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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Nodes Aren't Central Enough - Quests Give Too Much XP
Jerec Tharen
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
After finally having the chance to try out progression in the Alpha, I feel like it was always more efficient to quest, rather than to try to develop a Node. It honestly hardly felt like Nodes didn't matter too much besides being places to vendor off shards and refine materials so you wouldn't loose them.
As a disclaimer, I realize that this was not a content test, and that all of this is subject to change. I just want to make some suggestions that will hopefully influence future tests, even if it is just Alpha-2.
To me, the innovative feature that is going to make or break Ashes of Creation, is how Nodes help set up a common community, and how they drive content in the game. Specifically, players being able to build up Nodes that interest them, and then being rewarded with new quests, monsters, and places to explore. What is missing from the current Alpha are specifically these points:
1) All Node progression seems to be locked when a Node reaches village stage (may be a bug and that's okay)
2) Quests give the majority of early game XP and tend to drive players to certain areas, that end up deciding which Nodes are leveled first.
3) Because quests give the most XP, there is little reason to do anything other than running around the world doing them.
4) The northern Nodes that progress don't seem to provide any new content (probably just part of this test not being a content test and that is okay)
Now that I've laid out what I think is the issues are, let me provide suggestions that may help with them:
1) It should probably be made more clear what the zone of influence is that is locking out other Nodes from progressing. Is it really just village stage that sets the world as it is, or are the crossroads and encampments contributing too. I do realize that the zone of influence for a Node is larger than it will be in the real game, but I just feel like players never really had a chance to choose which Nodes to develop. Perhaps Node XP needs to be slowed down some.
2) The questing in the game is really fun, and I don't want to detract from that experience really, but if quests are the highlight of the game, it's going to fail. There are other games out there with more established lore behind them that just can't be competed with. However, there definitely is a place for them in this game, they just shouldn't give as much XP as they do. If that was reduced, and then monster XP increased to replace it, that would free players to grind up the Nodes they are interested in. Quests could still contribute by giving good gear upgrades (like they already do) and so players could split their time between finding really cool zones to grind in and then do quests when they reach the level needed for them as the reward for progressing that far.
3) Following along that previous thought, the dungeons, as they currently exist, aren't really worth doing. Again, there is probably more content in the works for them, but the XP they give need to be raised. They also need to at least have 1 boss in them that drops something useful for players. Perhaps even just really valuable vendor loot, or low grade equipment. You want to make sure players have a reason to go out and explore, group up, and kill difficult enemies. It will be an easy way to break up solo grinding and encourage the community that will be so important for this games success. I badly want a reason to explore the dungeons in the game and to kill some of the corrupted mini-bosses I found around the world.
4) I think there is more content planned for the Northern Nodes. Although I never had the chance to experience it, I heard that Winstead had a quest-line that unlocked when it became a village. It's likely that there is just the same kind of thing in the works for the other Nodes and it has not been implemented yet. While new quests are cool though, I would really like to see some worthwhile bosses, or even mini-bosses unlocked too. Especially at cross-roads and encampment stages. This could be something you push off to other Node stages later in the development of the game, but I think it would be really useful to make this feature clear in the current stage of the game so we can begin testing it now.
In summary, quests give too much experience, and monsters need to give more so that players can have the opportunity to dwell in certain regions of the game. If anyone else has any thoughts about this, please put them down below!
P.S. I guess that one excuse that could be given for the amount of XP quests give, is to provide an easy path to help players progress through levels as fast as possible so they can participate in testing of higher-end content. My recommendation then, would be to disproportionately increase the amount of XP mini-bosses give (something that could be solo'd easily perhaps) and then there would still be that path. Honestly, the questing is fun enough that I found myself going back to earlier quests I skipped at high level to do them, so I don't think you have to worry about players skipping them and not coming back to test them later.
As a disclaimer, I realize that this was not a content test, and that all of this is subject to change. I just want to make some suggestions that will hopefully influence future tests, even if it is just Alpha-2.
To me, the innovative feature that is going to make or break Ashes of Creation, is how Nodes help set up a common community, and how they drive content in the game. Specifically, players being able to build up Nodes that interest them, and then being rewarded with new quests, monsters, and places to explore. What is missing from the current Alpha are specifically these points:
1) All Node progression seems to be locked when a Node reaches village stage (may be a bug and that's okay)
2) Quests give the majority of early game XP and tend to drive players to certain areas, that end up deciding which Nodes are leveled first.
3) Because quests give the most XP, there is little reason to do anything other than running around the world doing them.
