Archetype & class question

How's the Archetype / Class system going to work? Will you be able to master it all if you wanted on one character and swap between them similar to ffxiv or will the game be alt heavy?

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Azherae

Alt-heavy.

Galux

Azherae wrote: »

Alt-heavy.

Is that final?

Azherae

Yes.

Galux

I see, that's a pretty significant downside to the game in my opinion, hope they'll change their mind about the old alt mentality

Aerlana

it is a more traditionnal MMORPG : 1 archetype at creation, at lvl25 you take a secundary archetype, and, you can change the 2nd but it is not "free"

For more information see this link
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes#Changing.2Fswitching

When it comes to the the primary archetype, that is a decision you'll want to make and you'll want to make sure it's the right decision, because it's permanent... You are going to create this identity that you can't just change on the fly. This is going to be something that you will know a person and you will know what their base archetype is and they're not just going to change from battle to battle. So that gives some consistency in the engagements and understanding reputation on the server.[8] – Steven Sharif

The secondary archetype of a class may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]

Players will likely need to speak to a NPC in a Village node or above to enable them to change their secondary archetype and skill augments.[41]
This may be done through a quest system.[42][43]
There probably will be a cooldown associated with switching secondary archetype.[42]
It may also be possible to swap between multiple specs after the cooldown period.[42]

Ridiel

The point is, that creating alts will not make you able to do more content (apart from possibly artisan classes) Most of the Content is balacned toward 8/16/40+ player groups. So you are encouraged to interact with other players to group up.

Dygz

Um. You really think that alts don't interact with other players and don't group up???
Ashes is a roleplaying game - which means we get to play different characters... who have different roles than our main(s).

Atama

Galux wrote: »

How's the Archetype / Class system going to work? Will you be able to master it all if you wanted on one character and swap between them similar to ffxiv or will the game be alt heavy?

So what we know now, the plan at least. is that you pick one primary archetype for a character at the start and that is permanent. No changing it. (Archetype in this game is the equivalent of a class in just about every other MMORPG, they just rebranded it.)

On the other hand, your class is more like a specialization in other games. It's a significant choice but not a permanent one. You won't be able to swap them around casually, but you aren't locked into one forever. I don't think they've revealed what will be required (spending in-game currency, taking on XP debt, waiting for a cooldown, completing a quest, who knows) but something will be involved that makes it a big deal to change. But you can change.

So basically if you start out as a Bard, you're never going to be able to change that. At level 25, you can take on Fighter as a secondary archetype and become a Tellsword. If you decide later that you are too squishy and want to raise your defenses, you can swap over to Tank as a secondary archetype and become a Siren. But you'll never become a full-blown Tank as a main archetype unless you roll up an alt.

CondeZero

Speaking of this, I really like the fact that you won't be able to change your primary archetype, and that's it's not free/too easy to change your second one

Dudebruh

Pretty sure you can pick one of the eight classes to be your main and choose one of the eight augment classes to enhance your class's role/playstyle.

I'm rolling a tank, healer, and ranged dps. I won't settle on which augment until I try each that enhances my playstyle. For example, I'm hoping a Paladin makes a good off-tank that fits my playstyle. I'm not the main tank in big raids, but useful. On the other hand, I can be a main tank in smaller group content.

Aerlana

Dudebruh wrote: »

Pretty sure you can pick one of the eight classes to be your main and choose one of the eight augment classes to enhance your class's role/playstyle.

I'm rolling a tank, healer, and ranged dps. I won't settle on which augment until I try each that enhances my playstyle. For example, I'm hoping a Paladin makes a good off-tank that fits my playstyle. I'm not the main tank in big raids, but useful. On the other hand, I can be a main tank in smaller group content.

As said, class (or second archetype) is more a "specialisation" than a real class. Because it "only" gives augments, while main stats and skills comes from first archetype.

and because for the "big" content, the tank will be "main tank" i think all 8 spec can do this.
What will be able to maybe off-tank in those big content would be the 7 spec with tank as second archetype
Even more, "it has to be this way" A raid can reach 40 people for 64 "classes". If only a part of the 8 class tank can "main tank" it will be hard to get some.

Dudebruh

Aerlana wrote: »

Dudebruh wrote: »

Pretty sure you can pick one of the eight classes to be your main and choose one of the eight augment classes to enhance your class's role/playstyle.

