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Dev Discussion #33 - New Player Experience

13

Comments

  • truelytruely Member, Alpha One
    edited August 2021
    As part of the intro you should walk in from somewhere high up and you get a fantastic view of the open world showing off the long draw distance, this is the hook that will get players excited, that wow moment. I like a small amount of handholding and i think for more casuals options for heavier handholding should be available. So you got a heavy version, light version and skip version I think makes the most sense. Almost making perhaps levels 1-5 not be able to have open world PvP killable/flaggable. Then introduce the open world PvP information as part of reaching that level 5 thus avoiding the horrible player experience of being level 1 PKed.
  • JeanPhilippeQCJeanPhilippeQC Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In my book an ideal new player experience would be a new vast world top explore. A world that you can discover at each step forward you do. You know the discover of the unknown. Unknown forests, deserts, snowy mountains.

    As for questing, a unique questing system add some magic. I think that unique memorable quests add to the leveling experience. Fun ones make a great game in my opinion. Quests that require us to interact with objects to complete them are one of best ones. I like immersion in MMORPGS.

    Memorable characters would be welcome at any time. See Arthas, Illidan or Gul’dan from Warcraft universe.

    I would like to see “escorting” quests like we had in Vanilla WoW. You escort an NPC from point A to point B and get attacked by mobs. They must be shown as “Escort” Quest in some way.

    I would do any interesting end game content.

    I would like an interesting crafting system. I want to feel that invest time in crafting worth.

    Overall, I like to be busy with questing, end game content. I like immersion to keep me interested. I also enjoy rewardable crafting.

    JeanPhilippeQC
  • The new player experience is one of the most important things in a game to get right. People here have talked about no hand holding whatsoever and i cant stress enough how wrong that is. Not everyone is a hardcore gamer, not everyone who comes to play this game will be either. Hell some people who end up here in years to come might never have played a game before at all. Gamers have been proven to give a game less than 2 hours typically to decide if this game is for them or not, so pretty much your new player experience. The Game needs to give you enough 2hand holding" to get you steady and confident enough to strive into the world, without being over bearing. this is a fine line to walk. I think to achieve this you need to cover the basics of combat, crafting, and gathering. Explain how skills work and how you allocate any points etc. Anything else i would have with pop ups as an active help option the first time you interact with something. Now i would also say that any tutorial should be skippable for people who just want to go in hardcore no hand holding at all. if they chose to do this and then complain they have no idea how things work etc, then frankly thats on them. ideally you would achieve all of these things through a questline, introducing people to the world of Verra, a brief explanation of what things are about, why we are back here and how we need to survive and thrive.

    Now i would also add that this game has weapon skills as a major part of your character diversification, in a similar but more in depth way to ESO. Eso is its tutorial gives you access to basic versions of each weapon type, allowing you to chose your playstyle from the beginning, this really helps you to feel like you are not wasting your time. New world for example forces you to beginning "sword and board" and by doing this it felt like i was wasting my time, it wasnt the style i wanted to play and i wasnt interested. it took me hours to get the weapon i wanted for my style by which time i was ready to bail on the whole experience.

    As this game also is big on PVP, it should go some way to explain that its not just the monsters and creatures of the world that might be your enemy, but also other players too. And you should go some way to explain the corruption mechanic pretty early on, and in such a way that people understand it. The corruption mechanic will matter to the more casual players, and will go a long way towards convincing these players to stay. Now i know some people are going to beat me over the head with the "ashes won't be for everyone and thats ok" quotation here, and thats cool, it wont be. But it for sure needs to be for enough people to ensure not only an initial success, but also a continued growth, so we cannot forget the more casual player base.

    inconclusion, give us the basics of the lore/ world, the combat, the crafting/gathering (basics) an explanation of the pvp, and either the choice of weapon we want, or the ability to make a level 0/1 version of each weapon type pretty easily

    Pretty sure i missed some things i wanted to say on here too, but if you read this far then thank you :)
  • The pre-game-start experience/cinematic/narration should lay the groundwork for the “why”s of the narrative mechanics they’ll encounter such as races, corruption, and node building. Some non-skippable world building goes a long way, and yeah some people will moan and whine about 60s of their life being used for exposition, but everyone should start on the same foot as far as narrative info goes, especially if discovering hidden secrets to the world is going to be a key feature as advertised. Personally I’m not a fan of tutorials outside of relevant context, so basic movement and attack functions, consumables, could be presented on first arrival, but resistances, special attacks, and technicalities of crafting professions should be overviewed as they’re used.