4) The northern Nodes that progress don't seem to provide any new content (probably just part of this test not being a content test and that is okay)
Now that I've laid out what I think is the issues are, let me provide suggestions that may help with them:
1) It should probably be made more clear what the zone of influence is that is locking out other Nodes from progressing. Is it really just village stage that sets the world as it is, or are the crossroads and encampments contributing too. I do realize that the zone of influence for a Node is larger than it will be in the real game, but I just feel like players never really had a chance to choose which Nodes to develop. Perhaps Node XP needs to be slowed down some.
2) The questing in the game is really fun, and I don't want to detract from that experience really, but if quests are the highlight of the game, it's going to fail. There are other games out there with more established lore behind them that just can't be competed with. However, there definitely is a place for them in this game, they just shouldn't give as much XP as they do. If that was reduced, and then monster XP increased to replace it, that would free players to grind up the Nodes they are interested in. Quests could still contribute by giving good gear upgrades (like they already do) and so players could split their time between finding really cool zones to grind in and then do quests when they reach the level needed for them as the reward for progressing that far.
3) Following along that previous thought, the dungeons, as they currently exist, aren't really worth doing. Again, there is probably more content in the works for them, but the XP they give need to be raised. They also need to at least have 1 boss in them that drops something useful for players. Perhaps even just really valuable vendor loot, or low grade equipment. You want to make sure players have a reason to go out and explore, group up, and kill difficult enemies. It will be an easy way to break up solo grinding and encourage the community that will be so important for this games success. I badly want a reason to explore the dungeons in the game and to kill some of the corrupted mini-bosses I found around the world.
4) I think there is more content planned for the Northern Nodes. Although I never had the chance to experience it, I heard that Winstead had a quest-line that unlocked when it became a village. It's likely that there is just the same kind of thing in the works for the other Nodes and it has not been implemented yet. While new quests are cool though, I would really like to see some worthwhile bosses, or even mini-bosses unlocked too. Especially at cross-roads and encampment stages. This could be something you push off to other Node stages later in the development of the game, but I think it would be really useful to make this feature clear in the current stage of the game so we can begin testing it now.
In summary, quests give too much experience, and monsters need to give more so that players can have the opportunity to dwell in certain regions of the game. If anyone else has any thoughts about this, please put them down below!
P.S. I guess that one excuse that could be given for the amount of XP quests give, is to provide an easy path to help players progress through levels as fast as possible so they can participate in testing of higher-end content. My recommendation then, would be to disproportionately increase the amount of XP mini-bosses give (something that could be solo'd easily perhaps) and then there would still be that path. Honestly, the questing is fun enough that I found myself going back to earlier quests I skipped at high level to do them, so I don't think you have to worry about players skipping them and not coming back to test them later.
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Comments
not all, only "vassal"
when a node grew village and higher, its Zone Of Influence (ZOI) grow also, and node in it become "vassal" they are blocked to 1 tier under teir master node.
All excess of XP they earn goes to their master node. (helping it to go to a bigger tier, then, themselves can grow 1 tier bigger, etc)
So when winstead reach village, the 2 other close to it are blocked T2 : camp, untill winstead goes "town".
It was already stated that in release, the nodes that will grow faster and bigger will be those close to the different starting areas. And not because "devs decide it" but because us, as player will do this instinctively (why doing large travel and so get slower to leveling and get node bonus where there is one near your spawn ? )
but, while game will run, there is different mechanic that will make guild change place, try to settle in quite empty area. and then will comes guild wars, node siege, etc.
I see only one other way : the grindfest... and we will have to do grinding in the end don't worry.
Quests doesnt exist for "lore" or "story" it exist also for what they are : give player a clear thing to do, and get reward.
in pen&paper RPG or even solo RPG, any campaign can have side quests, many of them are just "please, kill those trolls who attack our village each month" no lore, no story, except "this village is attacked frequently by trolls"
It is funnier to level thru quests than brainless mob bashing...
First : this map is specific to alpha1, the final game will have one totally different, with far more node.
Each node will have their own content bind to it (quest, event, dungeon, etc, etc)
the "northern node" didn't reach village because while people focus to have asap winstead a village to get mount, all other are just "content" the test was 5 days long, just leveling is estimated to need 225h of activ gametime (45 days with 4-6h a day) in such gametime for all players, even the map we have now would be clearly different, with probably winstead being town, and so maybe the its 2 vassal being village, seeing a village in north. etc.
Just, let's see alpha1 map (if not any "node reset") in the end august 13th
I realize this is how it works. My point was that it wasn't made clear through the UI, and that should be one of the next items they focus on (in addition to the other points I made).