I'm rolling a tank, healer, and ranged dps. I won't settle on which augment until I try each that enhances my playstyle. For example, I'm hoping a Paladin makes a good off-tank that fits my playstyle. I'm not the main tank in big raids, but useful. On the other hand, I can be a main tank in smaller group content.

As said, class (or second archetype) is more a "specialisation" than a real class. Because it "only" gives augments, while main stats and skills comes from first archetype.

and because for the "big" content, the tank will be "main tank" i think all 8 spec can do this.
What will be able to maybe off-tank in those big content would be the 7 spec with tank as second archetype
Even more, "it has to be this way" A raid can reach 40 people for 64 "classes". If only a part of the 8 class tank can "main tank" it will be hard to get some.

Where can I read more about the Tank line from the Devs?

I never heard a non-Tank class with a tank augment could off-tank big content. I thought those were just "beefy" versions of said non-Tank class.

All of this is going to be interesting to see has time goes by. Isn't it exciting?

Aerlana

Dudebruh wrote: »

I never heard a non-Tank class with a tank augment could off-tank big content. I thought those were just "beefy" versions of said non-Tank class.

All of this is going to be interesting to see has time goes by. Isn't it exciting?

nothing being clearly said. but with 2 thing different we can think and hope that the 7 classes with second archetype tank (or part of them maybe) could be decent tank for "low" content (like some dungeons) or maybe even off tank.
tank will be clearly better, but getting more choice for smaller content is better. you will prefer take a "big" tank for anything but if your tank friend is not logged in, would be good to be able to have your broodwarden doing the job.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank

You will need a tank more or less depending on what's happening in the environment. Certainly in dungeons you will need a tank. I don't picture us creating any encounters that wouldn't need that sort of control. Now we're not just focused on aggro in terms of control and managing mobs... It's not just about mitigating damage, although that's a part of the sort of calculus there, but it's also about making sure that the mobs are doing what you want them to do.[7] – Jeffrey Bard

"more or less depending on what's happening"
For me it sounds on "always better choice, but sometimes, if you don't have one avaible, it is not mandatory"

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles

Skill augments available through the class system allow characters to be personalized outside of their primary role.[2][4][5]

We have our eight base archetypes; and the trinity is a pretty strong influence with regards to the eight base classes. However the area in which we actually begin to play with that line between the trinity is in the secondary classes that you can pick. That's where we begin to blend those spaces and allow people a little bit of influence over their role and whether or not they fit perfectly within a particular category within the trinity.[5] – Steven Sharif

Here for me, it clearly says that, while you wont be as good as character which primary archetype fit perfectly the role, you can do a similar work, on not hardest content.

tanking is "aggro" + "mitigation"
the second is also stuff dependant, (plate)
If one augment help for aggro, and another for mitigation. it could do the work (AGAIN not for the big contents, or no more than offtank on them)
The time we don't know anything about tank augments, it is pure speculation / hope

Atama

Dudebruh wrote: »

Where can I read more about the Tank line from the Devs?

I never heard a non-Tank class with a tank augment could off-tank big content. I thought those were just "beefy" versions of said non-Tank class.

Frankly we just don't know. We do know that augments will change the behavior of skills, but they won't give you new skills.

So it is possible that, say, your Spellstone (Mage with Tank secondary) doesn't get the taunting and defensive skills of a Tank. But maybe your Fireball taunts enemies, and your Drain Essence heals you enough to keep you from dying, and in that sense you can off-tank. Or maybe it just gives you enough defensive abilities to stay alive a little longer when soloing, but doesn't grant that much true utility to a group so that you can do more than be less of a burden to a healer. We just don't know yet. And it's possible that Intrepid hasn't even gotten that far on their own internal testing to decide if that's where they want to go.

It's also possible that they'll decide one way, and after testing and feedback in alpha/beta, they change things before release.

Dygz

Based on the current design, we can expect that x/Tanks will have a School of augments that generate Threat and a School of augments that mitigates damage. And those augments will allow x/Tanks to off-tank.
Just as we can expect Clerics to have a School for Death that deals damage and a School for Life that provides heals.

But, we still have to see a list of Schools, a list of augments, and augment descriptions... and have them implemented and tested to truly know.

Ebro Epaito

I'm curious will the bard class be able to "provoke" and "entice" mobs to attacks for you and just the opposite will they be able to "sooth" creatures in help for taming ? Like Old Old school Ultima Online.