    On arrival, honestly I don’t imagine there’s much point in directing players. Just a quick, people are establishing settlements around, perhaps you could join them, and stick a maker on the closest node.

    Since crafting is going to be very restrictive, players need to know that BEFORE commuting to one, and something beyond a “this can’t be changed later” notification. No one reads those, and then they get mad they’re stuck with their first choice. Build up the permanence early.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think it should be kept relatively simple for new players. Introduce them to leveling, gathering, and (maybe) crafting. Don't want to overwhelm them. Where it makes sense, introduce them to other systems they need to care about.

    For new players, there probably should be a decent amount of hand holding to introduce them to systems and get them progressing in the game. I don't think it should require a lot of thought for them to get a start on their adventuring class and start liking how their gear looks. They should feel good about their progression before the game cuts them loose.
  • Freedom, a new player needs freedom and NOT millions of useless and annoying "quests" that only tell yo you do repetitive things.
    A good new player experience is based on how much free you are to do whatever you want to do.
  • The first 90 mins of game launch are all you get to hook a passing player.
    So for players who do not want to spend time with character creation; they need a means to make a character fast; less than 5 mins.
    While cinematic intros are nice, not everyone cares so having it either be short or skippable will be good.
    Start players off in a way that will show them what the next 50 hours of play will be like for them. Do not start them on long quest chains if they are going to be mostly be fighting mobs. Nor have them genocide-ing the local wildlife if what they will actually be doing is chain quests.
    Since the intention of the game is to be PvP focused, I would suggest squeezing in some PvP in if possible.
    Keep things simple and straight-forward, but do not simplify. Showing things off as too simple will have a backfire effect when the complexity hits later.
    The first 90mins should be a completely controlled environment. The player should not be controlled/handheld but the environment should. And the transition from the controlled environment to the free-for-all should be noticeable but not jarring. (Note: I am saying it should be controlled, not safe)
    By the end of the first 90mins the player should have a fully functional character. They might be simplistic but they should be able to function in their intended role.
  • Minimal hand holding, We just need to be taught basic stuffs.
    If I need any hand holding I'll find someone and ask them too.
    "Hey you sir, I'm a moron and can't figure this shit out, please help me. :( "
    If the game is as big and social as we're all hoping for, this shouldn't be an issue. :smile:
  • There should be something to introduce new players to the corruption system and explain how it works. Otherwise, a bunch of newbs will be tricked into flagging as a combatant or lured into PvP zones.
  • Hayhaka SapaHayhaka Sapa Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Horyoshi wrote: »
    +1 to make your character feel small and not the hero from the start.

    I know it sounds very much like the start of vanilla WoW. But to me personally, I feel like that game handles the beginning experience still the best.

    I remember back in vanilla, I would visit my starting area back because I was starting to miss it. Already feeling nostalgic at lvl60 towards my starting zone 🙂

    I did always love the original starting areas and quests in WoW. I had a character of each race and each class in the game. I liked different starting areas for different reasons. My favorites were always the Blood Elves and the Tauren area. Blood Elves was pretty and always was a calm home for me. Tauren... I guess the lore and design. I am half American Indian as you may have guessed from my name. I am Apsalooka (aka Crow although it isn't what it actually means) and Sihasapa Lakota (Tauren appear to be modeled on Lakota). For a game I think they did great with the culture etc. I loved visiting the Trolls I think it was with the great music, etc. I went in and created characters now and then for years after I quit just to see the starter areas again. lol Perhaps something memorable and "home" could be created here too.