On Resna, Winstead was an encampment, but Mistmire next to it never had a chance to level up, and it was unclear to some players whether that was a bug, or because Drythorn was already a crossroads. I bet they got a lot of unnecessary bug reports because of it.
I specifically said:
I understand that the Nodes near the starting area will be developed first, but you hardly see Mistmire, or Drythorn leveled up. That is because most quests are in Winstead and Na'ala, so those are generally the first villages. If quest XP was reduced, large groups of players would have time to progress others Nodes in the Alpha so we could test more content since Node Sieges aren't in the game yet (and I think the other suggestions I made should be prioritized over Node Sieges since we can test castle sieges now).
Quests often result in just grinding anyways. Kill X number of monsters to receive Y reward. It is the reward part of grinding that makes it feel rewarding. I am advocating for monster XP to be increased so that grinding is more rewarding by having it be the main means of Node progression. If the progression was slowed too, then it would make getting a lot of people to grind in one area the best way to claim an area for your own. You could even have large PvP battles as guilds kill their neighbors to keep them from grinding and progressing their Node above yours.
There just wasn't time in the Alpha to experience anything like this, after the first few hours, Nodes were pretty much leveled up as far as they could go.
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying in the quote you were addressing. I realize that not all the content is in the game and that the map will be bigger. That was what I was saying. Na'ala was leved up to village on Resna, but we never saw any new content unlocked. I was trying to say that I recommend they prioritize getting some created so it is worth leveling something other than the 3 starter zone Nodes. Here is my point about this again:
The OP is a pretty decent run down of the obstacles we've faced.
Quests are supposed to give the most xp. Questing is intended to alleviate the grind of just killing mobs.
If we didn't have so many broken quests, they would be sufficient for Alpha One. We should be killing mobs if they cause some threat; not because they are just standing around waiting to be killed.
Especially for the Alpha, it's much better if we are incentivized to move around the entire map, rather than just stay in one place.
I think I get where you are coming from. Grinding can suck in a lot of games. It gets repetitive and boring fast. I think Ashes will have some features that spice it up though. The open world PvP for one thing. If you are constantly worried about others attacking you, the best route back to a friendly Node to sell your loot, whether your guild is at war, and helping allies in the area, that can do a lot to break up the grind. If they make grinding the only reliable way to build up a Node, that will also help motivate players to grind, and I think that could help too.
As far as exploration goes, quests aren't really the best for it. I did a lot of the quests in the Alpha, and I fee like I barely know the Drythorn, Elyon, and Edgepoint regions because there just wasn't anything to do in those regions really. Whereas Winstead, Na'ala, and perhaps Illwind I feel like I know pretty well. As a counter-point to that though, imagine that you are grinding a region and find a mini-boss that provides a bit more XP than you were getting before. Wouldn't that incentivize you to search for more of them? You could spend a bunch of time scouring a region for mini-bosses to fight with your friends and/or the local community. That would make exploration much more rewarding. The only way I could see quests doing that is if they added a lot more of them, which they might need to reduce the quality of the quests to do so. I imagine we would get more go kill _ number of enemies - which is just grinding anyways.
Finally, I agree, a lot of quests were broken, and perhaps there were some chains we could not explore because of it (I'm looking at you Jermaine!), but I really don't think it would have made much of a difference for players being able to decide which Nodes are built up, or to carry us to 15, which I think is what you were implying. I'm pretty sure that Intrepid wants us to do some amount of grinding to reach max level in this game. It fits along nicely with older MMO's and even some newer ones like Black Desert.
PvP does not provide xp. Grinding mobs will not be the only way to build up a Node. Nor should it be.
You don't know Drythorn, Elyon, and Edgepoint very well because those areas don't have quests.
The areas I know best are near Winstead and Na'ala... precisely because there a lots of quests there.
Quests need to be plentiful so that the game is not just about killing as much stuff as possible.
We should be getting a decent amount of xp for non-combat activities, like delivering arrows for the Blacksmith, finding the missing soldiers for Corporal Culhum, discovering coordinates with the Astrolabe and gathering up the scattered pages for The Draft. In addition to combating the Goblins and the Trolls s we try to rescue Brinda.
The reason to go find a mini-boss is because the mini-boss is causing some kind of threat to the region. And that threat should be considerable enough that several NPCs are asking for relief. The xp for the kill is really more of a bonus. Where the Winter Dragon is causing a perpetual winter that is negatively impacting the region, I should care more about ending the perpetual winter than I do about the xp.
But, killing stuff should not be the primary way I gain xp as an adventurer... especially not as an explorer.
For more context:
My Bartle score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%.
I'm a pacifist carebear so, no, killing stuff is not going to be the incentive that motivates me to explore.
Killing stuff does not make exploration rewarding.
