Speed modifiers, what is your opinion? Should AoC have them?

ITT i would like people to share their thoughts on speed stats modifiers(from sources like Gear, Base stats, Buffs, Passives and etc), not only Movement Speed(which is expected) but:
Attack Speed(speed of physical attacks and skills),
Cast Speed(speed of magical attacks and skills),
and overall Action Speed(speed of all movement, attacks and skills).
Do you think those would be beneficial for the combat in Ashes of Creation or would create balancing problems?
Do you have a opinion on weapons having different base attack/cast speed modifiers?
Like "Dagger faster than sword faster than axe faster than mace"
"Book faster than Scepter faster than staff"

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JustVine

JamesSunderland wrote: »

ITT i would like people to share their thoughts on speed stats modifiers(from sources like Gear, Base stats, Buffs, Passives and etc), not only Movement Speed(which is expected) but:
Attack Speed(speed of physical attacks and skills),
Cast Speed(speed of magical attacks and skills),
and overall Action Speed(speed of all movement, attacks and skills).
Do you think those would be beneficial for the combat in Ashes of Creation or would create balancing problems?

I would preffer these buffs were linked mainly to food, bard, summoner, and 'trade off' abilities (made up totally not balance considered e.g. A beserk boosting attack speed but draining mp during and stamina cap is lower after)

I like positive status effects a lot. They create dependence on team members and craft systems if balanced right. They let developers make more complex encounters if used sparingly and built with 'combined with other skills' in mind. It is done worst when the buff becomes a gate to successfully achieving or getting to content without the player group having agency over the conditions or strategy irt them.

This applies to all the buffs you listed.

I dont specifically like move speed being on gear in a game like this. Increasing move speed should have activation requirements and a timer wether this is via consumable or ability doesn't truly matter.

Attack Speed and cast speed are fine on gear, but require heavy balancing.

Action speed is a flawed concept as it simplifies something that should require more complexity and cooperation. If you give this to gear or a consumable it will automatically become mandatory for content and meta. If you give it to skill it better be ultimate only. Id be down with it on fighter ult if balanced correctly.

JamesSunderland

JustVine wrote: »

I would preffer these buffs were linked mainly to food, bard, summoner, and 'trade off' abilities (made up totally not balance considered e.g. A beserk boosting attack speed but draining mp during and stamina cap is lower after)

I like positive status effects a lot. They create dependence on team members and craft systems if balanced right. They let developers make more complex encounters if used sparingly and built with 'combined with other skills' in mind. It is done worst when the buff becomes a gate to successfully achieving or getting to content without the player group having agency over the conditions or strategy irt them.

This applies to all the buffs you listed.

I dont specifically like move speed being on gear in a game like this. Increasing move speed should have activation requirements and a timer wether this is via consumable or ability doesn't truly matter.

Attack Speed and cast speed are fine on gear, but require heavy balancing.

Action speed is a flawed concept and should never be implemented as a buff as it simplifies something that should require more complexity and cooperation. If you give this to gear or a consumable it will automatically become mandatory for content and meta. If you give it to skill it better be ultimate only. Id be down with it on fighter ult if balanced correctly.

I definitely agree with the thoughts on movement speed on gear, but would understand movement speed increases in ultra endgame boots or set effects.

Action speed is hella powerful, hard to balance and certainly meta defining, as it is basically taking all the speed modifiers into a single one. Something like that in my opinion would require heavy requirements and maybe even drawbacks to be feasible.

Do you have a opinion on weapons having different base attack/cast speed modifiers?
Like "Dagger faster than sword faster than axe faster than mace"
"Book faster than Scepter faster than staff"

JustVine

JamesSunderland wrote: »

@JustVine

JustVine wrote: »

I would preffer these buffs were linked mainly to food, bard, summoner, and 'trade off' abilities (made up totally not balance considered e.g. A beserk boosting attack speed but draining mp during and stamina cap is lower after)

I like positive status effects a lot. They create dependence on team members and craft systems if balanced right. They let developers make more complex encounters if used sparingly and built with 'combined with other skills' in mind. It is done worst when the buff becomes a gate to successfully achieving or getting to content without the player group having agency over the conditions or strategy irt them.

