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PvP/Ganker-(Protection)?

DioniahsDioniahs Member
edited July 21 in General Discussion
At the risk of sounding like a thousand times before - please forgive me!

I am very interested in this game and my guild is already on pins and needles. However, we also have - including me - a very high proportion of PvE members, so quite balanced compared to the PvP part. What about functions, regarding gankers or players who want to farm you completely? Now this is not hyperbole - we all know exactly how selfish, sadistic and misanthropic these PvP players can be. :p

Steven has often emphasised that he will take precautions against this, but so far we have only seen the issue with red players and purple players, right? Do you think there will be something else or is that enough? I have heard from many PvP players so far that this status is actually of little interest to them. We are in alliance with a few guilds, including quite a few PvP players, and we have received similar feedback.


I am looking forward to your feedback! Thank you very much! =)
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Comments

  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    The system has worked in another mmo since 2003.

    There wont be random killing/gamging.
    It is too painful for people to kill peaceful players.
    You might die to a random player, without fighting back, once a month or two.

    If you are not interested in fighting other players dont expect to PvE in prime locations.

    The focus of the game is open world pve and pvp.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dioniahs wrote: »
    At the risk of sounding like a thousand times before - please forgive me!

    I am very interested in this game and my guild is already on pins and needles. However, we also have - including me - a very high proportion of PvE members, so quite balanced compared to the PvP part. What about functions, regarding gankers or players who want to farm you completely? Now this is not hyperbole - we all know exactly how selfish, sadistic and misanthropic these PvP players can be. :p

    Steven has often emphasised that he will take precautions against this, but so far we have only seen the issue with red players and purple players, right? Do you think there will be something else or is that enough? I have heard from many PvP players so far that this status is actually of little interest to them. We are in alliance with a few guilds, including quite a few PvP players, and we have received similar feedback.


    I am looking forward to your feedback! Thank you very much! =)

    There currently isn't anything to stop the type of player you are talking about. I know the type you mean. As long as you've actually clearly read all of the measures in place, you're as up to date as it gets.

    Basically, even though the wiki is out of date, this is one of the places where there isn't a whole lot of 'stuff that has been said or hinted at' which needs to be added to the wiki, according to what I've watched from the Ashes content sources/streams/channels, and I watch basically everything.

    You can hope that the thrill-seekers can get their dopamine hit through combat with stronger opponents, or you can band together more strongly using one or two of the game mechanics and hope that the potential for loss of gear, or just 'being so weakened in PvP that they can no longer actually win the fight', handles the problem.

    But obviously as many of us have experienced, doing that requires 'letting the ganker kill you multiple times'.

    I'm pretty certain there will also be people whose entire 'fun' will be 'how many peaceful players can I manage to kill with dampened stats?' so pure PvE players will be at disadvantage if they don't even try to fight back against players who are already red (and take the chance that the player is one of those people).

    Other than that, all you can do is hope that the difference between the sort of player that does this in Black Desert and Ashes will be that the ones in Ashes don't want to lose gear when they die. If they work around that, then as of now, there is nothing else that I've seen anywhere.

    Oh, and no, I know better than to think this will be enough to prevent 'people farming you completely'. You have to decide for yourself, how much of that is acceptable in a game, for you, and hope Ashes hits that mark. If the player's choice is 'I don't want to ever be farmed by someone for fun', Ashes is probably not a suitable game.
  • veyrahveyrah Member
    Not all PVP players will be ganking. I hereby present myself as hirable caravan guard. I will protect your endeavours from pesky gankers, for the right price
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Dioniahs There will absolutely be random ganking going on. There are already guilds in alpha that have dedicated themselves to being purely for pvp (they aren't very big but it would be ridiculous to think that there won't be big pvp only guilds). You simply cannot be a pve only player in ashes. I am a PvE player at heart and can honestly say I don't think PvE is a primary focus in AoC. It doesn't feel this way at all so far but hopefully this will change.

    @George Black You will not be enjoying your time in Verra if you really think people won't be killed randomly for their loot or simply just because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I won't be killing players lower lvl than me but if someone is not a local citizen, same level or above and may have loot, I will be all over them and my allies will not be far behind.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    @Dioniahs, If you haven't had a chance to review Ashes 101 put together by Jahlon, I'd suggest taking some time to go through the information he's collected. His 101 series on PVP and Corruption is relevant for your questions above.
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  • ShinozukaShinozuka Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 21
    Dioniahs wrote: »
    At the risk of sounding like a thousand times before - please forgive me!

