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Feedback: Combat, Action Mode

DecimusDecimus Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Having played the game in various alphas since 2017, it's good to see how the combat has come a long way since then and keeps getting better one alpha after another. There are some things I feel like pointing out though that didn't really seem to enhance the gameplay experience:
  1. Tab targeting in action mode. The point of action mode is having to aim your abilities and keep your reticle on the target. However the moment you also tab your target while in action mode, this becomes irrelevant as the projectiles and skills become homing missiles again. Tab target should not work in action mode, or there should be some downsides to using it compared to manually landing skills.
  2. Skill ranges could be better communicated - throwing projectiles or skills at someone you have on your reticle only to see them disappear into the air before your target is hit kinda sucks - understandably you can't have infinite range on abilities in a MMO that also has tab combat, so maybe projectiles could have a dropping trajectory to implicate the range, or start clearly dissolving as they approach their maximum distance?

Just a few thoughts I had on what could be improved with the action combat while I was playing - keep up the good work Intrepid.

Comments

  • truenoirtruenoir Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    From what I see though the action combat mode really doesn't have a purpose cause why switch to it and have to aim if you can just auto target with tab targeting mode. This really is why the two don't belong in a game since there's really no advantages to one or the other at that point. If the game should be a skill based game there should be no tab targeting at all then.

    The other thing I noticed is the combat feels pretty clunky cause the "evading monsters" seems to more or less just happen at random. Because monsters target you via the tab targeting system most hits can't be evaded by simply rolling out of the way cause the moment you turn unless the monster is taking some slow cast it will follow you in its pathing and still hit you.

    I hate to bring up combat systems from other games and how they work for action combat but if I don't then you won't really understand what I mean about it being clunky currently https://youtube.com/watch?v=yd8aKXW9RAo
    So if you notice the fight above the monster that he engages with is more of a static targeting system. It sees him and its fully trying to attack him but it's not on a tab targeting system which makes it less likely to make quick turns and damage the player. Our current system regardless of how we move the monster is still able to hit us and can do a quick movement to the side or just be attacking to the side. We are still fresh in development of alpha. But honestly when it comes down to it unless we use action combat only for pvp and disable tab targeting during pvp systems I think there's no reason to really have action combat in the game and just stick to atab targeting system.

    Pretty sure that is why we haven't seen any hybrid system even in other mmorpgs in the past that talked about having both systems bottom line during the end of the development it switched to one or the other. Cause they really aren't systems that work together well.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    truenoir wrote: »
    From what I see though the action combat mode really doesn't have a purpose cause why switch to it and have to aim if you can just auto target with tab targeting mode. This really is why the two don't belong in a game since there's really no advantages to one or the other at that point. If the game should be a skill based game there should be no tab targeting at all then.

    I'm going to play devil's advocate on this.

    Why SHOULD we have both options in the game? People enjoy playing games differently. If there are no advantages to one or the other - we SHOULD have both. Why? Because it casts a wider net to bring people into the game.

    We should not be jumping to any conclusions about the hybrid system just yet. There are for sure more ways to innovate on it, and those need to be explored. One of the biggest innovations I can think of, is adding a real sense of verticallity to what would typically be a mostly top down game. (often times tab target games turn into top down camera only, in order to see things on the ground)

    Want to hit an enemy on a castle ledge? aim at them in action mode, include boss mechanics where players can aim skills at weak points, etc.

  • truenoirtruenoir Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    MrPockets wrote: »
    truenoir wrote: »
    From what I see though the action combat mode really doesn't have a purpose cause why switch to it and have to aim if you can just auto target with tab targeting mode. This really is why the two don't belong in a game since there's really no advantages to one or the other at that point. If the game should be a skill based game there should be no tab targeting at all then.

    I'm going to play devil's advocate on this.

    Why SHOULD we have both options in the game? People enjoy playing games differently. If there are no advantages to one or the other - we SHOULD have both. Why? Because it casts a wider net to bring people into the game.

    We should not be jumping to any conclusions about the hybrid system just yet. There are for sure more ways to innovate on it, and those need to be explored. One of the biggest innovations I can think of, is adding a real sense of verticallity to what would typically be a mostly top down game. (often times tab target games turn into top down camera only, in order to see things on the ground)

    Want to hit an enemy on a castle ledge? aim at them in action mode, include boss mechanics where players can aim skills at weak points, etc.