Dygz

Songcallers and Enchanters might be able to do that.

Aerlana

Ebro Epaito wrote: »

I'm curious will the bard class be able to "provoke" and "entice" mobs to attacks for you and just the opposite will they be able to "sooth" creatures in help for taming ? Like Old Old school Ultima Online.

bard is support probably "buff/debuff" kind, so i don't think he will have taunt. maybe he will have a "redirect hate" thing like we can see on some games. (mainly i think of hunter on wow but not the only one)
augments from tank archetype will only "modify" skills to adapt a little what the class can do. So probably there won't be "taunt" but maybe hate bonus.

Again, we don't know anything from tank augments, and bard skills so... all said here can in the end be totally false ^^'

Azherae

Dudebruh wrote: »

Aerlana wrote: »

Dudebruh wrote: »

Pretty sure you can pick one of the eight classes to be your main and choose one of the eight augment classes to enhance your class's role/playstyle.

I'm rolling a tank, healer, and ranged dps. I won't settle on which augment until I try each that enhances my playstyle. For example, I'm hoping a Paladin makes a good off-tank that fits my playstyle. I'm not the main tank in big raids, but useful. On the other hand, I can be a main tank in smaller group content.

As said, class (or second archetype) is more a "specialisation" than a real class. Because it "only" gives augments, while main stats and skills comes from first archetype.

and because for the "big" content, the tank will be "main tank" i think all 8 spec can do this.
What will be able to maybe off-tank in those big content would be the 7 spec with tank as second archetype
Even more, "it has to be this way" A raid can reach 40 people for 64 "classes". If only a part of the 8 class tank can "main tank" it will be hard to get some.

Where can I read more about the Tank line from the Devs?

I never heard a non-Tank class with a tank augment could off-tank big content. I thought those were just "beefy" versions of said non-Tank class.

All of this is going to be interesting to see has time goes by. Isn't it exciting?

There isn't much information available, but based on what we do know, number crunching is possible. If you know all the Tank abilities, see below. If you don't, check the wiki for classes.

A Tank/Bard has three distinct advantages over a Bard/Tank, for tanking most content.
1. Ultimate Defense, which will, on average, be 40% damage reduction in a serious fight while it is up, if the player is decent.
2. Javelin, which will most likely turn the enemy toward you even if they choose to make monsters so big that they can't be actually pulled.
3. Bulwark, which is only advantage if a shield is equipped, but still a strong option.

Even if the two classes wear identical armor and weapons, we know that the base stats of the Bard will have less Constitution, which may lead to less damage mitigation. We can't be sure that they will have advantage in Power, but it's likely.

So even if the Siren (Bard/Tank) uses a buff with Damage mitigation Augment, it's really hard to be better than Ultimate Defense. Even if they put Threat Generation on one of their Debuffs, and it's powerful enough to match the 'additional threat' of Javelin, Javelin does some damage and pulls attention.

Even if they both equip a shield, the Argent (Tank/Bard) makes better use of this shield. Damage mitigation obviously favors the Argent.

But numerically, if the enemy does conal damage, the Siren is the most likely to have hate after the Argent eventually loses it. If single target damage, it might be harder because the Argent will also quickly lose hate if hit too hard and the target will start to bounce around. If they were tanking alone, or only with another /Tank, this could get rough. In this case the Argent will probably take it back, and a Tank main can almost always take it back safely as soon as Ultimate Defense is back up, as long as they are within the range of the upper hate line.

We can assume that Tank Threat Generation Augments will generate values of additional threat of at least 70% of the 'additional threat' assigned to the current Tank abilities, or a threat multiplier on your ability, because otherwise those augments are useless (since /Tank doesn't affect what gear you can wear nor offer any abilities).

Threat Multipliers are more likely since it scales better and balances things more. That's another essayworth though.

A Bard/Tank needs more support to get closer to a MainTank performance, but an OffTank's main source of damage mitigation is... the main Tank. So they only need to worry about 'generating threat' and 'not dying before the main tank can get Ultimate Defense back up'.

Atama

Azherae wrote: »

There isn't much information available, but based on what we do know, number crunching is possible. If you know all the Tank abilities, see below. If you don't, check the wiki for classes.

Again, where are you getting this info, or are you making it up? Because it looks like you're making it up.

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