Food System Design and Taverns (long)

So my group was talking about Food buffs in Ashes and having that bittersweet feeling of 'having an experience of a game with a really strong food design' while 'expecting it to not be as robust or good'. But realized that was silly, because we should just say everything that was good about it, and hope that Intrepid takes as much inspiration as they consider reasonably possible.

This post is under the jurisdiction of @JustVine for the most part, otherwise we will adhere to our normal rules of not all posting in the same thread and skewing any feedback data collection.

The Food system we are most familiar with is again, FFXI, and even while trying to figure out 'ok how can Ashes not basically have the exact same things tied to the same foods', we realized that FFXI's decisions about what food does, aren't necessarily arbitrary.

Let's start from Taverns.

A Tavern is a place where players go to buy and eat a meal and get a buff or set of buffs.

Q: How can we make it so that players want to go to Taverns instead of just carrying their own food everywhere?

A: Make it possible for a Cook to make a 'Group meal' that feeds all 8 members of the same party, for only 5x the Ingredients, or maybe 5 members for 3x Ingredients. If the party is less than the number it can feed, players lot on/distribute the leftovers, which are Single Serving versions of the same food. So a party of 5 ordering for 8 gets 3 Single Servings after.
A2: Make it possible to stack up effects that can't otherwise easily be stacked, maybe, i.e. you can get up to 6-8 buffs when you can normally only get 1 or 2.

Q: How can we make it so that players don't all have to get the same buffs?

A: The Meal UI for the Tavern has some number of slots open, and the group decides beforehand how many of these (half of them at minimum probably) should be 'open'. Each player orders what they need for their class within the 'open' slots, and otherwise they share whatever the leader or whoever was in charge of ordering food, got. These don't count as Group Meals and therefore don't generate Leftovers.

Q: How can we stop RPers and non-RPers from arguing over how long to spend in the Tavern?
A: Add some satisfaction or similar that builds up if you stay the whole minute or two (no downside to staying longer). Other than that, solved by the above. The party leader or designated person can arrive early and order the Group Meals and the others trickle in later. You could literally 'wait for people at the tavern'. Also, even the short period spent ordering your own Personal stuff might help smooth out some of this. You have to spend time getting the food anyway, might as well.

Q: How can we make this preferable in any way to Cooking without making Cooking irrelevant or Tavern Only?
A: Cook's level and tools. The Tavern pre-provides a lot of things, time, ingredients, etc. A high enough level cook with all their tools could create Group Meals and similar out in the field, but lesser cooks, or even just those who aren't carrying their stuff around, might benefit from this, even for reasons not above. So you have a good reason to go to the Tavern or even hang around there, but a high level Cook (assuming they can cook in the field at all or at their Freehold) has options.

Next is Food Buff Balance

Food Buffs need to feel obvious without being vital for everything.

Q: How can we make players want to eat often and keep the food economy going without making them feel stupid for not eating?
A: Primary basic foods should focus on things like Movement Speed (this one probably just a small buff for eating at all), Health, Mana, and the Regeneration of those stats, and food should not wear off because you die. This way a player is incentivized to eat whenever they reasonably can, but can go without it and the 'penalty' is semi-realistic and yet not 'complete suffering'. These are also good effects to go into Group Meals as described above, since no one will be likely to want to pass them up.

Q: How can we make food impactful without making it a balance nightmare for buff stacking?
A: Lots of foods can focus on resistances to statuses or elemental damage in addition to their small(er) buffs to main stats. This solves 'regional variation', stops players from feeling the need to always eat the exact same thing to min-max, and lets cooks have more niches they can specialize in for markets and selling.

Q: How can we make food intuitive enough to understand without having to be a cook or read a guide?
A: Aside from simply 'putting the effect in the tooltip', this is where the FFXI-style system comes in (other games have this too, this is just the familiar one for the discussion). Types of food have specific effects. The Tavern helps more because you can combine them more easily. You can even go further and make certain meals innately 'pair up right' for most people, while not forcing players to adhere to this. Example below, followed by a whole Appendix (yes seriously) of effects.

