Tank | Damage | Healer trinity and hybrid builds

Just to put a disclaimer. I know classes are not being implemented and we are probably going need to wait for augmentations even longer. That being said, I think it's the opportunity to discuss the combat dynamics before the actual implementation of the classes and augments comes about.

I've already seen people mentioning DPS meters and things like that. Which makes me believe that there is leaning towards strict adherence to the T/D/H design. What concerns me is that very strong commitment to that pillar will manifest as very rigid meta, thus cutting down the already existing weapon variability between classes as well augmentations of the defined arch types.

Given that we did previously observed a problem in some MMO's where certain classes are band aided by providing raid wide buffs for just to warrant a raid spot because they don't stack up in DPS meters due to their increased versatility or survivability. Which generally ends up an ever lasting problem sometimes culminating in utter irrelevance if something else replaces that one utility. Which is when taken really hard by people who invested time in the character or really like the fantasy and the playstyle behind it. After all these are core parts of RPG game as well.

Personally, the current arch type and augmentation system sparks my imagination and interest, because I think it holds a lot of potential. What I worry about is that potential won't be capitalized due to strict adherence and only few highly specialized metrics being crucial to measure players performance and ability to conquer game content and to extent other players.

In example, while speculation, what's the incentive for DPS arch type to pick higher survivability augmentation. Or perhaps use a shield. I don't expect it to be always optimal, but some niche venues would be awesome. And perhaps it would be possible to have a concept of a bruiser or a diver type character in the game?

This is also not helped by DPS meters not tracking HPS saved due to increased raid survivability. So in sense it feels as a losing battle.

What do you think? How much the set up should follow tank n spank routine and what mechanics or combat hazzards could be implemented to promote various types hybrid builds, which do not top the meters but could become crucial to the party composition?

Now I don't say to retire T/D/H, more like, what can be done to accommodate less specialized builds which diversify their power through different dimensions.

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Comments

CROW3

There's a whole megathread on DPS meters here. Tanks will tank, Clerics will heal. There is some cross-ruffing of healing w/Bards and Summoners. But for the most part the other classes are damage w/some support focused. I think we just don't have enough information to know what the specific trinity will look like in Ashes beyond this, but plenty of room for discussion and theories.

For instance, I'm not sure if there will be a viable set of off-tank classes that can soak a few hits (worse than a Tank archetype). That would be helpful to know especially for soloing out in the wilds.

HumblePuffin

I think the party size of 8 will help with this. Sure some people are just gonna wanna 1 tank/1 healer/6 dps everything for “efficiency” but having 8 spots in groups definitely gives you some flex to bring a variety of comps as long as the things die

Dygz

Ashes doesn't support DPS meters, so there is no designing with that in mind.

What we do know is that what defines a Primary Archetype are the active skills.
Augments from the Secondary Archetype, basically, allow the Primary Archetype to add some effects extra effects from a different archetype on top of the Primary Archetype active skills.

So... a Primary Archetype Cleric will always have Hallowed Ground as an Active skill, but a Protector might add a Snare to Hallowed Ground, a Shadow Disciple might add a Bleed to Hallowed Ground...could be that a High Priest might add a Resurrect to Hallowed Ground.

So meta isn't really a thing because it really depends on how each group works off of the specific builds of the specific group. Classes that have Bleed active skills and Bleed augments are going to want to work together.
Wizards are going to want to pay attention to see if they can take advantage of a Hallowed Ground with a Frost augment on it.
It's not about individual DPS, rather it's about paying attention to the others in your group and seeing how you can synergize your actives skills and augments with their active skills and augments.

It's not really about having the most efficient rotation possible, rather it's about knowing how to evaluate and play the room.
In one group it might work well for an Oracle to have Frost damage on their Hallowed Ground and synergize with the Mage to maximize Frost damage. In a different group that has multiple classes with Ranger Secondary Archetypes, that same Oracle might choose to focus on synergizing Frost snares on their Hallowed Ground with the Rangers snares and let the Mage nuke with Fire damage.

Mages are typically a ranged DPS glass cannon.
A Mage who prefers to engage in some melee, instead of always striving to be ranged, might very well choose to be a Spellstone and add augments from the Damage Mitigation School onto their active skills so they can soak hits from the mobs. A Spellstone might prefer to bang on their victims with a mighty Hammer instead of using a Wand.
Could be a great concept for a Ren'Kai Mage.

ViBunja

Currently Clerics will deal the most damage vs big numbers. They are the class you want to kill Zergs or large number of enemies.

