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Race Representation in a Node's Architecture

VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Like in any other MMO, some races will be more popular than others. In AoC this will have great repercussions because the number of players of a certain race that are active in a node's zone of influence, will determine that node's architectural style. There are also talks from Intrepid that a node of a certain race will give some kind of benefits to players of that same race. Regardless, the issue remains that certain races will be underrepresented and maybe even completely nonexistent. We might never see a Metropolis of some races.

A solution I would like to suggest to this issue would be to give races a bonus to their representation in a node’s architectural style decision based on the region/biome the node is in.

We know that each race has its starting zone and there are certain biomes that “belong” to certain races. So for example let’s say that we have 40 Dunir dwarves working on a node in their foothills in the northwest and 50 Ren’kai orcs are also working on that node, but the Dunir dwarves get a 50% bonus to their racial representation in that region because those foothills “belong” to their race. The 40 Dunir dwarves would now count as 60 Dunir dwarves and they would win the architectural representation over the 50 Ren’kai orcs.

The numbers would obviously need to be tested.

What are your thoughts on this topic or the proposed solution above?
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Comments

  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Don’t like it. Your solution to “maybe we won’t see a metro with X racial aesthetic” is essentially “we will probably only see X racial aesthetic in this region because it has a disadvantage in the other regions”.

    Just leave it alone and keep it totally free-market and unbiased. I guarantee you will see at least one node of each race on a server.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I hope people consider architecture vote when picking their race. I don't like your solution. It soft locks locale to race.

    Better solution IF we even think its a real problem. Let mayors optionally open a democratic vote on what style the node should be.
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  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Cypher wrote: »
    Don’t like it. Your solution to “maybe we won’t see a metro with X racial aesthetic” is essentially “we will probably only see X racial aesthetic in this region because it has a disadvantage in the other regions”.

    Just leave it alone and keep it totally free-market and unbiased. I guarantee you will see at least one node of each race on a server.

    You highly overestimate how many people will pick certain races. Even with this bonus that I'm suggesting, which is subject to change, the most popular races will still take over. For example, in WoW the difference between the most popular race, Blood Elf, and the least popular race, Goblin, is 16% to 3% (didn't include the races that require quests to unlock - allied races). That is a huge difference.

    Yes, I agree that we will see a node of each race, but past a certain node level, some races will get completely obliterated. I am willing to bet that we will see close to 0 metropolis nodes of some of the less popular races.

    Lastly, what is so wrong about races having the majority of node architectures in the regions/biomes that belonged to their ancestors long ago?


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    9 races and 5 Metros.
    It's very likely some servers will have race that never gets a Metro.
    That's one of the great things about Ashes. Servers will be different.
    To regain their ancestral homes, they are going to have to "fight" for it with population.
    That is a key part of Ashes "PvP" conflict.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    9 races and 5 Metros.
    It's very likely some servers will have race that never gets a Metro.
    That's one of the great things about Ashes. Servers will be different.
    To regain their ancestral homes, they are going to have to "fight" for it with population.
    That is a key part of Ashes "PvP" conflict.

    I think that is valid but I also think there is going to be a lot of kaelar players out there that preffer vek and empyrean architecture. A mayoral based democratic vote would fix this potential problem.
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  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It is not a problem it is a feature. One I look forward to.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2021
    I see it as a problem only because of this. Choosing race is a personal identity thing. But if you dislike your races architectural style and move to a node to avoid it, you are now a vote against the very thing you moved there for. Get enough of these people and it could possibly tip the balance to ruin the very thing they moved there for. It's a feature yes. But a mayoral issued democratic vote is a more true 'free market' solution. It doesn't even need to be cost free to issue.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2021
    *meh*
    I am planning to play a Vek that is not a citizen of a Vek Metro.
    You can be a Kaelar and live in a Vek or Empyrean Node if you prefer their architecture.
    I don't understand what is meant by "a vote against the very thing you moved there for".

    Different Mayors in different Node Types will have different governing styles.
    I have a feeling Mayor choosing architectural style is not going to be an option - too challenging to code.
    But... we shall see.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    VmanGman wrote: »
    There are also talks from Intrepid that a node of a certain race will give some kind of benefits to players of that same race.
    When pressed, Steven said that this benefit was going to take the form of an easier version of a quest that all other races still have access to do.

    He did specifically say that players won't have access to anything unique (content, abilities, augments etc) due to racial dominance.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    *meh*
    I am planning to play a Vek that is not a citizen of a Vek Metro.
    You can be a Kaelar and live in a Vek or Empyrean Node if you prefer their architecture.
    I don't understand what is meant by "a vote against the very thing you moved there for".

    Different Mayors in different Node Types will have different governing styles.
    I have a feeling Mayor choosing architectural style is not going to be an option - too challenging to code.
    But... we shall see.