Example of all this in action
The Party Leader, an Empyrean Nightshield, arrives at the tavern first, orders Group servings of Bread, Soup, Roast Pig, and Pumpkin Pie, and leaves the other 4 slots open.
The Nikua Archmage arrives, sees what is there, orders an additional Cheese Plate, Stuffed Mushrooms, and Ale for themselves to get Mage buffs. They sit around and roleplay a bit as two other party members trickle in and order, each (including the Leader), ordering their personal stuff.
Finally the Ren'Kai Dreadnought arrives, orders an additional strong drink, a Roast Duck, Fried Red Snapper, and a Walnut Salad, 'shovels it all in' and the Party leaves, after distributing amongst themselves 3x of Bread, Soup Flask, Porkchop, Slice of Pumpkin Pie. Food buffs last 90m.
The Archmage got HP up, MP up, Attack Speed Up, MP Regen Up, HP Regen Up, Mentality Up, Knockback Resistance Down, Earth Resistance Up, and various other Resistances
The Dreadnought got HP up, MP up, Attack Speed Up, MP Regen Up, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Up, Damage Mitigation Up, Bleed Resistance Down, Fire Resistance, and various other Resistances

Why do people associate X food with Y buff?

Honestly, we don't know, maybe it's just us, maybe we're biased precisely because of FFXI and BDO and Fairyland. Either way, here's the 'Appendix of expected effects', tuned to increase the opportunity for 'cultural identity in food' and 'easy recognition of most likely effect of new ingredients'.

Breads and Starches - HP Up (potatoes and grain porridges etc might give mitigation), Knockback Resist Up
Basic Vegetable/Mushroom Soups (not stews) - MP Up, Blind Resist Up
Meats and Meat Stews - Attack Speed Up or Attack Bonus, Paralysis Resist Up
Sweet Pastries - MP Regen Up, Slow Resist Up
Savoury Pastries/Cheeses - HP Regen Up, Stun Resist Up
Fish Dishes - Accuracy Up, Bleed Resist Up
Other Seafood - Dexterity Stat up
Mushrooms - Mentality Stat up, Knockdown Resist Up
Fruits - Wisdom Stat up
Rare Meats - Power Stat up
Eggs/Other Dairy - Resistances, varies (e.g. Stun Resist Up), Constitution Stat Up or Mitigation Stat up

Mix and match as desired for complex meals like 'Mushroom Cheese Melt on Rye Bread' or what have you. The Resistances are small bonuses like 5%, there to stack with others while having some effect, but not making the player feel like they have to have it. Maybe they only activate in Complex meals.

Alcohols:
Intended to be where resistances are generally stored, to prevent those who RP or otherwise don't want to consume alcohol in game to from needing to do so. They can drink milk. Always funny (I say this as a milk-drinker). They have downsides as well, universal enough to affect most players so they can't min-max their way out of it entirely (note that any 'pairs with' stuff is 'flavor' or just resultant from natural player-goals interacting, and is specifically not supposed to be rigid or strong enough to prevent people from doing whatever they want)

Ale - Dunir related, gives Fire Resistance up, Knockback Resist Down, MP Regen Down, pairs with Carbs and Meat, tends to negate Dairy
Botanicals (Mushroom Wine, etc) - Py'Rai related, gives Earth Resistance Up, Knockdown Resist down, Basic Attack Speed Down, pairs with Mushrooms and Veggies, tends to offer less for Meat eaters
Dark Lager - Vek related, gives Darkness/Planar/Gravity Resistance up, Paralysis Resist Down, Ability Cooldown (negative effect) 'pairs with' Meat and veggies but not so much with Seafood
Scotch (or equivalent) - Kaelar related, gives Lightning Resistance up, Blind Resist Down, mild Magic Defense down, pairs with Veggies and Fruit, not so much Breads/Starches
Pure Distills (the strong stuff) - Ren'Kai related, gives Wind Resistance Up, Bleed Resist Down, mild Accuracy down, pairs with Seafood and Starches, not as much Veggies
Rum/Schnapps - Nikua Related, gives Water Resistance up, Burn/Slow Resistance Down, Mild Healing Received Down, pairs with Fruit and Seafood, not so much Mushrooms
Wines - Empyrean Related, gives Light Resistance up, Stun Resist Down, mild HP Regen Down, pairs with Dairy and Mushrooms, but not really Fruit
Vaelune have nothing assigned at this time, our alcohols expert 'didn't have an eighth that would specifically suit them' due to certain cultural analogues IRL not really 'providing as much'. Which was fine since you probably shouldn't ever get Ice Resistance from drinking and that was the last one left.

For the RPers who have made it this far
We'll always argue against people having to drink what their race drinks or eat what they normally eat. Stand with us! Fight for people's right to get inebriated as they see fit!