    As for classes. I would love the basics being taught on a generic character in an area real quick.... movement and how to attack, defend in general, heal or whatever. Then give an option to try classes you wish to try for a few minutes (try 0, 2, 5, or whatever) to get a small idea what it's like and an idea where it can take you. Then create your character knowing what class you want. It just seems a good way to not have to delete characters in order to keep trying and find what you like to start.
  • SoggyBandaidSoggyBandaid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dev Discussion #33 - New Player Experience
    What are some of the key elements you think should be introduced to a new player, and how much “hand-holding” do you generally like to see in a game?

    For me, I would say the key elements that should be introduced to the player include, core story elements, and core systems elements. Regarding story elements, streamer, Josh Strife Hayes, makes a pretty compelling argument that an MMO should hook its players inside the first two hours of gameplay in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtdaby3q6NI . I thought GW2 did an amazing job of doing this with an instanced story with cut scene as soon as you load a character. Regarding system elements, I feel players should be introduced to any and all systems without leaving the game to search youtube or a wiki. I would say for AoC this should include combat and leveling, artisan paths, mount and vehicle movement, and node economy and caravans just as a start.

    When it comes to the amount of hand holding to give a player, I personally feel like an aggressive story hook up front helps a lot. I saw a video somewhere of Steven talking about the nature of the AoC cosmos, the exile of the others, and the return to Verra after the apocalypse. I would not let my players miss that, it's too good. For introducing systems, I think anything from an actual in game tutorial to an in game journal that pops up when I encounter something new is all good depending on how crucial the system. I would also give players the choice to opt to skip out if they choose.
  • I personally would be happy to be dropped into the world with no tutorial, as long as there's a comprehensive ingame knowledge base on available mechanics. This is partly due to the fact that I am already keeping track of the game, and will likely know about a lot of ingame possibilities in advance, so tutorial will be a rather boring and pointless experience.

    However if any of my friends (who don't keep track of Ashes development) were to start playing - it might be a good idea to have several different tutorial options for people coming from different popular MMOs, relying on comparison to mechanics from these games, and only mentioning briefly the mechanics that are fully replicated.

    As some already mentioned, a small non-interactive intro video introducing the background of the world and my character's place in it would be grand.
  • The last time I played a MMORPG for more than a couple hours is back when WoW released its first extension (The Burning Crusade). I also tried GW2 just recently but am not a fan of it so far.

    The stuff that ruins GW2 for me is:
    - Quests givers don't really matter in the early game. You just run through the world and when you happen to kill some specific mobs you get a bonus. It doesn't feel satisfying at all.
    - Skills and crafting feel way too complicated and I can't really find a way to focus on a specific "project" that would bring me back to the game ("getting to max lvl" is not such a project. If it was, it would be a burden, not a goal)

    That being said, I would like to have 3 things in the early game:
    - Fighting mobs should be more than just "attack enemy. Hit skill button once. Loot. Repeat". All mobs should have some kind of special attack that forces you to focus on what they are doing, so you avoid that damage (and maybe allow you to do extra damage if their attack misses).
    - Skill trees should be easy to understand and the first points you set should make the game feel significantly different by giving you new skills or other significant stuff.
    - I need a project that I can start early in the game. This could be the path to my first freehold or learning a craft. Going on that path should give me some benefits, because I need to know that the stuff I craft actually matters.

    However, I don't want to have to do this stuff. Just give me early information on how to find these progression paths and then let me choose when to go those routes.
  • Mangust747Mangust747 Member
    edited August 2021
    I welcome everyone from Russia and I don't know English, so I hope Google translator will cope. I am a big fan of dwarves, I ask you to change the appearance of the race of dwarves, make them stronger in the body, slightly thicker in the waist, more palms and feet, thick eyebrows and a long beard (the length and type of beard that would be determined by sliders when creating), so that everything would be according to the canons of the dwarves. A great example will be from the movie "The Lord of the Rings", please make them bright, strong and stern dwarves for the release of the game, because now they look like children with a beard. Thanks for your attention!
  • Optional tutorial / beginner style quests are a great thing for the non-hardcore gamer or those who have not followed the development of the game. I am not a fan of WOW or how the tutorial is forced on you until almost level 15. New World does a better job in introducing you into the world with little amount of hand holding to give you an idea of the crafting, combat styles, skills/perks, but then give you a few main story quests that will force you to learn a few critical aspects to the game play. Other then that it does not require a whole lot of time to complete. Now that being said, if an account has multiple characters after the first one they should be able to opt out or forego any type of tutorial style quests of any sort. I do not want to have to waste my time doing that stuff when I would want to just enter the game and play.

