Your goals from the augment system may be the best supported. I may be wrong, but you seem to be thinking about the augments as how they can best modify individual skills to make you more effective at your role. You don't seem to want to deviate from the primary archetype, just have access to modifications to make you 'better' at doing the things you already do. I think that as valid as this is, I'm not really sure how good it feels for most players to just have the 8 classes in reality when they think they're promised 64. If you can't really have distinct identities, you're simply just buffing yourself in the way you think would be best instead of modifying your skills and class to be distinct.
It's a semantics problem.
Other RPGs would say 8 Classes/64 total sub-classes.
The augments will create very distinct identities, but we will always be primarily playing the primary role of the Primary Archetype. The way we go about the role of the same Primary Archetype will be significantly different.
And the goal is not really buffing yourself in the way you think is best, rather it is all about buffing yourself in way that you like best - to distinguish yourself from others.
When I play a Cleric during an Ashes Siege, I'm usually wishing I had augments from a Rogue's Stealth School so I can go Invisible after I drop Hallowed Ground. Sunday's test also had me wishing I could drop traps and/or grenades.
A Cleric/Ranger might be wanting to add a Snare/Root augment to their Hallowed Ground.
A Cleric/Cleric might want to add an augment from the Death School to their Hallowed Ground.
A Cleric/Summoner might use a Summon minion augment with their Hallowed Ground.
And that is just Secondary Augments - it's not factoring in the distinctions derived from racial, social org, religious, Node and naval augments.
If this was a pen and paper rpg, the charlatan would be a social rogue. One using his charisma more than his hands to achieve his goals. Using his charm to trick people. A bard/rogue (trickster) would use his tricks to charm and entertain his audience.
Love it. I think Charlatan was a AD&D 2nd edition Thief Kit. Honestly, there were so many good characters in that rulebook. The smuggler would be a particularly awesome class/role to play in AoC.
To the topic at large, nothing suggestions that Intrepid is going to approach classes haphazardly. So I’m confident the classes will feel different enough, and class families (same archetype, different 2nd archetype) will feel similar enough to provide some solid roles. That plus any weapon will give some additional diversity.
For me, I’m pretty stuck on Ranger / Tank. I prefer bow as main with a sword & board when distances close.
Just realized that if Secondary Archetype augments are optional then there are actually 72 “class” variants. Using “class” loosely since the eight primary archetypes are the real deal.
Interested in seeing how all of the non-archetype augments come into play and if there would be reasons to opt for those rather than the secondary archetype augments.
As for which Archetype/Class combo. I am leaning towards finding a group and then figuring out what combo fits best within the group. If the game is really centralized around the group, then this sounds like the most reasonable option to get the most out of the game. The good news is with Steven’s preference for Cleric, and I am sure his experience in D&D and Pathfinder where the player running cleric was heal, heal, channel, channel, channel, that Cleric won’t suck in AoC.
Just realized that if Secondary Archetype augments are optional then there are actually 72 “class” variants. Using “class” loosely since the eight primary archetypes are the real deal.
Interested in seeing how all of the non-archetype augments come into play and if there would be reasons to opt for those rather than the secondary archetype augments.
You get those in addition to your class augments.
You're literally just nerfing yourself to not choose a secondary archetype.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm pretty sure you have to pick a Secondary Archetype.
You could not use the augments if you wanted to.
There are tons of augments from other categories - if you prefer to use those.
I'm all for the artisan gameplay if i can be a merchant/tamer/gatherer whatever thats what most of my gameplay will be if i need some pve i'll probably do that last.
So what would be the benefit of selecting a secondary archetype if you opt not to select the optional secondary augments? That’s what I am getting at. You could just fill your bar with other options from other non-class augments. And come to think of it should you be penalized by either not selecting a secondary archetype or just not opting for the secondary augments.
This isn’t a question of being optimal. It’s a question of player choice.
What other benefits do the secondary archetypes grant besides augments, and what do you lose from your primary archetype? If it all just boils down to optional secondary augments and a fancy class name, then is that really all that?
Not everyone chooses to have nuts on their Sundae.
That’s before even considering what may or may not stack. I am sure AoC is trying to limit the options that don’t stack, but that’s a hard thing to implement. Characters easily become broken without such considerations. Pathfinder was notorious for that with all of their supplemental books.
So what would be the benefit of selecting a secondary archetype if you opt not to select the optional secondary augments? That’s what I am getting at. You could just fill your bar with other options from other non-class augments. And come to think of it should you be penalized by either not selecting a secondary archetype or just not opting for the secondary augments.
This isn’t a question of being optimal. It’s a question of player choice.
