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Designing a proper Hauling Service system

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited September 2021 in General Discussion
I would love to see a proper system in the game for haulers. As in, players who specialize in transporting goods from point A to point B. Not merchants who transport their own goods mind you, but players/guilds the merchants can open contracts with to move those goods. The caravan system will be the lifeblood of the economy and node development of the game, and I think it should be possible to "make a living" of doing that. It fits the risk vs. reward philosophy perfectly IMO.

How would you guys design such a system with what we know of Ashes right now?

Obviously we need a system for listing and accepting contracts. A bulletin board near the caravan master in the node perhaps. The player listing the contract will be doing the following:
  • Determine a pickup point and drop off point.
  • Packaging the goods into a container. The size of the container should be able to be set into certain categories: Mule size containers (base tier, or with tier 1, 2 or 3 cargo size upgrades), or caravan size containers with the same tier size choices. The contents of the containers should not be hidden IMO.
  • Set a collateral amount for the goods in case the transport fails. This is usually 100% or more of the total value of the goods in the package. I would probably set it to 110% myself.
  • Set the reward for successful delivery. This is usually based on the amount of the collateral and the distance it needs to go. The money is taken from the player up front and placed in escrow by the game.
  • Set a time frame for the delivery. A day, a week, or whatever is realistic. If the goods aren't delivered in time, the player listing the contract will get the collateral paid out, but will obviously not be getting the goods back.
  • I would also like to see some sort of black-listing function, where the player can ban specific other players or guilds from accepting the contracts. For example, people who in the past have proven unreliable.

For the hauler, the player accepting the contract, they will be doing the following:
  • Check the bulletin boards for available contracts. I think they should be able to sort by distance, container size, reward and time left in case there are many contracts open. Some sort of visual representation on the map of the pickup and drop off points would be ideal.
  • If one or more contracts seem good, they accept and the collateral is paid immediately out of pocket and put into escrow by the game.
  • The hauler now has free reigns in terms of picking up any packages and delivering them within the time frame given. For long hauls, I think it should be possible to drop off the packages in the warehouse in a node along the way, and then continue the trek the day after.
  • If the hauler accepts several mule-sized contracts, it should be possible to load them all into one caravan and deliver them one by one.
  • If delivery time is exceeded, the hauler forfeits the collateral they paid and any rewards, and probably get a bad reputation, but they keep the goods.
  • If the hauler is attacked and the mule/caravan is destroyed, they lose everything obviously, so the reward for success needs to be decent.
  • On successful delivery, the hauler immediately get both the reward and the collateral paid out from the money in escrow.

Feel free to pick apart and suggest your own ideas for a hauling service system. :)

Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Are you a truck driver inrl as well?
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Are you a truck driver inrl as well?

    Not at all. :smile: I am inspired by the Eve Online system mainly.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The problem with this as is, is that it has a real impact on the economic capability of real people.

    Yes, 'being able to blacklist people' helps, and 'only going with trusted providers' is great, but things happen.

    For example, my Corporation (minor Faction) in Elite Dangerous often offers hauling missions. The game isn't so realistic that 'failing to deliver these' results in serious issues for the supply lines, but I am capable of accepting the mission, putting 500+ tons of something valuable in the cargo hold of my biggest transport ship...

    And then becoming unable to log in for days due to some random thing.

    When I return, my Corporation fines me, and I now have 500 tons of something that is 'useless' because reasons (not unrealistic, maybe it was only useful when used within a timeframe). I can sell it on a Black Market if there is one nearby, but until I do, it's counted as 'Stolen' merchandise. Let's not even bother with that part, I mention it for thoroughness.

    My Corporation didn't get the benefit from this being transported, because I wasn't able to, but I have the goods, and no one else can 'just take them'.

    If I get attacked by pirates (often contracted explicitly to intercept the delivery) I can fight them or run from them, but they delay things if I fight them, and if there are enough of them or strong enough, I have to 'stop and wait for allies' since I don't metagame enough to make NPC pirates trivial, which has an obvious-ish parallel in Ashes since PvP would be even more important.

    Failing these missions used to impact the Faction directly (Economy, Security, other influence to other statuses). Insert a bunch of people basically 'zerging' the concept of 'let's all accept missions for this enemy corporation and then ditch them and never complete them'.

    This was changed, obviously. So now it's unrealistic, but it's better gameplay.

    Something to bear in mind. I'm not arguing against this, neither the overall fact that it could be implemented nor 'how viable it would be'.