    This is always an extremely divisive subject for beginners and HC players. To keep game growth you need to have something in place to satisfy the sometimes clueless casuals who do not understand the mechanics or join for the beauty aesthetics. On the other side a HC gamer wants to bypass all that and dig in on their own terms. You can never please them all but having OPTIONS to have such a thing can at least provide a bit more for some.
    MVH
    Eebzter
  • If your in game ui with inventory/equipment management is so confusing that the average person needs extreme hand holding with the forced quest progression (ie - "equip the sword solider and we will continue your training") then there is something wrong with your inventory and equipment UI. I can't tell you a single game where I enjoyed myself during tutorial quests to play the main part of the game.

    Little popup tooltips that can be turned off in the settings seems logical.

    Let the community create guides and such to do the in depth hand holding.
  • SorcresSorcres Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The best tutorial is one you don't even know you are doing. The side quest that you would still perform will gradually give you such tasks that will teach you something. It should be naturally in the game, so that you do not even know that the game teaches you something.

    Please avoid tutorials videos, that is annoying.
  • hey i just got the pre order pack is there any way i can join the testing servers?
  • Skyri02Skyri02 Member
    edited August 2021
    You know the waiting area when u waited for apocalypse to start? I think new ppl should start there and get a basic guide of how things work in the game or something similar.

    This small area before you enter into the portal will give you some quest where its easy to figure out alone where u have to go next etc. (helps you understand how questing works in the game)

    And alot of ppl here had great ideas that can be introductions in this small starterzone.

    As soon you enter the portal to Verra your handholding is gone. =]

    If there will be a problem with to many ppl in the same starterzone, then maby make it instanced, and when you have done the last introduction quest to get into the portal to Verra you will chose what "gate" you will spawn from.
  • I will echo alot of the sentiment from other players here, but the general jist would be like this:

    - The initial introduction has to introduce you to the world. Give context, but drip feed the story through the questing system in the game. I don't think you want to be plunged into the world and there is an immediate presence in the world it can feel like lazy storytelling. Start the game almost innocent - keep the scope local and as we progress our scope in the world and value increases.

    A very short and basic tutorial i.e. quests that encourage you to use key abilities/components of the game would be good at the start but let it be part of the game. Don't make it an instanced tutorial - which then throws you into the world - it should be combined as an introduction to the world in terms of story while also introducing you to controls etc.
  • ErodgemonErodgemon Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Outside of the normal navigating controls and combat, I think communication and player-player interaction. Intrepid emphasizes that AoC is an MMO; teach about parties, raids, guilds, chat window, and how to maximize efficiency in player communication and teamwork.

    Handholding is good, covers everyone. Just don't make it obtrusive to where a player turns off all help.
  • Oh boy do I look forward to actually starting this game. I would enjoy a nice movie that intros the lore of the world and the monsters within. I think after I pick the race I want to be there could be another clip of some details of that specific race. As for hand holding just give the basics of systems and let me YouTube the stuff I cant figure out for the life of me. I personally am a huge fan of the no question marks over peoples heads and minimum arrows telling me exactly where to go. I can remember playing my first game and spending at least an hour just talking to everyone I saw. Just imagining the possibility of a grand side quest where I find a unique pet/mount because I talked to the kid in the back alley of the tavern I was gambling at is so dang cool.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    JusKing wrote: »
    Oh boy do I look forward to actually starting this game. I would enjoy a nice movie that intros the lore of the world and the monsters within. I think after I pick the race I want to be there could be another clip of some details of that specific race. As for hand holding just give the basics of systems and let me YouTube the stuff I cant figure out for the life of me. I personally am a huge fan of the no question marks over peoples heads and minimum arrows telling me exactly where to go. I can remember playing my first game and spending at least an hour just talking to everyone I saw. Just imagining the possibility of a grand side quest where I find a unique pet/mount because I talked to the kid in the back alley of the tavern I was gambling at is so dang cool.