    I know what you mean from a mechanical point of view that is good but still someone tab targeting can do the same things as someone that's playing action combat without needing to aim. But even still if we want to make use of a system that allows dodging and blocking the monsters shouldn't be following a tab target system for it to feel fun.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    truenoir wrote: »
    I know what you mean from a mechanical point of view that is good but still someone tab targeting can do the same things as someone that's playing action combat without needing to aim.

    I think this is the key distinction. I've seen people bring up this idea before too. Maybe skills act slightly differently while in action mode vs tab mode - so they aren't see as "the same thing".

    Now does that mean action mode should just always be more effective, since people need to aim? I think this is the tricky part, because if that's the case, tab target mostly becomes obsolete, and then your argument starts sounding more appealing.

    But again, I will try to come at this from another point of view...
    Let's say I'm a player who is terrible at aiming, and overall just prefer tab target because it is mechanically easier for me personally. There is a good chance that player is willing to take a dps loss for tab targeting. I still enjoy the game, and want to stick around. whereas if the game switched to action only, there is a good chance I end up quitting because the combat just isn't my cup of tea.

    Overall, I think the pros of allowing both styles outweigh the cons, the game just needs to be designed with them in mind.
  • KreedKreed Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    I prefer action combat as a play style, tab targeting has been around for a very long time and since action based targeting came along I find it way more fun and desirable, I like others have moved on from the days of tab targeting style. I can see a use to switch tab targeting when doing specific targeting as required.

    I think having the option to go either or for players is a good idea. Let the players decide what they prefer. I dont really see any advantage over the other other than a persons skill during game play.

    What I do see is each needs to be refined so that they both function as their intended design.
    • Hit boxes on mobs need to be adjusted so the action targeting picks them up easier than they currently do.
    • character game speed needs a slight adjustment up.

    During the last few days I encountered a speed buff in the middle of combat, instantly I found the game play for combat way more enjoyable. Not entirely sure what caused it, I know it wasnt the stamina bug that has been reported because I have already encountered that. The following next day I came across the quest that offers a speed boost buff and it was similar to what I encountered during combat, it did seem slightly faster.

    But the point is compared to regular speed we start off with and the 5% boost in passives you can get the characters still feel like they are to sluggish in movement in and out of combat. A slight boost that comes close to the quest boost would dramatically improve game play over all. It just needs to be adjusted to noticeably take off the sluggishness and make your movement a bit more free. If compared to the quest boost maybe not as much as it gives, the speed could be set between 50 to 75 % of what that buff is?

    Mounts especially, the mule looks like a slow motion run stuck in molasses. regular speed shift 1 seems far better regular speed.


  • BondBond Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kreed wrote: »
    • Hit boxes on mobs need to be adjusted so the action targeting picks them up easier than they currently do.
    • character game speed needs a slight adjustment up.

    Either this, or there needs to be a reward for the greater degree of difficulty with ‘skill shots’.

    Right now it feels like being punished for doing something more difficult, i.e. more risk, less reward.
  • VysciVysci Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Think people are overlooking that this impacts skill design. Often times the mechanic of the skill only works with 1 system in mind. For instance if you have just tab targeting then single target skills, such as a targeted heal work really well. However the same skills in action combat are just straight up worse, try to skill shot a single target heal in a raid, you will miss or hit the wrong person.

    Games that have action combat the skills are more of AoE or they decide who to target for you. Instead of a single target heal you will get a heal that heals in a cone in front of you, or heals the lowest Hp person.

    By having both you aren’t able to make design decisions that would play to the systems strength but instead you end up limiting the space trying to make skills and mechanics that kind of work okay with both systems. What is the benefit of having both except being confused on the direction to go
  • truelyyytruelyyy Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    the system is currently clearly tab targetted with action elements such a dodge rolling, targetted aoe, the targetted lightning spell. I wouldn't call it action combat and that's fine I like the basis of it. I think they should just stick with what it is- tab targetted with some action targettable skills. And the skills themselves are either tab or target. I think them trying to make all skills have an action and tab style just doesn't work. Having like 70% skills being tab and 30% action/targetted is good.
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