You're making the assumption that bad player's know they are bad.
No, I'm making the assumption that a percentage of bad players know they are bad.
You are making the assumption that no bad players think they are bad. Statistically, this is needed in order for my statement to be false, so it must be what you are arguing.
It is perfectly reasonable to generalize things things, it is unreasonable to state some of them as absolutes - which is why I didn't.
I never said no players know that they are bad. I also never made the assumption you thought all bad player's knew they were bad. I pointed out the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that Bad player's usually know they are bad and wouldn't use a certain type of tactics. I think it's more reasonable to assume that bad player's aren't that self aware.
You're free to make generalization. I'm stating that your generalizations don't make sense when there are many examples to the contrary. You're unfairly locking some adjustable dials and stating how a system cannot be balanced based on an unreasonable assumption.
What about the other cases where it would be useful to use the stun multiple times in an extended combat, and now you're winning less because now you can't stun at a critical moment in some imbalanced 3v4 when previously you would have been able to.
One stun occasionally landing or not is not going to have any measurable impact on win/loss in such situations - even if it could be measured which, as we have discussed, it can't.
I'm not sure why you keep pushing this angle of "but we could balance it based on a thing that we have no hope of ever measuring", which is what this line of thinking of yours essentially is.
Even if it did have an impact in those situations (it won't), and even if we were able to measure that impact (we can't), these are not the situations in which it is an issue.
One stun occasionally landing or not is not going to have any measurable impact on win/loss in such situations - even if it could be measured which, as we have discussed, it can't.
Why wouldn't it have an impact? You keep going on about how the stun is a major tool and how good players will flock to it and how it will be an overwhelming force in the meta. Now it's not particularly impactful?
I'm not sure why you keep pushing this angle of "but we could balance it based on a thing that we have no hope of ever measuring", which is what this line of thinking of yours essentially is.
The game needs to be balanced somehow, right? Regardless of whether or not high-impact cc's have a miss% chance. Like, this particular thing we're debating doesn't magically fix whether or not Intrepid needs to balance their game.
Regardless of whether or not cc's can randomly miss, bad players might be losing too much or too little. Do we agree here? Bad players won't research builds, they'll poorly allocate their stats and they'll get stomped. Good players will research their builds, they'll find oppressive OP builds and they'll go out and murk nerds. This will have to be carefully balanced, regardless of whether or not there's a miss% on CC's.
I'm saying that however Intrepid ends up solving this problem, they can apply that solution just as well to balance non-rng ccs as they can to balance rng-ccs.
A stun has no impact in large scale PvP in an MMO.
Depends on the stun, some stuns can be overtuned into oblivion for a single player to make the difference in a 250v250 even in an RNG setting, i can give Lineage 2 Doombringers Rush impact(quite fitting name with no pun intended haha) during Gracia Final era as example, a single well equipped Doombringer going unchecked(people specifically making macros for his target to focus burst) making precise use of this insane skill(No cooldown, instant cast, gap close, Cone shaped AOE 9 sec duration) could make such an incredible impact in mass pvp NCsoft had to nerf the skill to the ground later on.
In the end balancing the skill variables is what makes or breaks it no matter if it is a RNG or a RNG-less setting.
Better player is subjective.
If your character build AND player twitch skills beat my character build and player twitch skills, if you hit me with a Stun, I will be Stunned 99.9% of the time.
If our character builds are even but your player twitch skills are better than my player twitch skills, if you hit me with a Stun, I will be Stunned 99.x% of the time.
If my character build beats your character build but your player twitch skills are better than my player twitch skills, if you hit me with a Stun, that Stun will fail significantly more often. Because my character build is better than your character build.
And this is an RPG.
And: "RNG is always going to play a role in Ashes of Creation whether that be in PvP or PvE, but one way to mitigate that is through the action system. The action system is going to be far less sort of dependent on those you know dice rolls and there'll be far more in your own hands. They won't ever completely eliminate that but it's a way for us to sort of reward skilled play versus sort of tactical strategies type play."
---Jeffrey
He doesn’t elaborate on how his RNG would work and he is no longer working on the game so I don’t think his opinions or ideas really matters at all anymore. Would you care to elaborate on twitch skill though? How is this different from reaction time or normal decision making? Do you want a game where you don’t have to actually play but you watch the character you built do it for you? Are you looking for a turn based combat mmo?
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
It doesn't have to be 250v250, but since that is half the size Intrepid intend on getting fights up to in Ashes (not just sieges), it is a fair number to bring up.
Also, I am going to assume that is a resounding "no" to my earlier question.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
How have you never experienced such a common open world mmo occurrence in so many years of playing them?
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
How have you never experienced such a common open world mmo occurrence in so many years of playing them?
They have! They're just so insanely far backed into a corner trying to defend this completely indefensible position that balance is impossible without miss% that they can't concede literally any point and they end up having to say absolute nonsense.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
It's wild how you are consistently the greatest offender of what you accuse others of doing.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
How have you never experienced such a common open world mmo occurrence in so many years of playing them?
