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A different type of tank?

SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited August 2021 in General Discussion
Do you know what sounds fun and very different? Since we currently know very little about the Summoner archetype and how much secondary archetype augments effect the class. I think it would be really cool if the Broodwarden (summoner/tank) was able to tank through summons, by calling various types of brood bugs to engage, slow, or occupy enemies. They could have different bugs with specific roles/abilities to generate threat. (threat generated by any bug increases threat towards all the characters bugs)

I could see it working similarly to this:
All summons are from a target location where the bug breaks through the ground...

Summons:

Shield bug: heavily armored bug that soaks up damage and can be upgraded for other abilities like a shield bash(knockback) on CD.
Recast: he will burrow and reposition and taunt to maintain a bosses attention in a certain spot/direction

Sticky Bug: a bug that burrows beneath the surface and waits, when stepped on explodes leaving a sticky goo to slow enemies in the radius.
Recast: when off cd summons another bug, have a cap off how many can be lying underground at a time.

Ground bug: a stationary bug that spits out smaller bugs to go attack the target. The smaller bugs do minor damage but apply a bleed effect (generating threat towards bugs)
Recast: changes target

Flying bug: A harassing flying bug that spits acid at target. Again does low damage but applies an armor debuff (and generates threat towards bugs)
Recast: changes target

Support bug?: maybe some kind of leech/mosquito that can syphon health from enemies.


Active abilities:
Armor up: forces target brood bug (or next summoned brood bug) to generate hardened carapace for extra armor or hp

Chrysalis: the targeted brood bug turns into a chrysalis freezing all functions (no longer moves/attacks/etc.) gains increased armor and hp regen while frozen

Pheromones': toggle effect draining mana for either a frenzy pheromone or a healing pheromone

Ultimate:
For the swarm: reduces cooldown on summons and temporarily increases summon cap.


Obviously not completely fleshed out, but I could see something like this being a very different style of control tank that could be a blast to play, albeit probably difficult to master. I would feel like a puppet master dictating the control of the battle.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • McShaveMcShave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We know that only primary archetype tanks will be strong enough to tank the toughest opponents, but I do hope secondary archetype tanks will be strong enough to offtank trash mobs and spawning adds.

    My current plan for my class is to have fighter/tank, who can be an offtank for dungeons but be able to PvP effectively (at the same time) for when we run into PvX situations in dungeons or other scenarios. Maybe this can be the same for your summoner/ tank, where your pet can tank some stuff but then also be effective in other situations.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I want smn/tnk to be able to main tank certain 'toughest' enemies because of stronger elm resistance. I want tnk to be best as over all tanking/physical 'toughest'.
    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    McShave wrote: »
    Maybe this can be the same for your summoner/ tank, where your pet can tank some stuff but then also be effective in other situations.

    I guess that's what I'm really hoping for... I really hope there are other play styles for tanking rather than the just main archetype of tank. But I guess we need to see how much secondary archetype augments change the classes...

    I do think the multiple bug swarm would be a new style I haven't seen before.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's very likely that there will be a Threat augment School for Tank.
    And very likely a Damage Mitigation augment School.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    Defender!
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's very likely that there will be a Threat augment School for Tank.
    And very likely a Damage Mitigation augment School.

    What are you basing that off of, or are you just guessing? Because I haven't seen anything with details about secondary augments yet...
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    What 4 schools do you expect will be associated with Tank?
    Most Tank abilities either generate Threat or apply Damage Mitigation or both.
    We have examples Schools from Mage and Cleric.
  • McShaveMcShave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    My guess for the 4 schools is:
    - CC
    - Threat
    - Defense Boost
    - ???

    Maybe increased size for the last one, but that's just a fun idea lol.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mitigation, CC, battlefield control (like there summonable wall effect), status effects like their bleeds...
    I feel like if you had a tree dedicated to threat that you had to use for generating threat it would have to be mandatory otherwise they wouldn't generate enough threat to do their job as the tank. Which I think is why it is rolled into so many of their abilities.

    Which is why I also think threat could be the added effect of a tank secondary archetype the way having a fire effect added for a mage would be...

