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New combat ability type: CC counter attack

George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
edited September 29 in General Discussion
Who knows what it will look like? Nobody.

But for the present time, between A1 and A2, here is an idea.

CCs are a cool tool. I like all the ways we find CCs in skills, whether it is a plain CC ability, dmg + CC, buff + CC, debuff + CC.

(What I dont like is when developers like the ones in eso give a class one ability that:
CCs
Damages
AoE
Unblockable
Teleport
No Cooldown
Absorb incoming ranged dmg)


Many times mmos end up being who is going to get CCed first. This makes the game not fun for some.
Personally I have a much bigger issue with AoEs than CCs.

We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
What if there was a NEW type?
CC counter?

Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

CCs could change in the future. Be more telegraphed. And so, during a fight people would think about how to place a CC to an enemy without being countered.

I think it would make for a fun gameplay.


Lastly, CC skills and counters (ranged or melee) would have to have appropriate cooldowns, in order to avoid making combat just about countering CCs.

Comments

  • Aye, some games totally overkill CC's and what can be done with them. Usually it's fine - but only *if* they find the right balance for self-releases and escapes.

    I'd be all good with it if PvP just didn't feature CCs. The do have their uses with NPCs, though.



  • I'd be all good with it if PvP just didn't feature CCs. The do have their uses with NPCs, though.

    I think CC is an essential part to PvP, otherwise it's just who does the most damage first. CC lets you disengage, position, and plan ahead.
    We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
    What if there was a NEW type?
    CC counter?

    Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

    CCs could change in the future. Be more telegraphed. And so, during a fight people would think about how to place a CC to an enemy without being countered.

    I think it would make for a fun gameplay.


    Lastly, CC skills and counters (ranged or melee) would have to have appropriate cooldowns, in order to avoid making combat just about countering CCs.

    Intrepid mentioned they're working on more active counter type abilities, like active blocking. I hope something like this makes it into the game. It adds another layer of complexity to the combat which makes it more strategical.

    I hope every class has the possibility of specing into at least one hard cc and one soft cc.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old
    edited September 28
    McShave wrote: »
    I'd be all good with it if PvP just didn't feature CCs. The do have their uses with NPCs, though.

    I think CC is an essential part to PvP, otherwise it's just who does the most damage first. CC lets you disengage, position, and plan ahead.
    We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
    What if there was a NEW type?
    CC counter?

    Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

    CCs could change in the future. Be more telegraphed. And so, during a fight people would think about how to place a CC to an enemy without being countered.

    I think it would make for a fun gameplay.


    Lastly, CC skills and counters (ranged or melee) would have to have appropriate cooldowns, in order to avoid making combat just about countering CCs.

    Intrepid mentioned they're working on more active counter type abilities, like active blocking. I hope something like this makes it into the game. It adds another layer of complexity to the combat which makes it more strategical.

    I hope every class has the possibility of specing into at least one hard cc and one soft cc.

    'an essential part of pvp' ?
    To disengage, to position, plan for a Backstab?

    Sounds like something a 1v1 WoW rogue would say. Fess up.


    Planning ahead is not attacking someone who is stronger, that is a fail in strategy.
    CCs allow it to work by removing the other players ability, basically hit the Pause button on his game. Its cheap. Sure its 'lolz' and a win for the one, buts its still cheap.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old
    Who knows what it will look like? Nobody.

    But for the present time, between A1 and A2, here is an idea.

    CCs are a cool tool. I like all the ways we find CCs in skills, whether it is a plain CC ability, dmg + CC, buff + CC, debuff + CC.

    (What I dont like is when developers like the ones in eso give a class one ability that:
    CCs
    Damages
    AoE
    Unblockable
    Teleport
    No Cooldown
    Absorb incoming ranged dmg)


    Many times mmos end up being who is going to get CCed first. This makes the game not fun for some.
    Personally I have a much bigger issue with AoEs than CCs.

    We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
    What if there was a NEW type?
    CC counter?

    Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

    CCs could change in the future. Be more telegraphed. And so, during a fight people would think about how to place a CC to an enemy without being countered.

    I think it would make for a fun gameplay.


    Lastly, CC skills and counters (ranged or melee) would have to have appropriate cooldowns, in order to avoid making combat just about countering CCs.

    So the CC-reliant class attacks players hoping they don't have a counter. When the majority of players spend pts on the counter, the CC-reliant class whines they are underpowered and unloved.
    Get buffed. Revel in the lolz
    Another counter is released. Players spend pts on it.
    More whining. More buffs, more counters. More whine.

    Seen it.

    Why not just DESIGN CCs not to be an I-Win button or so polarizing?
    Removing player agency is BS.

    No class should be CC-reliant, its a setup for failure in one way or another.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    You are the only one mentioning "CC-reliant" classes.

    I dont think you understood anything from this topic.
  • pyreal wrote: »
    CCs allow it to work by removing the other players ability, basically hit the Pause button on his game. Its cheap. Sure its 'lolz' and a win for the one, buts its still cheap.