    I am very interested in this game and my guild is already on pins and needles. However, we also have - including me - a very high proportion of PvE members, so quite balanced compared to the PvP part. What about functions, regarding gankers or players who want to farm you completely? Now this is not hyperbole - we all know exactly how selfish, sadistic and misanthropic these PvP players can be. :p

    Steven has often emphasised that he will take precautions against this, but so far we have only seen the issue with red players and purple players, right? Do you think there will be something else or is that enough? I have heard from many PvP players so far that this status is actually of little interest to them. We are in alliance with a few guilds, including quite a few PvP players, and we have received similar feedback.


    I am looking forward to your feedback! Thank you very much! =)

    I am in the same boat as some of your guildies . I love everything about this game, except I dislike forced PvP. I do not mind occasional PvP. But the idea of being out gathering for 2 hours and some one killing me for kicks irks me. I have dealt with griefers in games and I disliked it much.

    I am currently playing the New World Beta. Mainly because I ordered it years ago when it was briefly listed as free (I gather that was a mistake by Amazon, but they honored those orders) . Anyway in the forums there are SO MANY people asking for PvP servers Because that game have a flag system. People are wanting open world PvP. I put my 2 cents in there that I support having PvP , PvE and RP servers in any game .
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 21
    Dioniahs wrote: »
    I am very interested in this game and my guild is already on pins and needles. However, we also have - including me - a very high proportion of PvE members, so quite balanced compared to the PvP part. What about functions, regarding gankers or players who want to farm you completely? Now this is not hyperbole - we all know exactly how selfish, sadistic and misanthropic these PvP players can be. :p
    Shinozuka wrote: »
    I am in the same boat as some of your guildies . I love everything about this game, except I dislike forced PvP. I do not mind occasional PvP. But the idea of being out gathering for 2 hours and some one killing me for kicks irks me. I have dealt with griefers in games and I disliked it much.

    This is not meant to discourage you guys at all, it's just to set expectations. :)
    1. Ashes of Creation will to a large extent be a "big fish eats small fish" game, when it comes to nodes and world bosses etc. There are going to be a lot of "might makes right" actions and politics going on.
    2. You are going to get killed and looted once in a while. It will happen. It might not even be another player that kills you, you can die to a mob while gathering, and another player loots your corpse right after.
    3. If open world PK'ing is rampant, the corruption system isn't harsh enough and needs tweaking. Hopefully we get that sorted out before release. However, there are two other major ways to be killed by other players that you might not have a choice in, and that is guild and node wars. Players don't get any corruption for killing you during those, so expect even more deaths.

    You can absolutely mitigate a lot of this.
    1. Don't be the smallest fish in the pond. Your guild needs to make alliances with other guilds. You need to actively help each other both within the guild and within the alliance. Be on good terms with other people in the node and help each other.
    2. Never carry anything you cannot afford to lose. Make trips to drop off gathered loot often, especially if you get some of the rare stuff. This is a really important point actually.
    3. If you have to transport a lot of goods, gather as many allies as you can. Help allies when they need goods transported.

    In the end it's mindset thing. :smile: Expect loss and things sometimes being unfair. Other times you might hit the jackpot and loot the enemies. Some people learn to accept or even love it, and others simply cannot. The upside is, it's only $15 for a month at release to try it out and see if you and your guildies can adjust and adapt.
  • Suggestions with respect to those in fear of ganking.

    Make friends and play with friends.

    Maybe try your hand at bounty hunting. If not for the PVP aspects, just to make those PKers stand out where you know where they are (I.e. situational awareness). I believe PKers can kill bounty hunters without gaining corruption. Keep that in mind.

    Combine make friends and bounty hunting so that when others get ganked you can all jump in to help.

    Be aware, however, you will still get ganked.

    The corruption system is really the Plan B part. You need to be more proactive with the Plan A parts above if occasional ganking is too much for you. For most they will accept the occasional ganking and press on.
  • veyrahveyrah Member
    edited July 21
    This can also benefit traders btw. The more risky routes will be more profitable to partake. If you have the right tactics or can group up, you can get a lot of money for the effort. The risk of PVP makes things more exciting and also makes the economy more complex and interesting.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Corruption is Plan A.
    And if Plan A does not work sufficiently, PvEers just won't play.
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Corruption is Plan A.
    And if Plan A does not work sufficiently, PvEers just won't play.

    the plan A is far from perfect : you have to let him kill you (not try to defend yourself)
    i would prefer that instead of all corruption coming from killing a green player, part is from attacking him, and part from killing him. Or at least, the player swich red (with 0 corruption point, so not yet the big malus from corruption on death) so the green one can defend himself without turning purple.

