weaker, even though that ability 'doesn't feel like much' between the other classes. It feels balanced, to them. They're reducing 'big attacks that do 20% damage down to 10%'. If used correctly against the 'meter build' class, then they're 'reducing a big attack that does 50% damage down to 25%'.
The complaints would be wide and varied.
Anyways there aren't any of these in Ashes right now and no indicators based on the types of abilities they've listed, hinted so far, or had in APOC, that indicate this will happen. Except maybe self healing on non-Clerics, and that's probably fine too.
The closer you move to 'all classes being similar and evenly matched' in 1v1, the more you have to push it even closer to 'all classes are basically the same'.
This game is focused on large-group objective-based PvP; not duels.
all pokemon have weaknesses (with exceptions)
But it's balanced because you create a team of pokemon.
You can do the same in Ashes - create a mixed party to cover each other's weaknesses
Certainly will be an issue in the future though (but as others have said probably more based on group mechanics - individual balance is hard given some classes are more designed around infiltrating enemy flanks and picking off weak targets solo (rogue) or supporting other party members (bard), aoe vs stdps, etc...)
When the vast majority of your PvP is in big groups or is just you getting ambushed out in the world the minute imbalances aren't felt nearly as much as they are in something like WoW's arena
I think you'd have to have like an instanced PvP to make this possible since you're trying to balanced the characters in the world they exist. There are a variety of reasons why a class could be exceptionally good in PvP but quite bad in PvE so balancing around PvP may make them totally unviable in group content.
Good thing there's going to be as many sides as there are nodes or guilds or even more
Sheesh yeah. I'd kill to have no faction-based pvp in WoW. Especially on classic TBC with the horrible queues atm.
If i want fair fight i go on FPS, on Games like For Honor, or any Team versus Team game.
I hated Arena introduction in WoW BC, and continue to think it is a major reason the classes in wow became so poor. With no identity, all really similar to each other
Arena or 1v1 balance needs to class to have less and less specific mechanics. People loved to be able to compete themselves in the arena, and then while there is competition you want it to be fair. And it the more the class have indentities, have specific tools, unique to them, the harder it is to balance game. We all know balance is a hard thing to get. all complained at least one time about balance on their favourite pvp game, be it a mmorpg, a moba, and... hum not in FPS? Because... oh yes, in FPS like CS, like UT, like Quake, all characters are exactly the same... so there is balance.
For Ashes, they clearly said that 1v1 will be all but not balance. right. They also say they want that no class dominates all other. in other word, like a shifumi. the scissor wins against the paper, the paper wins against the rock, and the rock wins against the scissor. 1v1 will be unfair, 2v2 will have many cases unfair. 3v3 a bit better but remains mostly unfair... 10v10 then 50v50 and finally 100v100.
In a shifumi balance system, yes, the low scale PvP fights are unfair, but large scale are fair.
Ashes so chose to have fair game for large scale pvp fight, and prefer having strong class identity over fair 1v1
We all know how bad it feels when a class/spec is in the bin for a expansion or two. Also getting stomped for the same amount of time by one or 2 classes/specs for the same amount of time
Again, in 1v1 each class will have its hard counter. it is intended, and it MUST BE THIS WAY
read again what i said just before your post to understand it...
- Light, med, heavy
- Close, mid and ranged
- Open gear use between classes
- Faster lighter hits vs slower heavier hits.
- Boosts to others
- Seasonal changes: spells that work well in cold and not in heat
- Augments
With such a diverse range of classes: Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Ranger, Rogue, Summoner, Tank, and not knowing so much about each, not even sure where they would start if they did.To the OP, what area were you thinking?
This is the only reason anyone should be concerned about 1v1 balance, but the OP didn't really post about that. It wasn't ambiguous either, they specifically said that they thought the problem would be 'less PvP' and 'lack of duels'.
But OP also hasn't posted in this thread again...
So unless we wanna convert this into a discussion about 'if you should have to run away', nothing to do but wait for them to answer akabear...
What starts as a hard counter maybe can be blurred into a soft counter. Then with gear being agnostic will help as well.
That said I don't think any classes should be balanced 1v1 as was said earlier in this thread that leads to homogenization of the classes and you loose all class identity. I think all the classes should have strengths and weaknesses.
I dig the analogy.
The alternative could be a combat system that makes PvP fun even when you lose a lot.
The other thing people need understand is that balance will have a rock paper scissors style so certain classes will definitely counter others.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
And... i don't have the feeling wow vanilla is hated for his pvp part.
Most complains came with arena during BC. When people began considering PvP as competition.
You consider if you fight your hard counter, it is lost at 100%... False. just look in MOBAs, if you take a character and you are confront to the hard counter character of yours. is it loss ? If you are equally skilled, yes, you won't win your lane alone, so or you play safe, avoid to get killed, and get as much creep as possible. Or... teamplay => the jungle will help you more than other lane. and the team wins. If you are more skilled that your oponent, yes he has the hardcounter, but you can outmatch him.
This is what i expect to have. some people my build will counter, some that counters mine (and. yes also some matchup even. we speak about 8 classes, with each 8 variation. there will be also "fair" matchup)
the rock-scissor-paper balance is the only one that can fit high identity class system. i never saw a game which manage to have real class identities AND a good balance 1v1.
Also, you mainly think as PvP in a 1v1 way... But... why 1v1 ? why don't you go as a group, 4, 5, 10 people doing things ? More people = more balance a game is. We wont be in solo game like BDO, WoW or FFXIV
Each class will have strengths and weaknesses. This is why there will be counter-class. But if you play with another, or 2 other. now the team itself will have different strength and weakness that yours.
And one last thing about the "games need to be balanced" : If you really played open world PvP, you know, that open world PvP is nothing but balance. it can never be balance. Give all people the exact same character, the skill is not what define who wins... while it is true in 1v1, 2v2... it is false in 1v5, 2v7 3v9 or even in 6v8
and this is what we will see : a "group" of random size, confronting another group of random size. Also, openworld PvP is a lot about ambush, you dont call "in one minute, i will attack you". And again, the one who does the ambush gets a strong advantage for the win. but if he ambushes a guy which is his counterclass, finally, the matchup is not in his favor BUT because he can strike at the best moment (while the other is in fight with a mob for example) he can totally win... Or he can be with no bravery and just wait to find a more easy prey.
And dont speak about "we want fair fight" ... i will just laugh about it. open world PvP is some people doing it fair yes i saw it, but most people doing it totally unfair ways. I saw far more rogue attacking me from shadows while i just did some quests, fighter jumping on me while i was on fight with a mob, or archer waiting i was far enough to move of the tree and attack me... than any of them just going in front of me, waving his hand before doing fight. . .
This is also what i wait in AoC... unfair matchup, unfair team size, unfair ambushes.
I understand people who want balance in 1v1. but you clearly forget what open world PvP really is
I’m talking about overall balancing