    I can only say I'd never use it because I don't have much luck and even less faith in people, and the drama emergent from 'not being able to tell the difference between a hostile actor who took your contract to sabotage your operations' and 'someone whose internet died or who couldn't gather their guildmates to protect the shipment because someone else's internet died would not be the type of drama I'd be interested in experiencing in Ashes.

    I think it would be a cool endgame activity for PvP-ers if they were okay with the gameplay of 'log on for half hour today prepping to be attacked and then have a peaceful trip walking slowly through a countryside'. Pretty sure this is the ideal for many of my group.

    I don't think we'd actually risk 'getting an entire guild mad enough to attack us because we failed a delivery because our Tank had critical work stuff to do' (our Tank's critical work stuff is $very$ $very$ critical when it happens).

    I can't think of anything offhand related to systems that would make us willing to risk it, either. I'll let you know if I do.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • +1 for adapting the Eve courier contracts system into Ashes.

    So I can focus on my number crunching & spreadsheet weaving while others do the actual hauling for me :)
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2021
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?
    Azherae wrote: »
    The problem with this as is, is that it has a real impact on the economic capability of real people.

    Why is that a problem? In a way, that's sort of the whole point.
    Azherae wrote: »
    I can't think of anything offhand related to systems that would make us willing to risk it, either. I'll let you know if I do.

    As a merchant, this system mitigates risk at the cost of lower reward. You are always guaranteed at least the collateral value paid to you if the cargo is lost. If you have to haul it yourself you'll obviously make more money upon successful trip, but you can also lose it all.

    As the hauler the risks are greater no doubt, but this is also about providing more avenues for gameplay that affects the game in an important way, and is a decent source of income for the people who like that lifestyle.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?
    Azherae wrote: »
    The problem with this as is, is that it has a real impact on the economic capability of real people.

    Why is that a problem? In a way, that's sort of the whole point.
    Azherae wrote: »
    I can't think of anything offhand related to systems that would make us willing to risk it, either. I'll let you know if I do.

    As a merchant, this system mitigates risk at the cost of lower reward. You are always guaranteed at least the collateral value paid to you if the cargo is lost. If you have to haul it yourself you'll obviously make more money upon successful trip, but you can also lose it all.

    As the hauler the risks are greater no doubt, but this is also about providing more avenues for gameplay that affects the game in an important way, and is a decent source of income for the people who like that lifestyle.

    Just to be clear, nothing in my post seemed to you to be counterpoints to the likelihood of use of the system by haulers?

    I thought I was explaining 'the problem', if I failed, I'd appreciate knowing.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Azherae wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?
    Azherae wrote: »
    The problem with this as is, is that it has a real impact on the economic capability of real people.

    Why is that a problem? In a way, that's sort of the whole point.
    Azherae wrote: »
    I can't think of anything offhand related to systems that would make us willing to risk it, either. I'll let you know if I do.

    As a merchant, this system mitigates risk at the cost of lower reward. You are always guaranteed at least the collateral value paid to you if the cargo is lost. If you have to haul it yourself you'll obviously make more money upon successful trip, but you can also lose it all.

    As the hauler the risks are greater no doubt, but this is also about providing more avenues for gameplay that affects the game in an important way, and is a decent source of income for the people who like that lifestyle.

    Just to be clear, nothing in my post seemed to you to be counterpoints to the likelihood of use of the system by haulers?

    I thought I was explaining 'the problem', if I failed, I'd appreciate knowing.

    Not really no :smile:

    You are describing something like an NPC created mission, and a scenario where you can't unload your goods because they are treated as stolen by the game, and how NPC pirates come and try to stop you etc. It's very different in important ways.

    My suggested system is 100% player driven (apart from the escrow part). There are no NPCs spawning to stop the shipment, no faction rep to gain or lose. There are only real goods with a real value that the hauler can choose to sell instead of delivering, and your reputation with other players on the server. As for the time constraints, well, if you are serious about hauling, you also take that part seriously. If you have a job in RL where you have to drop everything at a seconds notice, don't be a hauler. Or anything in RL where there is a good chance you'll be interrupted a lot. The smart hauler makes sure they have ample time to deliver, even if something goes a little wrong.

    To amend my OP a little, I think it should be possible to list contracts only for specific players or guilds to accept. So as the merchant you would contact them first, agree on the details, and then you list it and they accept and do the hauling.

    In Eve Online there are some well known corporations that people trust because they have been proven trustworthy over time. Red Frog Freight, Black Frog Logistics, Push Industries, to name a few. It's a system that works, and it's partly trust based sure, but there is also that collateral that helps ensure that trust.