More seriously, that's why the 'this pairs with this' is so loose. You might be slightly less than optimal minmax if you, the Py'Rai Archer who has enough Accuracy to not need to eat fish, and will never be in range of a serious Knockback Ability, then choose to drink some Ren'Kai liquor, but no one wants to make it so that you can't do this randomly or have a build where this is actually a good thing.

RPers should let us know if they care about anything in here not being the way it is. Non-RPers should let us know if anything about this would be annoying or frustrating to them if implemented. Assume JustVine will address any of that, if I post more it will be for 'the usual reasons'.

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Comments

tautau

I think that people will be able to learn to cultivate higher quality fruits and vegetables on their freeholdings. These higher quality ingredients will result in more powerful buffs from meals. Especially because...

Those learning the cooking professions will discover recipes for new foods which will provide better buffs than basic foods. When you combine these better meat pies with the better ingredients then you end up with some really worthwhile buffs. People will know that buffing at Dulcinea's Tavern gives the best buffs on the server!

I think that buffs from tavern foods will be good within a restricted area of the tavern.

Taverns will have other attractions like map boards where bounty hunters can track reds and map rooms for planning sieges and caravans, I think.

Marcet

I agree with your points and I hope we have a good and complete food & tavern system.

I would love it if for high level cooking you need Alchemy products a part from farmer plants and animals, this would make interdependencies between crafters of different professions and even partnerships.

Another idea is for cooks (at very high level of profession) to have a campfire to make better food on the road, you could buff your party better than with basic food, but not as good as a tavern.

JustVine

Marcet wrote: »

I agree with your points and I hope we have a good and complete food & tavern system.

I would love it if for high level cooking you need Alchemy products a part from farmer plants and animals, this would make interdependencies between crafters of different professions and even partnerships.

Another idea is for cooks (at very high level of profession) to have a campfire to make better food on the road, you could buff your party better than with basic food, but not as good as a tavern.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah our concept of what 'the meaning of Artisan level chef' was: 'a bad ass pro who could make a meal fit for a king if given the ingredients and carrying the right tools. Any time any place.' Where as lower than that still need a kitchen probably. Hence why the 'How can we make people want to use a tavern instead of just carrying their own food all the time' came up as a long game consideration.

McShave

I question the idea of wanting to make people stay in a tavern. I am a non-rp player, and spending more than a minimum amount of time to get buffs, quests, etc, to be quite frustrating. If I am not making permenant improvements to my character, then I am very impatient.

I like the idea of tavern foods giving better buffs than an individual's food. I think Taverns should provide optional quests that are chosen by the Tavern owner for specific ingredients that they need.

Where and how should a cook train new recipes? I think they should be able to learn different recipes from different geographical environments. They can be purchased from a recipe vendor that specializes in local quizines, and then you can sell them in distant lands for profit.

JustVine

McShave wrote: »

I question the idea of wanting to make people stay in a tavern. I am a non-rp player, and spending more than a minimum amount of time to get buffs, quests, etc, to be quite frustrating. If I am not making permenant improvements to my character, then I am very impatient.

I like the idea of tavern foods giving better buffs than an individual's food. I think Taverns should provide optional quests that are chosen by the Tavern owner for specific ingredients that they need.

Where and how should a cook train new recipes? I think they should be able to learn different recipes from different geographical environments. They can be purchased from a recipe vendor that specializes in local quizines, and then you can sell them in distant lands for profit.

I get what your sayin. In this case you'd be the renkai dreadnaught in our example. You only need to stay longer if you want the additional bonus. Intrepid will probably design the 'satisfaction bonus' with this in mind.

Dygz

Group deciding on meals in an MMORPG just opens the door for toxicity. I don't want a group dictating what I eat. Since when do groups decide on what individuals eat at a Tavern? That does not at all sound like fun.
That sounds like FOMO bullying. Also, feels like borderline "forced grouping". I don't want to feel any pressure or incentive whatsoever to be in a group in a Tavern.

But, I don't even understand the question: Why would players feel like they need to get the same buffs??
Individual players should get whatever food they like best (and can afford) - just as they would at any Tavern.
That might not be based on class. Could be based on Artisan buffs or race or social org or religion or region. Or other stuff.

If you have RPers and Non-RPers in the same group and you go to a place designed for RP, expect there to be arguments over how long to stay. Groups with opposing playstyles are going to have arguments, so it's best to have groups with similar playstyles. Taverns should not be about groups, though.
Taverns should be a place to relax without needing to conform with a group.
Taverns should not be reduced to just a place for a group to get combat buffs or even mostly a place for people to go to get combat buffs. Getting combat buffs should be one of the things individuals can do at a Tavern, rather than being the primary incentive for visiting a Tavern.