    But hey, let's say there is a whole tree dedicated to threat... Would could actually be on it? Because I don't know how many skills to add points to could be on in that make sense to me. It sounds like it would get repetitive real fast
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    Why would Threat be mandatory but Damage Mitigation would not be mandatory?

    Threat will likely be an added effect of the Tank Secondary Archetype similar to how Elemental (Fire) is an augment School for the Mage Secondary Archetype.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think the discussion is getting a little confused here.

    A threat school in tank as a PRIMARY wouldn't be that good design wise. There should be abilities that generate additional threat 'and' do something else as a general rule of thumb since that makes for more dynamic and strategic decision making. Maybe 1 purely threat generating skill. But any more than that gets kind of rediculous.

    A threat school to AUGMENTATION should definitely exist. This is because it is part of how you would build off tank with SECONDARY class tank for pve content. Your augment is adding threat ON TOP of what is already happening with the skill normally just like any other mixed use primary tank ability.

    Keep in mind if Ashes has a good threat system damage output and healing will have an effect on enemy's hate. The enmity boosted abilities tank get are the way they go 'look at me first!' To cover for their team doing big skills themselves. A /tnk needs the ability to go 'look at me first/second' as well otherwise their ability to off tank is harshly limited.

    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • Im_MeiIm_Mei Member, Alpha Two
    You will be able to tank through dodging, lifesteal, and some other things i forgot. Not just meatshielding
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hurtmei wrote: »
    You will be able to tank through dodging, lifesteal, and some other things i forgot. Not just meatshielding

    That is what I was trying to get at. Everything for the Tank in game right now is very "meatshield" and I can see some of those others you mentioned being possibilities under different combinations of archetypes. I was saying that mixing summoner and tank could open up a whole style of tank play that I haven't seen used in a game before. It could be a lot more engaging than just having a bear that 'growls' ever few seconds.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Why would Threat be mandatory but Damage Mitigation would not be mandatory?

    Threat will likely be an added effect of the Tank Secondary Archetype similar to how Elemental (Fire) is an augment School for the Mage Secondary Archetype.

    Ok you're talking about it just as a tree for a secondary augment, I'll buy that... I thought you were talking about it for primary tank archetype and that sounded redundant

    Because every tank needs to generate threat to do its job. Like I said, I think that's why 'this ability generates threat' is just built into what they already have...

    But mitigation wouldn't be mandatory, it has been stated there are different kinds of tanking. Think of something like a DK in WoW, minimal mitigation compared to the others because he wants to take damage for bigger selfheals. Or the monks stagger mechanic. Not every tank has/ wants "just take less damage from a hit"

    I guess you would want to scale how much threat you have with tank as a secondary archetype, maybe you just wanted to a beefy fighter/tank... But didn't want to fill the tank role.

    But if the system is set up like that, there really isn't anything stopping them from making it to where X/tanks could fill the tank role in a party. If I'm a summoner or rogue or whatever and I dump all my points into threat and mitigation as well as focus my stats for defense and health... All the tools would be there to be a main tank.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Why would Threat be mandatory but Damage Mitigation would not be mandatory?

    Threat will likely be an added effect of the Tank Secondary Archetype similar to how Elemental (Fire) is an augment School for the Mage Secondary Archetype.

    Ok you're talking about it just as a tree for a secondary augment, I'll buy that... I thought you were talking about it for primary tank archetype and that sounded redundant

    Because every tank needs to generate threat to do its job. Like I said, I think that's why 'this ability generates threat' is just built into what they already have...

    But mitigation wouldn't be mandatory, it has been stated there are different kinds of tanking. Think of something like a DK in WoW, minimal mitigation compared to the others because he wants to take damage for bigger selfheals. Or the monks stagger mechanic. Not every tank has/ wants "just take less damage from a hit"

    I guess you would want to scale how much threat you have with tank as a secondary archetype, maybe you just wanted to a beefy fighter/tank... But didn't want to fill the tank role.