    I like that. Something extra for the players who aren't in a rush to finish the tutorial area.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Make a tutorial that teaches by doing, but make it skippable or toggled. Explain the UI, Basic combat, professions available, stats/skill trees. Just cover whatever a new player needs to know and just assume they are a kid, that way if it happens to be a kid, they'll be able to comprehend the process. Most older players will likely be MMO veterans and can usually skip the tutorial entirely, so provide the option to skip it, otherwise no harm no foul if it is a little hand holdy as far as basics go.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2021
    Here is what I would like to see.

    1. Cinematic
    Load the game and a cinematic starts showing the basic lore background of the Ancients arriving and taking over Verra, and people leaving for Sanctus through the gates. And of course something about the Tulnar. Make sure people understand the over-arching plot of the return to Verra, and what the overall goal is. Introduce the gods and the races.

    2. Character creation
    Make it nice :wink:

    3. Load the character in on Sanctus or in the Underrealm
    I would like to see the character arrive on Sanctus or the Underrealm (if Tulnar) in a confined space containing a portal and a tutorial area. I think instanced is best by far. If instanced, perhaps have some NPCs in the background acting like players and going through the portal, just so it doesn't seem too empty. Alternately, dispense with the whole Sanctus/Underrealm thing and just make it a non-descript tutorial area.

    4. Optional tutorial
    I think the tutorial should target people completely new to the genre, and maybe even new to PC gaming too. Some players like jumping straight into things without tutorials, and some prefer a thorough tutorial to make them comfortable with the basics before they enter the game proper. The following accommodates all.

    As soon as the character loads in, present the player with a voiced over tutorial if possible (with text as well obviously). And a big fat Skip Tutorial button they can click.
    • Lock the players into the first few basic steps, so at first they can only move using WASD (or whatever they have keybinds set to). Guide them through it, but also let players skip this and the other steps quickly one by one should they desire to.
    • Make them hit space to jump.
    • Then guide them through holding the right mouse button to turn the character with the camera while moving.
    • Teach the player to zoom in and out on the scroll wheel.
    • Introduce the action mode as an alternative (hit Z to toggle back and forth and explain how the camera and reticle works)
    • Teach the player to interact with NPCs and objects using E.
    • End the locked in tutorial part.
    In front of the player should now be a tutorial NPC with quests to teach the player more things, like equipping gear (open inventory, check character window etc.).

    Next up a basic combat quest. Have the player whack a training dummy. Teach them to hold down Q or LMB depending on mode. Let the player try all weapon types in the tutorial area to see what they like. Don't give them actual combat skills yet.

    Finally a slightly more advanced combat quest where they learn about the active dodge skill, as well as switching targets using tab or whatever the keybind is set to.

    Also, have a super simple and optional jumping puzzle in the tutorial area, where players can practice sprint-jumping and whatnot. It doesn't need a quest or a reward or anything, just make it obvious it's there for the player to try.

    It might be good to have an option to go through all the UI elements on the screen, just so players know what the buttons do and are called.

    Players who already know the game or hate tutorials can run straight through the portal to Verra of course

    5. Enter Verra
    As soon as the player goes though the portal, present them with a choice of the 4 starter areas. I suggest not doing a wormhole effect as that is overdone, but a pretty effect on the screen could be cool. Cue a short "cinematic" with a birds eye view of the landing area before zooming in on the character and giving the player control.