    But the plan B ... it is not really an advice, it is close to "how to play a game designed like AoC" not only for this open world PvE but if devs manage to reach what they says in all part, you will mostly play in guild and with guild.


    Also, you can't come in AoC thinking being just PvE-boy. dygz say that if corruption is not efficient enough, PvE-boys won't play, i think, a real pve-boy (a guy who dislike PvP or have big fear of it) won't be able to play AoC at all.


    some of my friends will maybe follow me in the end, but i will be first to be sure they understand about the open world pvp "really open" because they are clearly PvE side of MMORPG ^^' avoiding PvP as much as possible
  • Yeah, if players are not taking proactive steps to protect themselves from PK activity then they are relying solely on the passive corruption system. I just happen to believe the layered approach is much more practical.

    And the words “You will get ganked” should be clearly presented on the registration form and order form for this game. Possibly even the log in screen. Anyone after all of that demanding special treatment probably should have never signed up.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 21
    I won't be playing Ashes if I have to rely on RocketFarmer's advice as Plan A.
    If Corruption is not a sufficient deterrent, then the devs will have failed their design and RocketFarmer's advice will be moot.
    And, I'm pretty sure that is true for a whole lot of other PvEers.

    Siege is great, by the way.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    I won't be playing Ashes if I have to rely on RocketFarmer's advice as Plan A.

    Same, and both of us have lifetime subs. :s
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  • I think the corruption system will be a deterrent to some degree. They have to dial it in to get what a consensus may find acceptable, and I am sure Steven’s opinion has greater weight in that consensus calculation. That of course will have to be tested and will evolve.

    Since ganking tolerance is subjective, however, I don’t think they can please everyone. Some players will quit. Some have zero tolerance for PK, and to be fair to Intrepid and the rest of the player community it may be better for those players to move on to another game now. There is probably a group of traditional PVE players taking a wait and see approach. I would say the same is true for those who lean more exclusively toward solo play. I think there are a lot of players who normally do Solo PVE. The deck is stacked against those folks.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think the corruption system will be a deterrent to some degree. They have to dial it in to get what a consensus may find acceptable, and I am sure Steven’s opinion has greater weight in that consensus calculation. That of course will have to be tested and will evolve.

    Since ganking tolerance is subjective, however, I don’t think they can please everyone. Some players will quit. Some have zero tolerance for PK, and to be fair to Intrepid and the rest of the player community it may be better for those players to move on to another game now. There is probably a group of traditional PVE players taking a wait and see approach. I would say the same is true for those who lean more exclusively toward solo play. I think there are a lot of players who normally do Solo PVE. The deck is stacked against those folks.

    I'm absolutely most worried for explorers because they're exactly the demographic that gets jumped. Not when they're far out in the world, necessarily, either. They're the type that keep trying to get to wherever they are going, and use skills to avoid enemies, travel through areas where they aren't known or aren't part of the 'accepted guilds', and so on.

    Ashes respawn options, even if changed, are going to be rough on those people, because the ganker knows they can get away with it, or want the challenge of having bounty hunters after them, and those players end up just being fodder for the ganker to use specifically to get a smaller amount of Corruption.

    It's one thing to shrug off 'being murdered while tending your farm in Black Desert'. You respawn nearby, lose nothing, run back out, let them kill you a few more times until they get bored and leave, continue with your day.

    It's another thing entirely to be 'trying to get somewhere' but with someone basically going 'you shall not pass' and farming you for fun or practice.
  • Exploration will be high risk. The rewards should be equal to that risk.
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    You are going to get PK'd, one, two, three times... depending on the corruption harshness.
    But honestly I don't think people will be that toxic, I've been in games with less corruption punishment and most just mind their own business.
    If they've seen you harvest half the ore on the valley.. well that's another thing.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'm absolutely most worried for explorers because they're exactly the demographic that gets jumped. Not when they're far out in the world, necessarily, either. They're the type that keep trying to get to wherever they are going, and use skills to avoid enemies, travel through areas where they aren't known or aren't part of the 'accepted guilds', and so on.

    I fit square in that demographic. But I'm not worried, I'm excited. It's risky to go out into the world to find new stuff - I think that's just fine. The balance will be to be aware of what I'm gathering / carrying and determine the benefit of continuing to explore versus making my way back to someplace to drop stuff off. This dynamic is what I've been hoping for in Ashes. ;)

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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I can't imagine anyone with zero tolerance for PK to be still following Ashes.
    Zero tolerance means it's impossible for PK to happen. And anyone who peruses the game design should be able to understand that PK is possible.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ill be alright mate, dont concern yourself
  • DioniahsDioniahs Member
    Thank you all for so much feedback! I hope you are right and the system is fair enough.
    But of course, people should join forces. But always travelling as a group is not the global point. We'll just have to wait and see what time shows us.