What other benefits do the secondary archetypes grant besides augments, and what do you lose from your primary archetype? If it all just boils down to optional secondary augments and a fancy class name, then is that really all that?
Not everyone chooses to have nuts on their Sundae.
That’s before even considering what may or may not stack. I am sure AoC is trying to limit the options that don’t stack, but that’s a hard thing to implement. Characters easily become broken without such considerations. Pathfinder was notorious for that with all of their supplemental books.
Yeah, for sure. Religious and organizational Augments are gonna be interesting, since there are a lot of augment types that would be good but wouldn't work well on Secondary Archetypes without pigeonholing people into specific ideas and builds, which the Creative Director doesn't seem to want to do.
I can see some sort of 'Holy Order Templars' org giving an Augment that buffs your block chance, for example, which you could just go 'well that's neither here nor there, I don't care about it'. If you put that on a Tank augment, though, then suddenly people who don't like using Shield have one less viable augment to choose from.
I still think the optional secondary Augments are going to be fairly impactful to performance, though. An ArchWizard whose Blink effect calls down six or seven lightning strikes in their wake as they move is a pretty different beast than just 'someone who disappears' (if Blink starts to get past collision).
Shapechanger! Every game needs it, even if they dont know it yet ^^
Might have to add a new archertype for that to work out. Shifter.
But 2nd best option would be Conjurer and augment the summons to swap place with your physical body (so that your physical body is for the duration, and/or until the summon is killed,in a spiritrealm of sorts)
Could make a necromancer into a Lich/vampire/Zombielord, a beastmaster into differetn animals (like Dnd druid), a spellmancer into an elemental....etc etc
First of all, I'm a Bard. You might have guessed from the name, or remembered my post before. I want all the usual Bardy goodness. Buffs for all sorts of stats, recovery over time, damage over time, and the various stat and status debuffs that make up the Bard class as we know it from so many other games. What Azherae has put together in her Bard Compilation post (with a little help from me, gathering the data) sounds perfectly good to me overall. What comes next, is obviously, the subclass, or secondary archetype in Ashes parlance.
To choose my subclass (Spoiler: It's probably Rogue), I have to consider what I need or want, that Bard alone can't give me. (Shoutouts to all you Minstrels though!)
1. I want to blind my opponents with weapon attacks. I could probably get this from Bard with an accuracy debuff (like "Narrative Goal: Demoralize" > "Grace" in the above-mentioned compilation/theory), but even if I can, I still want it on weapon attacks or abilities. It just feels better that way. I don't want to have to worry about cooldowns on that (or linked abilities), and it'd be nice if it worked while "Silenced" (if this game turns out to have a status like that). I'm not extremely particular about whether it's an additional effect on normal hits (possibly activated for a short time by an ability or augment), or whether it's a weapon-related augment or ability in itself.
2. I want the ability to increase my evasion. Sure, I could get that from Bard abilities, but it'd cost "song slots", or cooldowns, or whatever else is involved there. Also, I want this to be a stance or ability that raises it sharply for a shorter period of time (limited by cooldown, of course), that I can use when my target is about to enter a dangerous stance of their own, or start using some big attack. Bonus points if this affects magic too, but, again, I won't insist. I'd also be happy to see a stance that will let me buff my evasion longer term, at the cost of DPS, as long as I can cancel out of it when I'm ready. I'm also happy for any form of shadow-trickery nonsense that lets me get similar results. I am fond of striking from the shadows.
3. I'd like the ability to bind my opponents and root them in place. I don't know how much CC we're going to get, and I can see how this gets OP fast if it lasts too long, or too many people have it. (Long cooldown? PvE only? Balance isn't my expertise.) Still, I would appreciate the ability to control the flow of battle that something like this provides. I would use it to change situations: To get a few seconds of breathing room. To let my critically wounded teammate back off a bit so they can be healed. To just give myself a head start if I want to run away. I would use it to create opportunities: My mages can go ham if they know that the enemy can't chase them down before the tank gets it's attention back (right after it wasted its long range ability, of course). So many possibilities.
4. I want a "Cripple" style effect, that limits enemy abilities. Preferably heavily right at the beginning, and diminishing over time. Lots of subtlety here as well. I can use it right as I expect an enemy is about to use their powerful attack for an almost stun-like effect (or in PvP, a race between my predictive skill and their awareness and reactions (to delay their own ability)). Or I can use it when I just need some more control or safety, and rely on the longer-term, weaker effect.
5. Extra critical hit or accuracy buffs really can't hurt. (Well. Me, anyway.)
Blinding, Evasion, Shadows, Rooting, Cripples, and Criticals. Definitely looking like /Rogue. I might even have a Rogue alt, but I'm never abandoning Bard. It will always be my main.