    Steven said that is should take a player 30 seconds to kill someone in combat. So if you stun them for a second or 2, thats not really going to win you the fight. Also if everyone can get a CC ability, then everything is fair. It just depends on how you build your character and if you choose to add a CC ability to your kit.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I don't think any class should be an expert in CC. I think it should be available to all classes in various forms, to the same extent. The rogue cuts your hamstrings, the ranger drops a trap, the cleric stuns you with a bolt of holy light, the mage covers your feet with ice, the fighter bonks you on the head, etc.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 29
    My take on CC's is that the longest hard CC in a game should be 10% of the average TTK in the game (actual average - as best as that can be measures - not the developers intended TTK).

    From there, any player that is hit by a hard CC should then have an immunity to all hard CC for a period of at least three times the actual duration of the CC they just had on them (meaning that even if they can break out of it, they may opt to not break in order to give them a longer immunity).

    Then you make sure all hard CC has a cooldown of at least 15 times its duration (so a three second stun would have at least a 45 second cooldown), limit hard CC to one per character (other than CC specialist classes like tanks and bards) and you have a game with CC that can be used effectively, but will never be the deciding factor in a fight.
  • McShave wrote: »
    I'd be all good with it if PvP just didn't feature CCs. The do have their uses with NPCs, though.

    I think CC is an essential part to PvP, otherwise it's just who does the most damage first. CC lets you disengage, position, and plan ahead.
    We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
    What if there was a NEW type?
    CC counter?

    Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

    CCs could change in the future. Be more telegraphed. And so, during a fight people would think about how to place a CC to an enemy without being countered.

    I think it would make for a fun gameplay.


    Lastly, CC skills and counters (ranged or melee) would have to have appropriate cooldowns, in order to avoid making combat just about countering CCs.

    Intrepid mentioned they're working on more active counter type abilities, like active blocking. I hope something like this makes it into the game. It adds another layer of complexity to the combat which makes it more strategical.

    I hope every class has the possibility of specing into at least one hard cc and one soft cc.


    Agreed …… combine the fluidity of BDO and the buff and burst/combo style of ESO and you will have the best combat on the market.

    Block, roll dodge/evade…. , (block at the exact moment in coming damage from a respective dmg type melee/range would counter/ reflect that damage back at the attacker) Spells should not be able to be countered except by a “counter spell” “reflective bubble” but only blocked to reduce damage taken from that spell…. CC spells should be blockable reward players for recognizing their enemies “class CC moves” Each class type should have their own specific CC and each weapon type as well…. CC with diminished returns…. CC immunity spells… Getting constantly stunned after you buff for a combo IS SHIT…….

    1 hard cc and 1 snare per archetype pls

    Just suggestions haven’t seen any footage or gameplay of any actual combat yet… just a bunch of low levels spamming their base skills and L/H attacks….

    The combat will make or break this game for me personally All the other stuff is awesome but with out competitive FUN pvp and combat…. It’s all for nothing
  • Personally I have a much bigger issue with AoEs than CCs.

    All aboard the Cyrodiil AoE Train! Choo-chooooo!
  • If there is no CC then DPS will have free reign. Though, I don’t believe there should be a saturation of CC between all the classes. WoW pvp over the years became “everyone has cc” and it just benefited the DPS because they could do more in their version of a CC window than let’s say a tank who might have more CC options but not the damage. Imo, tank types are okay with more CC than others because their designed to peel/protect not pew pew murder
  • I'm Pro-Bard. Whenever there is talk of CC's being handed out to other Archetypes I get concerned that it will make the Bard irrelevant. It is far too early to tell whether this will be an issue or not, we need to wait for late A2 / Beta. I would expect that many of the CC abilities of other Archetypes will be downgraded (with associated grumbling!) just before the Bard is showcased, otherwise the Bard showcase would be "here is an archetype that you do not need".

    With the same logic, I don't see the need for Bard abilities to allow them to compete in any significant way as a Healer, Tank, melee dps, ranged dps, AOE dps, burst dps, Stealth or Summoner.

    It's all about the balance; a small smattering of a different archetypes core abilities adds flexibility, too much makes some archetypes redundant.
  • McMackMuck wrote: »
    I'm Pro-Bard.

    giphy.gif
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    None of these comments were relevant to the topic. 100% rate irrelevancy.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hey, so I think your idea is pretty similar to what Yomi combat design is about:

    Rock < Paper < Scissors < Rock

    or in fighting games like SSB:

    Block/Dodge/Parry < Grab < Attack < Block/Dodge/Parry

    and again in hitstop design:

    light attack < block < heavy attack < light attack


    I guess my question is: if you had a cc-counter, what would it do if you successfully countered?
    1hko the opponent?
    Reverse the cc onto the opponent?
    Apply a debuff to the opponent?
    Nullify damage?
    still applies damage, but cancels the cc component?

    What would make it different from a cleanse ability? Or a dodge/block? Or a tank's resistance to cc?

    I like where this is going - MMO combat can be greatly improved.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    @George Black - what’s a concrete example of a cc and a counter cc?

    Would this be like you attempt to blind me with a color spray and I turn my back quickly?
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    We have many types of abilities in addition to CCs.
    What if there was a NEW type?
    CC counter?

    Classes or weapons could have in there trees CC counters. More tools for more gameplay.

    Can you give an example of one or more CC counters. What exactly would they do?

    Is it an ability like the one the LOTRO Burglar had back when I played? When they got stunned they could fire off an ability that broke the stun and in turn knocked down the enemy within a short radius.

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