    But if the system is set up like that, there really isn't anything stopping them from making it to where X/tanks could fill the tank role in a party. If I'm a summoner or rogue or whatever and I dump all my points into threat and mitigation as well as focus my stats for defense and health... All the tools would be there to be a main tank.

    Not all. Tank main Archetype mitigation abilities could still significantly surpass all other Archetypes, or something else about their class design might stop them from being as effective.

    Rogues might have most of their big damage abilities based on 'not being directly in front of the enemy' with insufficient ability to generate Threat when tanking.
    Summoners might have no way to absorb Threat from a summon, but not have as many ways as a Tank to have a Summon that can consistently mitigate damage at the same level.
    Apostles are even more complicated, because even if they build exactly like a Tank, they don't have Ultimate Defense (and unlike some other classes, not much like it) and would rely on 'absorbing' Threat whenever the mob hits someone else. I'm personally very familiar with 'the conditions under which tanking like this fails', and they're nontrivial.
    Fighters would probably get the closest, but even they are likely to be 'gap closers' and gap closing moves would probably be balanced by just doing less damage.

    So sure, all the tools would be there to main tank some of the time. If that's all you want, they'd have to work hard to make that terrible.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Not all. Tank main Archetype mitigation abilities could still significantly surpass all other Archetypes, or something else about their class design might stop them from being as effective.

    Rogues might have most of their big damage abilities based on 'not being directly in front of the enemy' with insufficient ability to generate Threat when tanking.
    Summoners might have no way to absorb Threat from a summon, but not have as many ways as a Tank to have a Summon that can consistently mitigate damage at the same level.
    Apostles are even more complicated, because even if they build exactly like a Tank, they don't have Ultimate Defense (and unlike some other classes, not much like it) and would rely on 'absorbing' Threat whenever the mob hits someone else. I'm personally very familiar with 'the conditions under which tanking like this fails', and they're nontrivial.
    Fighters would probably get the closest, but even they are likely to be 'gap closers' and gap closing moves would probably be balanced by just doing less damage.

    So sure, all the tools would be there to main tank some of the time. If that's all you want, they'd have to work hard to make that terrible.

    Ok
    So if you're trying to main tank with rogue/tank, going all in on tank specs, stats, augments etc... It's all possible. Yes they would lose damage output from positional modifiers or whatever, but you're trying to fill the role of tank not damage dealer.
    You wouldn't have the mitigation of heavy armor or shield, but you could lean more into evasion and dodge. Reducing 30% of damage or dodging 30% of hits is the same effect'ish in terms of survivability. Could even add mechanics of extra avoidance after a dodge roll or whatever (kinda of like the dodge effects added in GW2)

    And you're right they would not have "ultimate defense" but could have an ability something like shadowdance instead of shadow stepping around and stabbing a lot as a dps version, it could do way less damage and give them a huge dodge/avoidance buff for the same amount of time as ultimate defense...

    And as I wrote above a summoner/tank I wouldn't want the threat on me, I would want it on my bugs.

    I think it would be doable...
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Not all. Tank main Archetype mitigation abilities could still significantly surpass all other Archetypes, or something else about their class design might stop them from being as effective.

    Rogues might have most of their big damage abilities based on 'not being directly in front of the enemy' with insufficient ability to generate Threat when tanking.
    Summoners might have no way to absorb Threat from a summon, but not have as many ways as a Tank to have a Summon that can consistently mitigate damage at the same level.
    Apostles are even more complicated, because even if they build exactly like a Tank, they don't have Ultimate Defense (and unlike some other classes, not much like it) and would rely on 'absorbing' Threat whenever the mob hits someone else. I'm personally very familiar with 'the conditions under which tanking like this fails', and they're nontrivial.
    Fighters would probably get the closest, but even they are likely to be 'gap closers' and gap closing moves would probably be balanced by just doing less damage.

    So sure, all the tools would be there to main tank some of the time. If that's all you want, they'd have to work hard to make that terrible.