    If you become the citizen of a city your race choice adds to the tally of which racial aesthetic is applied to the city. Meaning your presence increases the chance of the city changing to your aesthetic that you dont prefer.
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  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    While I know this is a different direction than you are going, this made me have the idea that maybe we can have little parts of the metro that become influenced by lesser represented races. Example: the metro is primarily Vek, but a bunch of Tulnar get apartments in the west side of the metro and we end up with Tulnartown in that area. If you want those authentic fried grubs and mushrooms you head down to Tulnartown.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Um. Architectural style is not based on Citizenship - as far as I know.
    My presence does increase the chance of the city's aesthetic changing, so, it might behoove me to be diplomatic enough with racial style I desire to get the result I desire.
    That's what allies are for.
    Choose your friends wisely.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited August 2021
    While I know this is a different direction than you are going, this made me have the idea that maybe we can have little parts of the metro that become influenced by lesser represented races. Example: the metro is primarily Vek, but a bunch of Tulnar get apartments in the west side of the metro and we end up with Tulnartown in that area. If you want those authentic fried grubs and mushrooms you head down to Tulnartown.

    This might be a low key great solution. Instead of the entire town being taken over, We can have districts for various races that are influenced by how many were in the contribution at the time of the zone leveling up.
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  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sathrago wrote: »
    This might be a low key great solution. Instead of the entire town being taken over, We can have districts for various races that are influenced by how many were in the contribution at the time of the zone leveling up.

    I def think there’s something here lol. The node levels up based off all actions within its zone of influence, but some buildings are built when the mayor sanctions a building being made and people donate materials for it. Could definitely leave some room for unique parts/buildings within the metro based off of what races donate the most to particular areas.
  • I like the idea that the race of the people contributing to the node determines the look of the node. As I understand it though it's an all or nothing as of right now. First place determines the entire look of the city with regardless if second place contributed 5% or 49% of the xp.

    With that system I'm a bit worried about the two extremes: the servers most popular race will determine all 5 metros and the servers least popular race won't even get a city. Just do to sheer numbers or lack of numbers.

    I think variety is important. Whether it be racial districts, a soft lock on starting areas, or letting players choose which node theme there quest xp contributes to separate from their character race.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I guess you will just have to play to see for yourself, but...
    Those extremes are highly unlikely. That's not the way the numbers work.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think variety is important. Whether it be racial districts, a soft lock on starting areas, or letting players choose which node theme there quest xp contributes to separate from their character race.

    I think this is good, but if people don't want exactly that, how about one simpler option for those who move to areas where their interest in the architecture is toward the architecture of the area. Just a toggle in either Character Creation or at some specific point that lets you give 'generic' or 'current' node exp?

    e.g. if I live in a Vek node as an Empyrean and I want to 'respect their culture and not change it', then my efforts just go to 'Vek style' because it is a Vek node already. This way, players who just like 'the current look of an area' or are 'wandering drifters with no direct wish for input' can just have 'no effect'.

    This would keep a strong enough incentive for people to play as a race if they wanted the architecture but otherwise didn't care that much (because you need at least some base of that race in the area, probably still quite a few of them) but for those who really want to be a specific race but don't want to interrupt anyone else, they can do this part.

    Could even put it as a toggle or something within the Node once it gets to a certain level.

    Either way, don't Tulnar already have a setup like this? I don't remember there being any plans for Tulnar Architecture, so Tulnar that live above ground might have this effect already?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    9 races and 5 Metros.
    It's very likely some servers will have race that never gets a Metro.
    That's one of the great things about Ashes. Servers will be different.
    To regain their ancestral homes, they are going to have to "fight" for it with population.
    That is a key part of Ashes "PvP" conflict.

    Yes, I am aware that some races won't get a metro because there are 9 races and 5 possible metros, but it goes beyond that. We might literally never see a specific race's metro structures, quests, NPCs etc. in game (across all servers) because there are so few players of that race.
    Dygz wrote: »
    I guess you will just have to play to see for yourself, but...
    Those extremes are highly unlikely. That's not the way the numbers work.

    That is exactly how these numbers work. Technically, since it is all based on percentages, if the races are spread out evenly, you will only see nodes with the most popular race's architecture. Of course that is an extreme example and it won't happen exactly like that, but it strengthens my point that some races might never be represented architecturally past a certain node level. The developers would literally create content that would simply never have the chance to be seen because a metropolis of a less popular race will never exist.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nothing strengthens your point.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    Nothing strengthens your point.

    Yes, it does. The fact that it's all based on percentages and that technically the most popular race could win the percentage fight in determining a node's architecture style for every single node absolutely strengthens my poiint. This clearly shows that it is possible (and highly likely) for some races to never be represented past certain node levels which would mean that some content would never become available.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    9 races and 5 Metros.
    It's very likely some servers will have race that never gets a Metro.
    That's one of the great things about Ashes. Servers will be different.
    To regain their ancestral homes, they are going to have to "fight" for it with population.
    That is a key part of Ashes "PvP" conflict.