    For the hauler, yeah there is risk, but that's just part of the thrill of the job. It's certainly not for everyone. Sure, shit happens and cargo may be lost or the deadline missed, but that's why there is collateral as well as a decent reward for successful delivery. If it's only a matter of a missed deadline, the hauler could contact the merchant and figure out a deal anyway, where the hauler gets the collateral back for handing over the goods at the drop off point, for example. Failing that, the hauler can sell the items themselves and earn the money back that way.

    There might be some drama if a shipment is lost, sure, but that's the same for mercenary guilds hired to help attack or defend a node, or anything else really where a service is rendered that might not always succeed. The good haulers can blacklist troublesome merchants as well if they desire, leaving them to haul their own goods, or having to hire haulers of less repute.

    So no, I don't really see your points be real counterpoints other than perhaps we can agree that hauling isn't for everyone. But that is true of most activities in the game. Some of your points (the NPC mission/faction/pirate parts) don't apply at all. :)
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?
    Azherae wrote: »
    The problem with this as is, is that it has a real impact on the economic capability of real people.

    Why is that a problem? In a way, that's sort of the whole point.
    Azherae wrote: »
    I can't think of anything offhand related to systems that would make us willing to risk it, either. I'll let you know if I do.

    As a merchant, this system mitigates risk at the cost of lower reward. You are always guaranteed at least the collateral value paid to you if the cargo is lost. If you have to haul it yourself you'll obviously make more money upon successful trip, but you can also lose it all.

    As the hauler the risks are greater no doubt, but this is also about providing more avenues for gameplay that affects the game in an important way, and is a decent source of income for the people who like that lifestyle.

    Just to be clear, nothing in my post seemed to you to be counterpoints to the likelihood of use of the system by haulers?

    I thought I was explaining 'the problem', if I failed, I'd appreciate knowing.

    Not really no :smile:

    You are describing something like an NPC created mission, and a scenario where you can't unload your goods because they are treated as stolen by the game, and how NPC pirates come and try to stop you etc. It's very different in important ways.

    My suggested system is 100% player driven (apart from the escrow part). There are no NPCs spawning to stop the shipment, no faction rep to gain or lose. There are only real goods with a real value that the hauler can choose to sell instead of delivering, and your reputation with other players on the server. As for the time constraints, well, if you are serious about hauling, you also take that part seriously. If you have a job in RL where you have to drop everything at a seconds notice, don't be a hauler. Or anything in RL where there is a good chance you'll be interrupted a lot. The smart hauler makes sure they have ample time to deliver, even if something goes a little wrong.

    To amend my OP a little, I think it should be possible to list contracts only for specific players or guilds to accept. So as the merchant you would contact them first, agree on the details, and then you list it and they accept and do the hauling.

    In Eve Online there are some well known corporations that people trust because they have been proven trustworthy over time. Red Frog Freight, Black Frog Logistics, Push Industries, to name a few. It's a system that works, and it's partly trust based sure, but there is also that collateral that helps ensure that trust.

    For the hauler, yeah there is risk, but that's just part of the thrill of the job. It's certainly not for everyone. Sure, shit happens and cargo may be lost or the deadline missed, but that's why there is collateral as well as a decent reward for successful delivery. If it's only a matter of a missed deadline, the hauler could contact the merchant and figure out a deal anyway, where the hauler gets the collateral back for handing over the goods at the drop off point, for example. Failing that, the hauler can sell the items themselves and earn the money back that way.

    There might be some drama if a shipment is lost, sure, but that's the same for mercenary guilds hired to help attack or defend a node, or anything else really where a service is rendered that might not always succeed. The good haulers can blacklist troublesome merchants as well if they desire, leaving them to haul their own goods, or having to hire haulers of less repute.

    So no, I don't really see your points be real counterpoints other than perhaps we can agree that hauling isn't for everyone. But that is true of most activities in the game. Some of your points (the NPC mission/faction/pirate parts) don't apply at all. :)

    Understood. Thank you very much.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?

    Yeah!
    Maybe you can have multiple tiers for caravan sizes/rewards?
    Maybe the skills let you combine 2 contracts into one trip with a pit-stop?
    Or it unlocks some sort of insurance scheme, upgraded guards, split the load across a train of caravans?
    Or even buffs to your own stats specifically when participating in caravan content only?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • The contracts and the billboard system the Wiki talks about are some pretty awesome concepts.

    I like that AoC has goals like these, for in-game content and player inter-dependency.



  • I’d run a syndicate of guild infiltrators for top-end hauling guilds to find out times and locations of high end caravans, then secretly auction those plans to high end guilds that rob caravans.

    This could be very lucrative.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2021
    maouw wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    Hmm, I feel like this could be one of the artisan processing classes.