I think even with all the quests working, we can't reach Level 15 in the Alpha without some grinding.
Of course, at launch, it should be possible to reach max Level in Adventurer without killing anything.
So, space wise, the dynamics would be pretty different.
That said I agree that, right now, things are a little odd, so I completely support the sentiment that this should change eventually. I don't like the fact that quests give more exp either because it means that quest content locked behind node progression might cause snowballing, which I think is your point.
That said, though, if you're pretty focused you can solo enemies that give 400+ exp per kill in around 2 minutes each (on Cleric, against favored matchups like Crabs and Spiders), so while questing is better than grinding when the travel isn't too long and the rewards are like, 15000 XP, I regularly skip even the 4k XP stuff once I have enough abilities to just swat things for (max) 12k XP/hr. It's more of a 'ok I'm tired of grinding Spiders solo now, let's go change-of-pace this'.
Yes, you are right. I was trying to highlight though that essentially you kill things for quests and grinding, and that perhaps raising a Node would be the context that helps alleviate the monotony. I guess I am open to other things helping progress a Node, perhaps there is a specific quest line that needs to be completed per Node before it can be progressed to a certain point. You thought about quests to help protect NPC's has merit though. Perhaps there can be high level mobs or mini-bosses on the road between zones that keep killing players, and perhaps people group up to kill those monsters. The whole point of a sandbox MMO experience (which I realize Ashes is going for a combined sandbox and structured feel, I'm just trying to point out how sandbox elements would contribute here) is to make it so that players feel like they are making the decisions in the world, not the NPC's, and that kind of non-NPC given quest experience would help that.
I'm curious whether or not you have have played games like EVE Online, Albion Online, or other games like it. Players have tons of fun not doing quests and deciding for themselves what they are going to do. It seems like you are wanting a game that gives you a set path of quests to follow all the way to the end, and I just don't think that this is going to be like that.
Okay, so the fact that you say this . . . I'm not sure what to say. There is going to be tons of PvP everywhere. You can definitely have fun playing this game, but I recommend adjusting your perspective a bit. I'm pretty sure that it is intended for players to have to grind at some point. Even classic world of warcraft had that, and that's a game that popularized the theme park experience.
Leveling in Ashes is supposed to take months for some people, which I'm sure means that questing is going to be limited. No one could reasonably make an engaging questing system that lasts that long. It would be prohibitively expensive to do so. I guarantee that there is going to be quite a bit of grinding.
Yes, you are entirely right about that. I was aware of the space aspect, but hadn't put too much thought into it when I made my original argument. I feel like this would only further contribute to my argument making it even more difficult to level a Node that is not near a questing hub. Truly quest XP should be nerfed and Node progression slowed.
Yes, there is definitely some efficient farms out there. Let me ask you this though, when did you start to feel comfortable going after one of them? Was it in the first few hours when Nodes were still leveling up?
I don't think they should get rid of any of the quests. I think they should add more like them. Please though, please just make them worth very little XP, but provide some decent gear! That way, players still have a motivation to go after them as ways to break up the grind, but grinding can still reign king for XP gain and progressing a region/Node.
Elite Dangerous has 'missions' that you can complete for your chosen 'Minor Faction', and a whole separate system where you 'support a Superpower', and both of these dynamically change the human-inhabited small subsection of the galaxy, but being a pure trader or explorer and 'never having to shoot anyone' is a different form of grinding.
Maybe Ashes will have builds and Augments whose actual bonuses revolve around travel, escaping, gathering, and support of combat-parallel objectives. The question would be if 'gathering in dangerous areas and contributing to node building' is going to have exp gains that are similar to killing things.
I don't think it would be terrible, presuming it's not so much less challenging as to lead to players optimizing by doing only that.
My group tries to level Moonhollow node every single test, we just do the absolute starter stuff, go straight to Moonhollow, and grind, most of the time, and wait for the eventual news of Winstead or Na'ala leveling.
If we're lucky, Elyon levels and we can get mounts.
So I guess the answer is 'the whole time' (I personally have a strong 'resistance to boredom' in the Grinding sense, and only slowed down in the last few tests because of a bug causing random deaths in my Crab grind spot)
Again, the whole point of quests is that they provide more xp than grinding mobs.
That being said, there are currently some quests in the Alpha One that only reward 10xp.
I have a lot of other concerns about progression paths and what can be lost and gained in Ashes, but I don't care if quests grant zero XP across the board because, again, FFXI. Maybe 1% of quests in that game, if even that, gave you an item you could use to receive a little XP.