    Once in the starter area on Verra, have a welcoming NPC teach the character about skills and how to hit J and dragging them to the hotbar and all that jazz if they want to, and otherwise guide them to the first NPC with a quest.
  • If talking to anyone could yield a quest/reward, then there should be some tutorial type that explains this. I remember doing this style of questing with Everquest, but we have about 2 decades worth of gamers that have not. So this style of tutorial would help MMO veterans as well.

    I suggest having either a small starting encampment in which you are instructed to speak with everyone in that camp (each person holding a quest). You could get an achievement for finishing all, while making following that particular tutorial optional. I would encourage the starting node to be static and detached from the other dynamic world nodes.
  • DmhofmaDmhofma Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I feel like a thematic start for each race would be extremely entertaining, just to show off the best points of each race and give people a taste of the culture. I also think that hand holding should be an optional tutorial that gives new players a means to understand the long and short of the game, but doesn't force returning players to feel belittled. I'm not exactly sure how quests are going to be handled, but I think that for early on quests there should be either a linear fashion to complete them, or a suggestion quest to help guide people in what they should try next. I personally don't like having no direction and think this would be a big help for those who want to follow it.
  • Stretch wrote: »
    I think with a game like this, the new player experience should be showing the player that they are in a world that is bigger then themselves. They don't start off as a hero, trader, bounty hunter etc, they are just a player and it is up to them to choose who they want to be.

    As for hand holding...Other than the basic tutorial on movement or combat, I think people should just be left to figure things out on their own.

    I agree with this, but I want to expand a bit. At the beginning you should be told pretty much how to play and how the UI works and that's about it. Then explain that there are a lot of ways to mold the world and your character the way you want to play. Beyond that I'd say have the starter area have NPCs that can explain the systems in more depth for if a person wants to learn them. Along with that you could have a journal of sorts that can tell you how to start on a path to learning it whenever they chose to. I'd also think it'd be a good idea, if the tutorial does need to hold your hand more, is to show that combat is not the only way to level up your character as to give a better feeling of freedom in the world.

    Ultimately you don't want people who are playing Ashes as there first game ever (because that definitely happens from time to time) to be completely lost on what to do and how to play when they start. But you also don't want the player to be taken out of their immersion by being guided too much toward a goal.
  • HodappHodapp Member
    edited August 2021
    Character Creation:
    [*] Make it as crazy as possible. I have never heard anybody complain there were too many options when it comes to creating your character. (Always add basic options for looks for people who do not care) Everyone loves it when they can create someone unique to themselves, this means the looks and abilities the player uses. The worse thing about New World is the lack of ability separation from one player to the next. IMO, for abilities have paths that lead down paths that lead down paths. Also add a lore or back story to as much stuff as you can, there are literally communities dedicated to this type of stuff and provide a very immersive feel.

    Tutorial:
    [*] When it comes to tutorials, most of the time you are given the basics; how to use basic controls, how basic things work in the game, and any UI help. However I feel the best thing to do is have an NPC with quests to teach the player more things, like equipping gear (open inventory, check character window, or any basics.) What this does it allow new players to learn and returning players to skip this part if it is not needed.

    Also if you are going to have players choose a starting area or faction that could lock them out of playing with fellow friends who choose differently, please make this this very transparent.

    Most people want to care about their character and the story they are diving into. Give them a reason.
  • MaxTheCatfishMaxTheCatfish Member
    edited August 2021
    Most important is giving a reason for the player to care about themselves and the world. What enemies are encroaching on our territory? What imminent threat is there (large or small)? WoW did a great job not only introducing the many races, but each race was contending with an imminent threat: The humans were being attacked by bandits and kobolds. The gnomes were dealing with the repercussions of lepercy. The orcs and trolls were trying to keep the various horde races together.

    Give players a sense of urgency, but don't introduce the BIG BAD BOSS right away. I'm a nobody. Don't give away the big enemy right off the bat or it will feel like I'm being railroaded toward the end of the game right from the onset. Doing so makes any side quests feel foolish in the big scheme of things and they end up feeling like wasted time on the road to mAx LeVEl. Let us enjoy the experience, not simply the destination. Your responsibility is to give us a reason to care about the world.
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