    Hrm, like how? Added speed/defense of caravan? Artisan tree XP gained by successfully completed contracts?

    Yeah!
    Maybe you can have multiple tiers for caravan sizes/rewards?
    Maybe the skills let you combine 2 contracts into one trip with a pit-stop?
    Or it unlocks some sort of insurance scheme, upgraded guards, split the load across a train of caravans?
    Or even buffs to your own stats specifically when participating in caravan content only?

    The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me to do something like the Mariner classes. Make a Caravaneer class.

    If you go to the 36:05 mark they talk about the mariner classes and it honestly fits pretty perfectly if they do that for caravans too.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbyxRdB6dE&t=2165s

    Caravans are single-character use at the moment it seems, but why not create bigger caravans with a "magic gun" on top and a dedicated gunner? At the cost of speed and maneuverability of course, meaning they might have to stick to the roads more. But even if they want to keep it single-character use, let people train the Caravaneer appropriate skills. Since caravans can go on water too, it just meshes perfectly with the Mariner class system.
  • Nerror wrote: »
    I would love to see a proper system in the game for haulers. As in, players who specialize in transporting goods from point A to point B. Not merchants who transport their own goods mind you, but players/guilds the merchants can open contracts with to move those goods. The caravan system will be the lifeblood of the economy and node development of the game, and I think it should be possible to "make a living" of doing that. It fits the risk vs. reward philosophy perfectly IMO.

    How would you guys design such a system with what we know of Ashes right now?

    Obviously we need a system for listing and accepting contracts. A bulletin board near the caravan master in the node perhaps. The player listing the contract will be doing the following:
    • Determine a pickup point and drop off point.
    • Packaging the goods into a container. The size of the container should be able to be set into certain categories: Mule size containers (base tier, or with tier 1, 2 or 3 cargo size upgrades), or caravan size containers with the same tier size choices. The contents of the containers should not be hidden IMO.
    • Set a collateral amount for the goods in case the transport fails. This is usually 100% or more of the total value of the goods in the package. I would probably set it to 110% myself.
    • Set the reward for successful delivery. This is usually based on the amount of the collateral and the distance it needs to go. The money is taken from the player up front and placed in escrow by the game.
    • Set a time frame for the delivery. A day, a week, or whatever is realistic. If the goods aren't delivered in time, the player listing the contract will get the collateral paid out, but will obviously not be getting the goods back.
    • I would also like to see some sort of black-listing function, where the player can ban specific other players or guilds from accepting the contracts. For example, people who in the past have proven unreliable.

    For the hauler, the player accepting the contract, they will be doing the following:
    • Check the bulletin boards for available contracts. I think they should be able to sort by distance, container size, reward and time left in case there are many contracts open. Some sort of visual representation on the map of the pickup and drop off points would be ideal.
    • If one or more contracts seem good, they accept and the collateral is paid immediately out of pocket and put into escrow by the game.
    • The hauler now has free reigns in terms of picking up any packages and delivering them within the time frame given. For long hauls, I think it should be possible to drop off the packages in the warehouse in a node along the way, and then continue the trek the day after.
    • If the hauler accepts several mule-sized contracts, it should be possible to load them all into one caravan and deliver them one by one.
    • If delivery time is exceeded, the hauler forfeits the collateral they paid and any rewards, and probably get a bad reputation, but they keep the goods.
    • If the hauler is attacked and the mule/caravan is destroyed, they lose everything obviously, so the reward for success needs to be decent.
    • On successful delivery, the hauler immediately get both the reward and the collateral paid out from the money in escrow.

    Feel free to pick apart and suggest your own ideas for a hauling service system. :)

    I kind of think dedicating a whole system to this would be Overkill. You could probably just add extra functionality into a mercenary system for specifically transporting or escorting transports as mercenary missions/jobs. Or at least I've been picturing stuff like this as the type of thing that would populate the local jobs board.
  • JhorenJhoren Member
    edited January 2022
    I think this would be perfect for the game. I liked the similar system in Eve Online, and I think the economic system in AoC is close enough that it fits well.
  • Even if the game doesn't officially integrate it into the systems there is nothing to keep the players from creating this on a server-by-server basis. You could advertise on the forums your service. Merchants could DM the details to the courier. You could try to do your runs at 3 am or when there are less people playing to potentially have a safer run. The courier guild would limit who knew when the run was starting to limit Crow's spies. I think it is an interesting concept. I am curious if a player could upgrade the caravan and get some kind of deluxe version with more armor and hit points.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I AM SO HAPPY WE ARE GETTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS! <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

    Check out the very beginning of the dev stream from today:
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