That said, also don't care if they grant decent XP. I'm way more 'worried' about the disparity between gear-gain content and 'reputation'-gain content. Level-gain content is like, fifth on my worries list, design wise.
Isn't this kind of proving that quest are good for exploration as those breadcrumbs are what can lead you to off road areas?
I'm not saying the game has to hold your hand to every single corner of the map but if you meander off the beaten path a bit you should stumble on a small quest chain that helps develop the world a bit more and takes you further into the outer limits of it.
On top of that having grinding mobs be anywhere near as effective as questing for XP is going to lead to brokenly fast leveling b/c mob grinding is far more susceptible to being exploited than quest are.
No you are completely right about that. I guess quests aren't bad for exploration, you've changed my mind on that. Gathering is pretty good for exploring too, now that I think on it. Grinding could give a good sense of exploration too though. I remember scouring the map for a certain type of mob that I wanted to exploit and grind and I got to know a couple of areas pretty well because of it. I think that style of gameplay would complement the PvP aspect really well.
I also still feel though that the game needs a sandbox sense of ownership over an area, where players decide it's fate through exploiting game mechanics, and not because some NPC says you made a difference. Nodes are designed to give that yes, but if it's only doing quests for NPC's that decide that a region should be built up, I don't know. The presence of quests in an area dictating that it may be built up, that just seems to take too much player choice out.
As far as fast leveling, I see that as expanding the length of leveling instead of decreasing it, since you would need to take breaks to do quests to get gear, turn in your gathered goods, engage in PvP, etc. I guess you would have some of that in a quest driven system too, but my point is that leveling speed for a character isn't really an issue to me right now and that both can be balanced for speed.
As far as exploits go, there are multiple quests in the game that all you need to do is either talk to someone, or run around a series of points. If that isn't something that can be exploited, I don't know what can be. Questing can be just as vulnerable as mob grinding. At least with mob grinding, the solution would be to add some mob mechanics, which would not only spice up the fight and make it more interesting, but also harder to script out.
Not sure where you got the FPS idea from . . . Is it the action combat? That's a separate thing kind of outside this discussion.
As far as the whole point of quests, I think they can be anything they need to be. Those 10XP quests you mention I remember. They are some of the starter quests, and they don't reward much because they are introducing game mechanics and NPC's that start quest chains. I'm not saying those quests are bad, I like them as they are.
The quests, to kill epic bosses are great, let's just nuke the XP they give, and transfer that over to the boss. That way killing the boss actually gives XP, while the quest is just the monetary reward. That would make it more realistic too since the actual hard part gives experience, while being contracted for a job rewards physical goods.
Unless a quest allows for consecutive turn ins (which should never really be the case) it's not really exploitable.
However this is far, far, harder to just patch up. Unless the game is utterly broken from top to bottom I can't see any way for questing to ever be remotely near as open to exploits as grinding mobs are.
As a clarification when I said level fast I meant in comparison to questing. The intended leveling time is irrelevant to the comparison between questing and grinding.
I do like how the quest line leads into other quest lines instead of ending sharply. I think Jerec said it best. the monsters that you need to kill to complete the quests should give the XP while the quest gives the reward in gear and gold. Better yet, the bosses should not give gear out, but craftable components. that way to get the best gear multiple boss sessions are required to get the better gear along with high level skills to forge/sew the gear together.
Yeah, those that give 10xp do so because you basically don't do anything. We get 10xp for flipping through a book that is right next to the quest giver. There isn't any exploration at all for that quest.
And...that is for the Alpha One. I don't necessarily expect those to remain for Launch.
We should need a quest to kill an epic boss. Again, the primary reason to kill the Winter Dragon is because it's causing a perpetual winter which prevents the resources we need from being available. NPCs should also be asking for quests related to that, sure, because the perpetual winter is also making life difficult for them, but sure, the bulk of the xp for killing the boss could come the boss not a quest.
But, quests are designed to send you around an area and provide local lore and bring the world alive besides just killing everything in sight. It's an RPG. Adventuring for a Bard should be about more than just killing everything she can find simply because everything she can find is just standing around waiting to be killed. An RPG should not be designed like a shooter.
And it's the quests that help focus players on killing specific mobs due to quest givers have a specific need.
Rangers should be gaining xp by protecting and healing the animals of a region; not primarily from killing animals. And, Rangers shouldn't really be motivated primarily by material greed.
Intrepid is mostly comprised of former Everquest devs, so it's highly unlikely they will change their philosophy on quest design.
What stops you from just killing the boss over and over again just to take advantage for large chunks of xp?
This is kind of what I mean by mobs are easily exploitable. Devs need a non-repeatable flag to give us XP and the end of the quest is by far the easiest and most reliable place to put that.