Aerlana

CROW3 wrote: »

I think we just don't have enough information to know what the specific trinity will look like in Ashes beyond this, but plenty of room for discussion and theories.

This... even before doing test and analyse data there is the theoric analysis... and we can't do this...

Fighter, mage, rogue, ranger are DPS. two feels more range and 2 more melee.
then... ... that is all we can say... mage better in AOE, dot? ranger in mono ? kite ?
some kind of long list of question there will be.

Clerc will be healer. but what about support kind of bard and sumoner ? Maybe they won't be able to heal at all maybe they can...

And there spoke only about main archetype. will tank augment will add some mitigation ? What will be difference on DPS side between rogue and mage augments ? ...

For now, i think, we can only speculate, make bet... that's all

Dygz

Aerlana wrote: »

Fighter, mage, rogue, ranger are DPS. two feels more range and 2 more melee.

More ranged v More melee
Depends on the specific class chosen and the augment Schools chosen. As well as weapon choice.
Primary Archetype doesn't necessarily tell us much about ranged v melee.

It's always going to be theoretic analysis.
Summoner will be able to heal. An individual Primary Archetype Summoner might choose not to heal.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

Aerlana wrote: »

Summoner will be able to heal. An individual Primary Archetype Summoner might choose not to heal.

they said it ? because saw it nowhere on wiki

Sumoner will be a support class, with pet support, tank, or DPS.
but support is not "healer" in pen&paper RPG, solo RPG, and MMORPG there is many example of support without healing skill/spell.

Dygz

It's not impossible I conflated heal Summons with support Summons.
I can search for the quote, sure.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

It's not impossible I conflated heal Summons with support Summons.
I can search for the quote, sure.

i don't say "sumoner won't heal"
just "as far as i know, nothing sure about bard/sumoner being able to" Due to the fact that "support" is quite large.

don't worry to search. i will see soon enough during alpha 2. And even in alpha2 it will be too soon to do theoric analysis about class (they will get some changes)

McShave

Dygz wrote: »

It's not really about having the most efficient rotation possible, rather it's about knowing how to evaluate and play the room.
In one group it might work well for an Oracle to have Frost damage on their Hallowed Ground and synergize with the Mage to maximize Frost damage. In a different group that has multiple classes with Ranger Secondary Archetypes, that same Oracle might choose to focus on synergizing Frost snares on their Hallowed Ground with the Rangers snares and let the Mage nuke with Fire damage.

I hope to see synergies like this in the game. With the amount of variety that each primary archetype will have, and Ashes meaning to be a build-type game, it would be great if parties can focus their builds around many possible specific choices/ synergies.

As for the tank/ healer/ damage system mentioned in OP, I think it will be much more complex than that. Supports will play a very important role, to the point where you handicap yourself without one. We know that bards will provide movement supports as well as damage boosts and mitigation buffs. I can imagine a good bard and/ or summoner would make the gameplay experience go much more easily and smoothly than without one.

Also we know that Intrepid wants to balance the game around full parties of 8, where there is 1 of each primary archetype. So we can assume, hopefully, that they each will bring something to the group that will be very beneficial.

BlackBrony

You also have to consider that there won't be instances like in other games.
Getting there, getting back and surviving possible attacks during those transitions, matters. A glass cannon DPS sounds great when you have everything under control, but with random variables they aren't as attractive.
A tanky DPS might survive a gank from another guild while still doing respectable damage.

Azherae

Hybrid builds are somewhat needed when enemies have strong defensive/retaliatory mechanics and debilitating auras, and generally sidelined if they don't.

This applies to PvP as well. This is going to be about enemy design, not class design, in the end. If you can 'keep the tank alive' by 'making the enemy dead faster' and doing so does not raise the chance of the tank dying through some other mechanic, then 'highest DD plz' is an optimization no-brainer. Bonus to 'glass cannon' ranged DDs if the tank has strong threat generation from just abilities.

Intrepid's design goals, according to them, are to make varied encounters with lots of mechanics, and to make it so that the 'meta' applies to an enemy or enemy type, even a location, perhaps. I'd worry about this on the PvP side more, but on that end, any 'debilitating auras and retaliatory mechanics' are likely to come from 'less popular classes' and hybrids that 'surprise' the enemy, so as long as the Rock-Paper-Scissors of Mitigation-Attrition-BurstDamage doesn't have any unbalanced parts, you shouldn't need to worry about people choosing based on numbers, more likely based on simplicity or effort.

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