I think there's a fundamental problem with the concept of Tavern presented in the OP.
The concept, as presented, appears to be a place groups should go to prepare for battle, rather than a place individuals should to go relax and have fun when not in combat. A Group Meal should not be necessary.
Tavern food buffs should not be inherently preferable to Cooking food buffs. Most likely Cooks will be the main people running Taverns and you visit a particular Tavern because you like the food recipes that Cook has.
I don't think Taverns pre-provide anything. People can decide to turn their Freeholds into Taverns and then choose how to progress the Tavern. Which will also determine what's available on the menu.
Some of that will likely also be determined by race and social org and religion and region and Node.

Most of the concepts in the OP are revolting to me.
In an RPG, there should never be a concept of "making people want to eat". Eating should always be optional.
If a person doesn't want to eat, they shouldn't feel stupid for not wanting to eat. Just like any other aspect of the game. If a player doesn't want to Gather, they should not feel stupid for not wanting to Gather. If a person doesn't want to attack Caravans, they should not feel stupid for not wanting to attack Caravans.
If a person doesn't want to visit a Tavern, they should not have to visit a Tavern.
Visiting a Tavern should not be about trying to make people eat food as often as possible. But, the best way to make the food economy successful is to not have food buffs focus on combat stats. There should be food buffs that help with Artisan endeavors as well as racial, religious and social org endeavors. There could possibly be food buffs that help train pets.

I expect, in Ashes, people will search Tavern menus for the stuff they wish eat similar to how they would in real life.
It's going to depend on how they feel in the moment and what they will be doing when they leave the Tavern.
It may be that some people will always order the same meal - especially at their favorite Tavern.
Some people will occasionally be interested in trying something new - either something previously available that they chose not to try before or something that wasn't available before. Taverns run by different people, different races, different Nodes and different regions will likely have different items on the menu, so it's likely people will not be always eating the exact same foods as they travel around the world.
And some people will love trying new, exotic stuff they ever had before - especially if some group is not pressuring them to conform.

I agree that recipes are always best when categories are designed to be intuitive.
Alchemy in KOA: Reckoning comes to mind - specific resources result in specific categories of potions.
One type of flower is a reagent for Ice while another type of flower is a reagent for fire. Combine either with the specific reagent for resistance or a different reagent for damage.
Cooking/Food categories will hopefully be similar in Ashes.

With regard to McShave... it could be that there are Taverns that provide quests you will like. Resource quests are likely to be about resources in general rather than just limited to food ingredients. So... McShave might visit a Tavern to pick up or turn in quests while other people are visiting to eat and drink.
Eating and drinking won't be the only things to do at a Tavern.

Azherae

It sounds like you've had a lot of toxic experiences with group members in MMOs, and I sympathize.

So, going in order as to how the hope of addressing that is...

1. The idea is that a Tavern provides more buffs in total than the player can get by themselves anyway. The Group Meals part is almost certainly a pure bonus (e.g. you could normally eat 2-3 foods, there are 3-4 slots under your control, the rest is bonus)
2. The idea of a Tavern is to have the group experience in the first place, so if you don't trust a group or expect a toxic situation, it's possible to split the party to two 'tables', to eat by yourself, etc. They may complain, but you're expecting toxicity and conflict anyway.
3. If you are just 'looking for a group because you need something fast' you could hang out in the Tavern yourself beforehand, and just claim that you already ate, which is a reasonable way to deal with toxic people who 'force feed you their standards', quite literally.

It's hard to protect people in a social game from 'bad actors' without limiting the social aspects, so I hope you can see fit to discuss this in the framing from the three points above, and how to tweak that, rather than 'this whole thing is a negative experience generator'.

Dygz

I don't agree that the idea of tavern is to have a Group experience. The idea of a Tavern is to have a multiplayer experience. That's not the same thing.

It's not about "trust". What is suggested in the OP is that there should be incentives to conform with a Group when it comes to meals. Where a Party Leader decides on the meal... which rarely happens at a Tavern in real life.
Again, a Tavern should be a place where individuals go to relax outside of combat (might very well be with a group rather than in a Party); not a place a Group goes as a key part of combat prep.
And not a place were people feel stupid if they don't eat or drink (before combat).
No individual should feel like they have to eat and drink at a Tavern before going into combat.