This applies to all the buffs you listed.

I dont specifically like move speed being on gear in a game like this. Increasing move speed should have activation requirements and a timer wether this is via consumable or ability doesn't truly matter.

Attack Speed and cast speed are fine on gear, but require heavy balancing.

Action speed is a flawed concept and should never be implemented as a buff as it simplifies something that should require more complexity and cooperation. If you give this to gear or a consumable it will automatically become mandatory for content and meta. If you give it to skill it better be ultimate only. Id be down with it on fighter ult if balanced correctly.

I definitely agree with the thoughts on movement speed on gear, but would understand movement speed increases in ultra endgame boots or set effects.

Action speed is hella powerful, hard to balance and certainly meta defining, as it is basically taking all the speed modifiers into a single one. Something like that in my opinion would require heavy requirimend and maybe even drawbacks to be feasible.

Do you have a opinion on weapons having different base attack/cast speed modifiers?
like Dagger faster than sword faster than axe faster than mace?

I play FFXI so I wouldn't have thought of it being otherwise irt attack speed on weapons.

Irt end game move speed boots. In class locked gear systems I would find these reasonable. But Ashes isn't that. Move speed can break part of the rps 'balance' intended for classes as it lowers the need for chase balance, increases close in enmity and mages classes more sticky than possibly intended. Balanceable on a class ability. Less so on gear available to everyone. The boots would therefore need a built in possibly meta tradeoff relative to other boots. Possibly do able and acceptable but harder to execute I think.

George_Black

They are good for tab target systems but not for actions.

For action combat if an ability wants to be fast I'd like to see it locked behind having to slot a dagger or a sword.
If an ability wants to be slow and powerful I'd like to see it locked behind a two handed weapon.

Different systems must be approached differently, both at designing the ability function and anination and both at selecting stats for the game.

In addition, I'd like to see a new way of approaching weapons.

Swords reduce mp consumption.
Daggers reduce ability cooldown
Hammers apply armor penetration
Axes increase whatever... crit chance, idk..

George_Black

Ill post it here again. IS needs to choose a combat for AoC. Either a modernized tabtarget with better mobility (gap closers, openers, block anination abilities that boost defence for a bit, roll dodge animation abilities that boost evasion for a bit) or go with action combat.

Trying to include both will resolt in half the players playing a subpar tab system, half playing a subpar action. Nobody will be switching in between. And we will be stuck with it.

JamesSunderland

George Black wrote: »

They are good for tab target systems but not for actions.

For action combat if an ability wants to be fast I'd like to see it locked behind having to slot a dagger or a sword.
If an ability wants to be slow and powerful I'd like to see it locked behind a two handed weapon.

Different systems must be approached differently, both at designing the ability function and anination and both at selecting stats for the game.

In addition, I'd like to see a new way of approaching weapons.

Swords reduce mp consumption.
Daggers reduce ability cooldown
Hammers apply armor penetration
Axes increase whatever... crit chance, idk..

Any specific reason for speed modifiers being good on TT but not on AC in your opinion?

George_Black

Because action combat has set animations. Not only that action combat has animation cancelling problems.
Atk speed wouldnt make a difference (so atk speed would be a bad stat to invest in AoC goes ahead with a double combat system).

Atk speed is good for tab targeting since it affects the casting of an ability or the rate of normal attacks.

George_Black

Movement speed is a tricky concept in games. Personally if you are slow you can be bypassed, overlooled, ignored. Plus if you are chased you wont get far.

There hasnt been a game in which I didnt invest in movement speed. Not one. It's just that good.

HazardNumberSeven

Movement speed tends to be OP especially in PvP. If your enemy is faster than you, you can never defeat them.

CROW3

I think movement speed enhancements in AoC have to be limited to either temporary buffs (whatever the source), mount specific traits, or extremely rare item enhancements.