Things I don't want:
I don't need the whole "Backstab" thing. I'm not really a stereotypical rogue in that sense. I don't mind the ability, but setting things up in that way, as a major goal, isn't something I'd like to be focused on. It'd get annoying or distracting eventually, so I just won't unlock that particular augment. I prefer to keep my focus on control. I'll let my teammates capitalize, in that regard, or just wear down the enemy myself through debuffs, sustain, and evasion.
A lot of these would make solid abilities on their own, but they're fundamentally all compatible with augments. Probably mostly on Weapon related skills, as I don't see Bard having many active direct-damage abilities, but there will probably be some on those too.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So what would be the benefit of selecting a secondary archetype if you opt not to select the optional secondary augments? That’s what I am getting at. You could just fill your bar with other options from other non-class augments. And come to think of it should you be penalized by either not selecting a secondary archetype or just not opting for the secondary augments.
There is no benefit for not using your Secondary Archetype augments. You get to use whatever augments you wish, from any category.
What other benefits do the secondary archetypes grant besides augments, and what do you lose from your primary archetype? If it all just boils down to optional secondary augments and a fancy class name, then is that really all that?
No benefits that we know of so far. It's just an opportunity to play a bit of a hybrid class via augments based on different archetypes - if that's what you want.
My Cleric can play a bit like a Rogue if I add Rogue augments onto my Cleric's active skills.
That’s before even considering what may or may not stack. I am sure AoC is trying to limit the options that don’t stack, but that’s a hard thing to implement. Characters easily become broken without such considerations. Pathfinder was notorious for that with all of their supplemental books.
Comments
Other RPGs would say 8 Classes/64 total sub-classes.
The augments will create very distinct identities, but we will always be primarily playing the primary role of the Primary Archetype. The way we go about the role of the same Primary Archetype will be significantly different.
And the goal is not really buffing yourself in the way you think is best, rather it is all about buffing yourself in way that you like best - to distinguish yourself from others.
When I play a Cleric during an Ashes Siege, I'm usually wishing I had augments from a Rogue's Stealth School so I can go Invisible after I drop Hallowed Ground. Sunday's test also had me wishing I could drop traps and/or grenades.
A Cleric/Ranger might be wanting to add a Snare/Root augment to their Hallowed Ground.
A Cleric/Cleric might want to add an augment from the Death School to their Hallowed Ground.
A Cleric/Summoner might use a Summon minion augment with their Hallowed Ground.
And that is just Secondary Augments - it's not factoring in the distinctions derived from racial, social org, religious, Node and naval augments.
Love it. I think Charlatan was a AD&D 2nd edition Thief Kit. Honestly, there were so many good characters in that rulebook. The smuggler would be a particularly awesome class/role to play in AoC.
To the topic at large, nothing suggestions that Intrepid is going to approach classes haphazardly. So I’m confident the classes will feel different enough, and class families (same archetype, different 2nd archetype) will feel similar enough to provide some solid roles. That plus any weapon will give some additional diversity.
For me, I’m pretty stuck on Ranger / Tank. I prefer bow as main with a sword & board when distances close.
Interested in seeing how all of the non-archetype augments come into play and if there would be reasons to opt for those rather than the secondary archetype augments.
As for which Archetype/Class combo. I am leaning towards finding a group and then figuring out what combo fits best within the group. If the game is really centralized around the group, then this sounds like the most reasonable option to get the most out of the game. The good news is with Steven’s preference for Cleric, and I am sure his experience in D&D and Pathfinder where the player running cleric was heal, heal, channel, channel, channel, that Cleric won’t suck in AoC.
You get those in addition to your class augments.
You're literally just nerfing yourself to not choose a secondary archetype.
You could not use the augments if you wanted to.
There are tons of augments from other categories - if you prefer to use those.
This isn’t a question of being optimal. It’s a question of player choice.
What other benefits do the secondary archetypes grant besides augments, and what do you lose from your primary archetype? If it all just boils down to optional secondary augments and a fancy class name, then is that really all that?
Not everyone chooses to have nuts on their Sundae.
That’s before even considering what may or may not stack. I am sure AoC is trying to limit the options that don’t stack, but that’s a hard thing to implement. Characters easily become broken without such considerations. Pathfinder was notorious for that with all of their supplemental books.
Yeah, for sure. Religious and organizational Augments are gonna be interesting, since there are a lot of augment types that would be good but wouldn't work well on Secondary Archetypes without pigeonholing people into specific ideas and builds, which the Creative Director doesn't seem to want to do.
I can see some sort of 'Holy Order Templars' org giving an Augment that buffs your block chance, for example, which you could just go 'well that's neither here nor there, I don't care about it'. If you put that on a Tank augment, though, then suddenly people who don't like using Shield have one less viable augment to choose from.