If those two players have a healer friend close enough to get to them before my friend and I are able to kill the other two, then we would have killed that healer friend first and the other two would then attempt to come to their friends aid.
If you attack two players without knowing they have a healer friend nearby enough to get involved before you have killed either of the two in a 2v2 situation, I'm not sure what to tell you...
It is a totally implausible situation for any but the worst open world MMO players out there to find themselves in.
I'm sure you'll now claim that you were talking about small scale combat that just happens to last a long time or something - but if you say extended combat, I am going to assume you are talking about large scale PvP - in the context of this thread.
Yup - hence the word "extended" instead of the word "large scale". Like, you start a 2v2 fight and then half way through an enemy healer shows up to prolong it, and then eventually one of your mates dies but then a new friend arrives and you manage to kill one of them, but then before you can wipe them, someone else shows up, etc. Extended. Sort of like what happens when a small scale scuffle breaks out in a dungeon or over some sort of shared world resource in an open-world game.
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
How have you never experienced such a common open world mmo occurrence in so many years of playing them?
If those two players have a healer friend close enough to get to them before my friend and I are able to kill the other two, then we would have killed that healer friend first and the other two would then attempt to come to their friends aid.
If you attack two players without knowing they have a healer friend nearby enough to get involved before you have killed either of the two in a 2v2 situation, I'm not sure what to tell you...
Does it matter what advice you would give that person in this hypothetical situation? The point is that the fight is now extended, and having a lower cooldown would be more powerful. Your chances of winning the fight if the cooldown was lower is higher. Your chances of winning the fight if your cooldown is higher is lower.
You don’t have to be pedantic. It does seem though that in your presented scenario you really value your game knowledge and awareness of the situation to put you and your friends at an advantage, it would be a shame if something randomly put you into a disadvantageous position after your excellent tactical decision making.
Does it matter what advice you would give that person in this hypothetical situation? The point is that the fight is now extended, and having a lower cooldown would be more powerful. Your chances of winning the fight if the cooldown was lower is higher. Your chances of winning the fight if your cooldown is higher is lower.
This what we call a counter example.
We are talking about situations in which good players would use a stun, and the effect that would have.
You then go and give a situation - of your own free will - that such a player would never get themselves in to in the first place.
Sure, the fight is now extended, but it doesn't matter any more because no one in that fight is a good player, and as such we are not talking about them in the first place.
They have! They're just so insanely far backed into a corner trying to defend this completely indefensible position that balance is impossible without miss% that they can't concede literally any point and they end up having to say absolute nonsense.
No. You only think folks are backed into a corner because you're operating in a box.
It's funny, the tangible outcome of our perspectives is so close, but the 'why' of that gap is very far apart.
Does it matter what advice you would give that person in this hypothetical situation? The point is that the fight is now extended, and having a lower cooldown would be more powerful. Your chances of winning the fight if the cooldown was lower is higher. Your chances of winning the fight if your cooldown is higher is lower.
This what we call a counter example.
We are talking about situations in which good players would use a stun, and the effect that would have.
You then go and give a situation - of your own free will - that such a player would never get themselves in to in the first place.
Sure, the fight is now extended, but it doesn't matter any more because no one in that fight is a good player, and as such we are not talking about them in the first place.
I'm so confused here. A good player happens to be in a fight that becomes extended. Has this never happened to good players in your experience? When this happens, is the stun not better if it has a lower cooldown? Like, I honestly have no idea how you're even trying to debate the concept that lower cooldowns make people win engagements more often on a statistical level.
Not to mention, this is just cooldown. There's still:
build cost
mana
cast time
making it stun yourself, or increase the amount of damage that you take yourself, or literally any offsetting debuff to balance it
They have! They're just so insanely far backed into a corner trying to defend this completely indefensible position that balance is impossible without miss% that they can't concede literally any point and they end up having to say absolute nonsense.
No. You only think folks are backed into a corner because you're operating in a box.
It's funny, the tangible outcome of our perspectives is so close, but the 'why' of that gap is very far apart.
If you'd like to hop in, do you also think that it's impossible to make it so worse players are winning an acceptable amount against better players where high-impact cc's have no chance to miss, despite the fact that you can:
increase the cast time
decrease the duration
make it cost more talent points
make it cost more mana
increase the cooldown
make it cc yourself for some of the duration
set a max-damage cap on the cc so it breaks early if x amount of damage is applied
? (and it only becomes possible to achieve this by adding a miss% to cc)
They have! They're just so insanely far backed into a corner trying to defend this completely indefensible position that balance is impossible without miss% that they can't concede literally any point and they end up having to say absolute nonsense.
No. You only think folks are backed into a corner because you're operating in a box.
It's funny, the tangible outcome of our perspectives is so close, but the 'why' of that gap is very far apart.
You (And others in this thread) seem more interested in playing a turn based single player rpg rather than an mmorpg with action combat.