Since pvp is a threat at any time in the open world movement speed becomes a must have capability to stay ahead of potential threats or chase down targets. So it either has to be provided in a way that can become equalized (mount gear - think spurs) or remain temporary so I can’t endlessly outpace a pvp encounter.

The tighter an economy of motion, the more valuable a highly rare item with even a tiny bit of movement boost will become.

Sources of temporary speed buffs could range from food, to long cd abilities, to bard songs (making them very valuable as partners in AoC, etc.

Tyranthraxus

I think most MMOs refer to this as either "Alacrity" or "Action Cooldown".

It can be done right. If there's a standard Global Cooldown in-between the time it takes to use an ability in combat and the next one, then it's got to be either static (un-changing and universal to all players) or mod-able (adjustable by stat-engineering).

The more a game is geared towards raiding and PvE content, the more likely yours truly finds it that such cooldowns and limitations will be adjustable. Personally, I support the ability to adjust this because it typically opens the game to both more and a deeper meaning to stats-engineering - and I've always gotten a sense of pride out of completing gearing-projects.

Khronus

The combat does not matter in regards to movement speed boosts. If there are speed boost items or talents in the game, they are a requirement or you simply will not be as good as the next person who has the speed boosts. I hope for any speed increase skills and items will be removed from the game and only apply to the type of mounts we are riding. Sprint is already pushing my buttons as I push its button.

As for boosting the speed of other areas, I love it. Attack speed, cast speed, raw damage, crit, penetration, mitigation, magic mitigation, evasion, cleave damage, stuns, aoe damage, dots, and hots. I hope to see all of these stats with the ability to customize whichever I choose based on how I want to play and theory craft.

Cypher

I would absolutely love to see movement speed, attack speed, and cast speed stats and buffs. Sounds great. I don't have strong opinions yet on how they should be implemented, just that I want to see them.

Vhaeyne

My main concern is always movement speed. It is the worry stat for me that feels mandatory.

Unless you have a good reason otherwise, you likely build boots first in a MOBA. You certainly build them at least as your second item because by then you can really feel the advantage that speed gives. Unless your character does something specific where speed is not an issue. Without speed, you are easy to chase down and easy to run from. Resulting in more deaths for you and fewer kills. It dramatically changes your k/d/a.
Try a few games without boots in any MOBA that has them.

This is all fine in a MOBA. In a persistent game like Ashes, you are going to constantly have to maintain an amount of movement speed to be viable. Otherwise, you are a sitting duck. That amount of movement speed will always be max. If groups of people can just chase you down and run from you like wolves all day. You will never be able to hit them, and they can just peck at you until you are dead.

I just think movement speed is a stat not worth having. It is too meta shaping IMO. The other stats seem like they could be balanced, but movement speed is just too much. Unless they provide very little sources of it. Even then, those sources will be mandatory.

HumblePuffin

As far as movement speed I don’t like it on gear. As others have said, in an games that require a lot of movement for any kind of reason it just becomes a mandatory stat and pigeon holes gear choice.

I don’t think out the gate I would be totally be against it as a potion that lasts for a shorter amount of time. 5 minutes feels right in my head. Maybe even a CD on it (potion sickness?) that is longer than the duration; say 10 minutes.

For one, this makes it something that keeps alchemy relevant as a profession for multiple play styles; high movement PvE, PvP, and just generally questing/gathering, but since it’s on a shorter duration, and a consumable, it limits when and how you want to use it. Is this fight worth the speed boost? Would a potion that boosts my damage be more important in this moment? This could still create a situation where it is meta to have a stack of speed potions on you, but creates more situational decision making as opposed to just slapping movement speed on every pair of boots you have.

As far as attack speed/cast speed I don’t really have much of an opinion on it until I see the direction they choose for combat, but I also feel like I would prefer it as a consumable. I feel this way for most tertiary stats, including the “disable chance” stats currently in game, and come from a perspective where I’d prefer gear to stick to primary stats.

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