    Ok
    So if you're trying to main tank with rogue/tank, going all in on tank specs, stats, augments etc... It's all possible. Yes they would lose damage output from positional modifiers or whatever, but you're trying to fill the role of tank not damage dealer.
    You wouldn't have the mitigation of heavy armor or shield, but you could lean more into evasion and dodge. Reducing 30% of damage or dodging 30% of hits is the same effect'ish in terms of survivability. Could even add mechanics of extra avoidance after a dodge roll or whatever (kinda of like the dodge effects added in GW2)

    And you're right they would not have "ultimate defense" but could have an ability something like shadowdance instead of shadow stepping around and stabbing a lot as a dps version, it could do way less damage and give them a huge dodge/avoidance buff for the same amount of time as ultimate defense...

    And as I wrote above a summoner/tank I wouldn't want the threat on me, I would want it on my bugs.

    I think it would be doable...

    Of course it's doable. Ninjas tank in FFXI.

    'Will Ashes do it' is the question, and their answer was basically 'no', and technically 'probably not', but again, it depends on what you're trying to tank.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    Ok
    So if you're trying to main tank with rogue/tank, going all in on tank specs, stats, augments etc... It's all possible. Yes they would lose damage output from positional modifiers or whatever, but you're trying to fill the role of tank not damage dealer.
    You wouldn't have the mitigation of heavy armor or shield, but you could lean more into evasion and dodge. Reducing 30% of damage or dodging 30% of hits is the same effect'ish in terms of survivability. Could even add mechanics of extra avoidance after a dodge roll or whatever (kinda of like the dodge effects added in GW2)

    And you're right they would not have "ultimate defense" but could have an ability something like shadowdance instead of shadow stepping around and stabbing a lot as a dps version, it could do way less damage and give them a huge dodge/avoidance buff for the same amount of time as ultimate defense...

    And as I wrote above a summoner/tank I wouldn't want the threat on me, I would want it on my bugs.

    I think it would be doable...
    You can try to main tank with Rogue/Tank but that's not the way the game is designed/balanced.
    The devs say that a group will need a Primary Archetype Tank.
    Simply asserting that it's possible for a Rogue/Tank to main tank is just talk with no evidence.
    Is it impossible? - probably not. Will it be commonly possible? - probably not.
    But, sure, if a Rogue wants to try to main tank, they will maximize all Tank perks they can acquire.

    Seems like some people are thinking of Secondary Archetype as a Dual-Class rather than a Sub-Class.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I've been thinking about it as a blending of the two classes not so much as able to act as both classes.

    With that though, every party is going to need a tank and a cleric no matter what... Thought they said they were trying to avoid mandatory meta?

  • LethLeth Member
    Azherae wrote: »

    Of course it's doable. Ninjas tank in FFXI.

    'Will Ashes do it' is the question, and their answer was basically 'no', and technically 'probably not', but again, it depends on what you're trying to tank.

    I was just thinking that. Paladin/Ninja or Paladin/Blue mage was where I had a TON of fun tanking in FF11.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    I've been thinking about it as a blending of the two classes not so much as able to act as both classes.

    With that though, every party is going to need a tank and a cleric no matter what... Thought they said they were trying to avoid mandatory meta?

    That's what we're saying. If you find a place where the enemies are weak to a Summoner/Tank's style of tanking, then live there. That's the point of Ashes. Find where you enjoy being and stay there. You would have to be outright terrible at it, or Ashes design much worse than it appears, for open minded players (or at least the ones I know) to not let you do your thing.

    But you can't tank everything. You might be much more efficient than a Tank/Anything at your 'favored enemy', in certain encounters, etc. Build a reputation for this. Let people know of your style and badass skilz. People who don't believe in you while you're doing well don't matter unless you only have time to play with randoms occasionally.

    Sometimes the Ninja Tanks, sometimes the Monk Tanks, sometimes the Paladin Tanks, sometimes the Puppetmaster Tanks. Depends on what you need that day.

    I seriously doubt every party is going to need a Tank/X to take on every encounter. Are you worried about being limited as compared to a Tank/X? Do you want to be 'their equal in most situations'? That's different. You've been 'worrying' about this for literally months now, to the point where I have more Brood Warden desire data from you, in my files, than anyone else. Just tell them what you need and hopefully you get it.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
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