    It would be a shame, just because I'm a PvE player at heart, not to be able to experience and enjoy the world of Verra.

    In any case, I look forward to meeting each and every one of you in the game at release. It's a pity that it will take so long - but at least it will be a good game! :smile:
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  • SathragoSathrago Member
    The biggest deterrent that you can achieve to avoid pvp is to join a pvp-savvy guild who want your pve expertise and will protect you when you go out to do whatever valuable thing you do.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 22
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'm absolutely most worried for explorers because they're exactly the demographic that gets jumped. Not when they're far out in the world, necessarily, either. They're the type that keep trying to get to wherever they are going, and use skills to avoid enemies, travel through areas where they aren't known or aren't part of the 'accepted guilds', and so on.

    I fit square in that demographic. But I'm not worried, I'm excited. It's risky to go out into the world to find new stuff - I think that's just fine. The balance will be to be aware of what I'm gathering / carrying and determine the benefit of continuing to explore versus making my way back to someplace to drop stuff off. This dynamic is what I've been hoping for in Ashes. ;)

    Given your desires, I don't doubt you'll be fine, but I'm definitely not talking about 'what you're gathering'. I'm talking about 'a trio of people who notice an unfamiliar name trying to find a way up/over a mountain, wait for you to slip on a jump, and kill you for the lols, then camp your spawn point to see how much Corruption they need to build before it starts to feel like you can fight back'.

    Explorers, by just the nature of the game (maybe you have a lot of time to play?) don't have gear that is as good, or practice PvP as much.

    So in this case, I'm not worried about 'you', I'm worried about 'mountain cllimbers', let's say.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    So in this case, I'm not worried about 'you', I'm worried about 'mountain cllimbers', let's say.

    Exploration is my #1 interest, hence ‘find new stuff’. I’ll be fine.

    But thank you for worrying about me. 🤗
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  • Surely the easiest way is to have PVP and PVE servers? That keeps both types happy.

    There is one game I play where on the PVE servers, there is still some PVP via two methods:

    1) A player challenges another to a duel, the other player can choose to accept and fight or reject the challenge. If they reject, there is no PVP.
    2) There is a PVP battleground zone-in door, where PVP events happen.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited July 22
    Surely the easiest way is to have PVP and PVE servers? That keeps both types happy.

    There is one game I play where on the PVE servers, there is still some PVP via two methods:

    1) A player challenges another to a duel, the other player can choose to accept and fight or reject the challenge. If they reject, there is no PVP.
    2) There is a PVP battleground zone-in door, where PVP events happen.

    No, the easiest way is to realize that this is one of the most core features of the game and they are not looking to change it.

    Sometimes, a game just isn't for you and that's ok.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 22
    PvX is a core part of the game.
    People keep trying to segrate players in to unneeded niche groups.
    AoC only need players not a bunch of sub sets.
    I agree with George it won't be nearly as bad as some fear/hope.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I really don't see explorers being at risk. Sure, if they also gather a bunch of stuff, but then they fall into the gatherer category.

    You don't go corrupt on another player except for either wanting their loot or they are being douchebags and really just need to be killed. Killing for the lulz simply won't be worth it to all but a very few people.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    I can't imagine anyone with zero tolerance for PK to be still following Ashes.
    Zero tolerance means it's impossible for PK to happen. And anyone who peruses the game design should be able to understand that PK is possible.

    And yet they continue to post on the forums here, insisting that open world PvP needs to be abolished.
    Surely the easiest way is to have PVP and PVE servers? That keeps both types happy.

    There is one game I play where on the PVE servers, there is still some PVP via two methods:

    1) A player challenges another to a duel, the other player can choose to accept and fight or reject the challenge. If they reject, there is no PVP.
    2) There is a PVP battleground zone-in door, where PVP events happen.

    You might as well say that there should be a non-violent server where no combat happens at all (including PvE). PvP is key to the way this game will work and you can't have a PvE server. It won't work.

    I'll say that I've already experienced griefing in Alpha. :( But they turned everyone purple (so it's a PvP free-for-all with no consequences). The griefing I experienced was a high level character repeatedly killing me and camping my spawn as I was trying to test questing. (This by the way is against the rules in the test and I reported them.) I think that this person would not be doing that if corruption was in place.

    Corruption is going to need to be effective for the game to not devolve into a grief-happy hellscape.
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