    Yes, I am aware that some races won't get a metro because there are 9 races and 5 possible metros, but it goes beyond that. We might literally never see a specific race's metro structures, quests, NPCs etc. in game (across all servers) because there are so few players of that race.
    Dygz wrote: »
    I guess you will just have to play to see for yourself, but...
    Those extremes are highly unlikely. That's not the way the numbers work.

    That is exactly how these numbers work. Technically, since it is all based on percentages, if the races are spread out evenly, you will only see nodes with the most popular race's architecture. Of course that is an extreme example and it won't happen exactly like that, but it strengthens my point that some races might never be represented architecturally past a certain node level. The developers would literally create content that would simply never have the chance to be seen because a metropolis of a less popular race will never exist.

    It's not extreme at all, that's exactly how that works, it's just Search Engine Optimization/YouTube algorithms in 'reverse'.

    Personally I'd bet on never seeing Nikua nodes past stage 3, on at least one server.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • It's not going to happen. I'll assume the nodes will have a base aesthetic but due to the cosmetics you can apply inside of nodes, expect them to look weird, if not completely ridiculous.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Merek wrote: »
    It's not going to happen. I'll assume the nodes will have a base aesthetic but due to the cosmetics you can apply inside of nodes, expect them to look weird, if not completely ridiculous.

    You cannot apply cosmetics to structures inside of nodes. All the structure cosmetics that are for sale are applied to structures on freeholds.
  • Cypher wrote: »
    Don’t like it. Your solution to “maybe we won’t see a metro with X racial aesthetic” is essentially “we will probably only see X racial aesthetic in this region because it has a disadvantage in the other regions”.

    Just leave it alone and keep it totally free-market and unbiased. I guarantee you will see at least one node of each race on a server.

    this is an SJW mindset, they only care about races, and their race in particular.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2021
    Azherae wrote: »
    It's not extreme at all, that's exactly how that works, it's just Search Engine Optimization/YouTube algorithms in 'reverse'.

    Personally I'd bet on never seeing Nikua nodes past stage 3, on at least one server.
    True enough.
    I did generalize "city" to village/town/city.
    It's not an extreme that one race on a server might never get a city.
    That is actually to be expected and is perfectly fine.
    One race never getting a village on a server could potentially be problematic but is highly unlikely.

    Races will not be spread out evenly across the server.
    We will not have the extreme of servers where one race dominates every Node.
  • Depends on how unpopular a race is or how popular another race is. Say Nikua are unpopular and only make up 3% of the server.

    Races won't spread out evenly but they will spread out. All Nikua would have to concentrate all in the same area to get a village. And that's a monumental task to organize. They might have guildmates or friends that don't like Nikua so then their friends are actively working against a Nikua village.

    Then eventually months down the road the starting areas are going to get attacked. And unless the starting areas are completely ignored after that it won't be Nikua anymore because they are spread out and don't have the volume of players necessary to contribute the most to the node.

    Then on the other end of the spectrum. I think it's highly likely that you'll see 2-3 metros of the same race because they just contribute the most because of players.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Let's say the sun explodes tomorrow...
  • I picked 3% because it's the number from the WoW example earlier in the thread. I don't think it is that unreasonable to believe that there is going to be one very unpopular race that is loved by the people who play it but not so much by the general population.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2021
    @Unkempt Foliage

    Blood Elf 15%
    Human 14%
    Night Elf 14%
    Troll 5%
    Zandalari Troll 5%
    Void Elf 5%
    Orc 5%
    Dranei 5%
    Tauren 4%
    Undead 4%

    Those are the top 10 WoW races out of 22 - as of 2019.
    That's about 75% of the WoW population which leaves another 25% to be spread out among the rest.
    I think 3% is not a reasonable percentage if we're comparing WoW and Ashes.

    In Ashes, an even spread would be 11%. And we have 108 Nodes.
    5% population is probably enough for a Village, so... it's unlikely that there will be servers with one race that has no Village.
    And, even if there were, that's OK.
    Every race will have a village somewhere among all the servers.

    For certain, each server will have a race that is least popular. That's OK.
  • edited August 2021
    When I say even spread I don't mean race selection screen, like 11% for each race in your example. I mean that 3-5% for unpopular races are spread out over the 100 nodes. Then 15% popular races are also going to spread out over the 100 nodes.

    So an even spread would be 15% of each node for the popular races and 3-5% for the less popular races. That means in every node they are out numbered and will never see a village of that race.

    Now that's an extreme example and we won't get an even spread in all the nodes. But the longer the server is up the more and more likely unpopular races get wiped village wise.

    You would have make first find enough like minded people, make a race guild, then convince that guild to all work in the same area. Even then it won't be a guarantee if others races move to that area too. And that's a monumental task.

    The question is. Are people okay with that direction or should there be some sort prevention for that.
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