I still think the optional secondary Augments are going to be fairly impactful to performance, though. An ArchWizard whose Blink effect calls down six or seven lightning strikes in their wake as they move is a pretty different beast than just 'someone who disappears' (if Blink starts to get past collision).
Might have to add a new archertype for that to work out. Shifter.
But 2nd best option would be Conjurer and augment the summons to swap place with your physical body (so that your physical body is for the duration, and/or until the summon is killed,in a spiritrealm of sorts)
Could make a necromancer into a Lich/vampire/Zombielord, a beastmaster into differetn animals (like Dnd druid), a spellmancer into an elemental....etc etc
First of all, I'm a Bard. You might have guessed from the name, or remembered my post before. I want all the usual Bardy goodness. Buffs for all sorts of stats, recovery over time, damage over time, and the various stat and status debuffs that make up the Bard class as we know it from so many other games. What Azherae has put together in her Bard Compilation post (with a little help from me, gathering the data) sounds perfectly good to me overall. What comes next, is obviously, the subclass, or secondary archetype in Ashes parlance.
To choose my subclass (Spoiler: It's probably Rogue), I have to consider what I need or want, that Bard alone can't give me. (Shoutouts to all you Minstrels though!)
1. I want to blind my opponents with weapon attacks. I could probably get this from Bard with an accuracy debuff (like "Narrative Goal: Demoralize" > "Grace" in the above-mentioned compilation/theory), but even if I can, I still want it on weapon attacks or abilities. It just feels better that way. I don't want to have to worry about cooldowns on that (or linked abilities), and it'd be nice if it worked while "Silenced" (if this game turns out to have a status like that). I'm not extremely particular about whether it's an additional effect on normal hits (possibly activated for a short time by an ability or augment), or whether it's a weapon-related augment or ability in itself.
2. I want the ability to increase my evasion. Sure, I could get that from Bard abilities, but it'd cost "song slots", or cooldowns, or whatever else is involved there. Also, I want this to be a stance or ability that raises it sharply for a shorter period of time (limited by cooldown, of course), that I can use when my target is about to enter a dangerous stance of their own, or start using some big attack. Bonus points if this affects magic too, but, again, I won't insist. I'd also be happy to see a stance that will let me buff my evasion longer term, at the cost of DPS, as long as I can cancel out of it when I'm ready. I'm also happy for any form of shadow-trickery nonsense that lets me get similar results. I am fond of striking from the shadows.
3. I'd like the ability to bind my opponents and root them in place. I don't know how much CC we're going to get, and I can see how this gets OP fast if it lasts too long, or too many people have it. (Long cooldown? PvE only? Balance isn't my expertise.) Still, I would appreciate the ability to control the flow of battle that something like this provides. I would use it to change situations: To get a few seconds of breathing room. To let my critically wounded teammate back off a bit so they can be healed. To just give myself a head start if I want to run away. I would use it to create opportunities: My mages can go ham if they know that the enemy can't chase them down before the tank gets it's attention back (right after it wasted its long range ability, of course). So many possibilities.
4. I want a "Cripple" style effect, that limits enemy abilities. Preferably heavily right at the beginning, and diminishing over time. Lots of subtlety here as well. I can use it right as I expect an enemy is about to use their powerful attack for an almost stun-like effect (or in PvP, a race between my predictive skill and their awareness and reactions (to delay their own ability)). Or I can use it when I just need some more control or safety, and rely on the longer-term, weaker effect.
5. Extra critical hit or accuracy buffs really can't hurt. (Well. Me, anyway.)
Blinding, Evasion, Shadows, Rooting, Cripples, and Criticals. Definitely looking like /Rogue. I might even have a Rogue alt, but I'm never abandoning Bard. It will always be my main.
Things I don't want:
I don't need the whole "Backstab" thing. I'm not really a stereotypical rogue in that sense. I don't mind the ability, but setting things up in that way, as a major goal, isn't something I'd like to be focused on. It'd get annoying or distracting eventually, so I just won't unlock that particular augment. I prefer to keep my focus on control. I'll let my teammates capitalize, in that regard, or just wear down the enemy myself through debuffs, sustain, and evasion.
A lot of these would make solid abilities on their own, but they're fundamentally all compatible with augments. Probably mostly on Weapon related skills, as I don't see Bard having many active direct-damage abilities, but there will probably be some on those too.
No benefits that we know of so far. It's just an opportunity to play a bit of a hybrid class via augments based on different archetypes - if that's what you want.
My Cleric can play a bit like a Rogue if I add Rogue augments onto my Cleric's active skills.
What???