Comments
I never said no players know that they are bad. I also never made the assumption you thought all bad player's knew they were bad. I pointed out the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that Bad player's usually know they are bad and wouldn't use a certain type of tactics. I think it's more reasonable to assume that bad player's aren't that self aware.
You're free to make generalization. I'm stating that your generalizations don't make sense when there are many examples to the contrary. You're unfairly locking some adjustable dials and stating how a system cannot be balanced based on an unreasonable assumption.
I'm not sure why you keep pushing this angle of "but we could balance it based on a thing that we have no hope of ever measuring", which is what this line of thinking of yours essentially is.
Even if it did have an impact in those situations (it won't), and even if we were able to measure that impact (we can't), these are not the situations in which it is an issue.
The game needs to be balanced somehow, right? Regardless of whether or not high-impact cc's have a miss% chance. Like, this particular thing we're debating doesn't magically fix whether or not Intrepid needs to balance their game.
Regardless of whether or not cc's can randomly miss, bad players might be losing too much or too little. Do we agree here? Bad players won't research builds, they'll poorly allocate their stats and they'll get stomped. Good players will research their builds, they'll find oppressive OP builds and they'll go out and murk nerds. This will have to be carefully balanced, regardless of whether or not there's a miss% on CC's.
I'm saying that however Intrepid ends up solving this problem, they can apply that solution just as well to balance non-rng ccs as they can to balance rng-ccs.
A stun has no impact in large scale PvP in an MMO.
Depends on the stun, some stuns can be overtuned into oblivion for a single player to make the difference in a 250v250 even in an RNG setting, i can give Lineage 2 Doombringers Rush impact(quite fitting name with no pun intended haha) during Gracia Final era as example, a single well equipped Doombringer going unchecked(people specifically making macros for his target to focus burst) making precise use of this insane skill(No cooldown, instant cast, gap close, Cone shaped AOE 9 sec duration) could make such an incredible impact in mass pvp NCsoft had to nerf the skill to the ground later on.
In the end balancing the skill variables is what makes or breaks it no matter if it is a RNG or a RNG-less setting.
Aren't we all sinners?
He doesn’t elaborate on how his RNG would work and he is no longer working on the game so I don’t think his opinions or ideas really matters at all anymore. Would you care to elaborate on twitch skill though? How is this different from reaction time or normal decision making? Do you want a game where you don’t have to actually play but you watch the character you built do it for you? Are you looking for a turn based combat mmo?
You're the one that is talking about large scale PvP since your small scale angle didn't work out.
But I really am only talking about reasonably balanced combat on every post.
Can you point to where I was talking about large scale PvP? Can you point to where my small scale angle didn't work out?
More than understandable, i just felt "A stun has no impact in large scale PvP in an MMO." was an implication of impossibility.
Aren't we all sinners?
Are you okay?
It doesn't have to be 250v250, but since that is half the size Intrepid intend on getting fights up to in Ashes (not just sieges), it is a fair number to bring up.
Also, I am going to assume that is a resounding "no" to my earlier question.
Reasonably or randomly?
What?
You've clearly not played any open world MMO's.
Honestly, that is the takeaway I am getting from my participation in this thread so far - someone that has clearly never played an open world PvP MMO telling someone that has played them for years exactly how open world PvP MMO's go.
How have you never experienced such a common open world mmo occurrence in so many years of playing them?
They have! They're just so insanely far backed into a corner trying to defend this completely indefensible position that balance is impossible without miss% that they can't concede literally any point and they end up having to say absolute nonsense.
It's wild how you are consistently the greatest offender of what you accuse others of doing.
If those two players have a healer friend close enough to get to them before my friend and I are able to kill the other two, then we would have killed that healer friend first and the other two would then attempt to come to their friends aid.
If you attack two players without knowing they have a healer friend nearby enough to get involved before you have killed either of the two in a 2v2 situation, I'm not sure what to tell you...
It is a totally implausible situation for any but the worst open world MMO players out there to find themselves in.
Does it matter what advice you would give that person in this hypothetical situation? The point is that the fight is now extended, and having a lower cooldown would be more powerful. Your chances of winning the fight if the cooldown was lower is higher. Your chances of winning the fight if your cooldown is higher is lower.
This what we call a counter example.
You then go and give a situation - of your own free will - that such a player would never get themselves in to in the first place.
Sure, the fight is now extended, but it doesn't matter any more because no one in that fight is a good player, and as such we are not talking about them in the first place.
No. You only think folks are backed into a corner because you're operating in a box.
It's funny, the tangible outcome of our perspectives is so close, but the 'why' of that gap is very far apart.
Why would that be a shame?
Not to mention, this is just cooldown. There's still:
I just don't see how this is impossible
? (and it only becomes possible to achieve this by adding a miss% to cc)
You (And others in this thread) seem more interested in playing a turn based single player rpg rather than an mmorpg with action combat.