Tavern should probably not be the primary place to go to LFG for combat. Taverns are typically where people go after combat or when not interested in combat rather than a place to eat and drink before combat.
Tavern is not the only type of Freehold. We will know which homes and Freeholds to convene at to LFG in and near our Nodes. Whenever Steve is asked about RP, Steven mentions Taverns, so... At a Tavern, I, personally, would not expect to be able to entice people away from RP for combat. Just as, during a Siege, I wouldn't expect to be able to entice people away from combat to /dance with me.
If I wanted to LFG in-game rather than via Discord, I would go to people's homes in my town who are online when I am and with whom I've grouped with before.
Seems like a guild hall is where Groups should go to prep for combat. But, there could also be non-Tavern Freeholds that help with Group combat buffs.

It's especially hard to protect people from bad actors when you implement systems and features that promote forced grouping behaviors/toxic group conformity... especially in an RPG. Also, we should have spaces that aren't heavily focused on combat. Taverns are designed primarily to promote RP; not combat.

Azherae

That's my bad. I come from a background of games where not eating is suboptimal.

There's an expectation that players who want to perform at their best will get food in order to get buffs.

Steven has specifically said at some point that one of the ideas for Taverns is that it does give food buffs, so we were working from there. It seems that you are in opposition to the very concept he mentioned, and to the idea of food buffs in general, but that's the framing of this discussion.

So while your feedback as a strong detractor to 'Food buffs being a thing' is absolutely accepted, the conversation is moreso geared toward people who want and expect this, and who hope that Intrepid will follow through on that concept.

(this isn't to imply that others who disagree with Food Buffs being a thing shouldn't make that known, please do so)

Dygz

I think it depends on what is meant by "sub-optimal".
I agree. I also want food buffs to be "meaningful".
I think, in Ashes, we can expect there to be food buffs that will be beneficial for combat.
I think there will be individuals who choose to get Tavern food buffs before combat. And I expect that there will be some Groups that have individuals with similar playstyles who choose to go to Taverns as part of combat prep. That should be a thing they can do, if they want to.
I just don't agree that Taverns should be designed with that as a focus. Food should not be designed in a manner where the Group is deciding what individuals should eat. Especially not to min/max Group combat.

Food buffs aren't only about combat. And the OP is focused almost exclusively on combat buffs.
One of the ideas for Taverns is food buffs. That is one thing to do at Taverns, but combat food buffs should not be the primary thing. Especially not Group food buffs.

I haven't said anything like "Food buffs should not be a thing." I am a staunch supporter of food buffs being a thing... even food buffs that can help with combat. But, as I mentioned previously: "There should be food buffs that help with Artisan endeavors as well as racial, religious and social org endeavors. There could possibly be food buffs that help train pets."
I find most of the suggestions for how to implement food buffs in the OP to be revolting. Primarily because the fundamental concept of Taverns that's being presented is horribly flawed due to its focus on Group combat prep.

Azherae

We used those because there is no current indication of other things available, buff wise, that we could see or think of relative to Ashes.

We'd absolutely welcome any concepts for buffs that go beyond 'raising character stats'. Many games do have these, they're just usually more exotic because much of an MMO is combat. So a farmer, for example, grows ingredients because combatants want to eat those ingredients for buffs.'

Our experience is that other buffs are usually ignored, or cause overpowered crafting. Or worse, force crafters to go out of their way to get food.

What are some examples of noncombat related, non-stat related buffs that you consider relevant?

Dygz

I expect food buffs to be stat related, but they don't only have to be combat stats.
We have examples of combat stats, like Physical Evasion Bonus and Magical Evasion Bonus.
I expect individuals to choose items from menus that can buff those. Especially since there will likely be items that buff the 6 primary stats.

We don't have any examples yet of Artisan stats or Social Org stats or Religious Stats or Racial Stats or Node-related stats. So, I can't give examples.
But, my issue is not so much with the list of dishes and their potential buffs, provided in the OP.
My issue is with the questions asked and the answers given. The fundamental concept of Taverns and focus of food buffs presented.

I'm content to wait on the devs but if you wanted to theorycraft non-combat examples, you could brainstorm potential Artisan stats like you brainstormed potential Adventurer stats. You could also brainstorm Social Org stats and Religious stats and Naval stats.
There might also be food buffs that help with parlor games and other Tavern-related activities.
There could be food that buffs Mentality - which makes it easier to recruit NPC minions and mercenaries.
Overall, the focus of Tavern food buffs should be on recuperating from combat rather than prepping for combat...or activities not related to combat. Taverns should be more about rest, relaxation and RP than about Group combat prep.

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