McShave wrote: » despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage
Gilikoth wrote: » @JustVine exactly, this is why I want to have this conversation now.@Noaani it's fine that there are a lot of MMOs that have tanks go OOM, I'm just personally not a fan of how it feels because I love the feel of build and spend mechanics. I just want to have a class or play style that fits what I like in an MMO. I don't care really how they go about it but I want my character to feel like a raging barbarian or something akin to it. It could be through an active ability, a passive ability, or a resource. Just something that allows me to take the damage I'm taking or the damage I'm dealing to generate the resource I use for my abilities.@Atama I'm also down with the sacrifice hp for mana regeneration as well, keeps with the risk and reward theme.
CruelCrusader wrote: » bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps.
Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps. What are you basing this on? This hasn’t been demonstrated so far in what they’ve shown us.
CruelCrusader wrote: » Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps. What are you basing this on? This hasn’t been demonstrated so far in what they’ve shown us. fair point, maybe im generalizing to much with other MMOs on the market. but it removes a level of enjoyment to play a warrior like you would a mage, like a ranger, like a summoner.. if there is no other element to how each class functions differently then there really isnt any aspect to master and isn't intellectually challenging. your just spamming skills in a META order like you would with any other class.. that kind of PvP is braindead and uninteresting..
Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps. What are you basing this on? This hasn’t been demonstrated so far in what they’ve shown us. fair point, maybe im generalizing to much with other MMOs on the market. but it removes a level of enjoyment to play a warrior like you would a mage, like a ranger, like a summoner.. if there is no other element to how each class functions differently then there really isnt any aspect to master and isn't intellectually challenging. your just spamming skills in a META order like you would with any other class.. that kind of PvP is braindead and uninteresting.. I’ll tell you this much… I played all 3 classes in Alpha 1 and they played very differently. I greatly favored the Mage play style over the other two (to my surprise; it was the class I was least interested in). What makes them different is the skills you have. They were different enough that I had a strong preference for one over the other.
CruelCrusader wrote: » Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » Atama wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps. What are you basing this on? This hasn’t been demonstrated so far in what they’ve shown us. fair point, maybe im generalizing to much with other MMOs on the market. but it removes a level of enjoyment to play a warrior like you would a mage, like a ranger, like a summoner.. if there is no other element to how each class functions differently then there really isnt any aspect to master and isn't intellectually challenging. your just spamming skills in a META order like you would with any other class.. that kind of PvP is braindead and uninteresting.. I’ll tell you this much… I played all 3 classes in Alpha 1 and they played very differently. I greatly favored the Mage play style over the other two (to my surprise; it was the class I was least interested in). What makes them different is the skills you have. They were different enough that I had a strong preference for one over the other. this kinda proves my point. if as a mage you syphon my mana to replenish your own and in doing so increases my rage, you have less chance to keep me rooted and at a safe distance. it will force you to rethink your strategy. making the fight that much more interesting. where as if all i have is mana and you only need to syphon my mana to stop me from casting it decentivizes me to keep playing tank in a pvp setting. because im powerless against a mage. (edit) everyone wants to be in power. so as i said before everyone will gravitate to MAGES, summoners and rouges. 8 or 64 or 312 variations is irrelevant. those who are easiest to be strongest with will be the favored choice by all. the alternative is people who want to only play tank but only get destroyed whenever they play will not return to the game. they will find another game where tanks are more impactful.
maouw wrote: » IMO this is more a problem with most MMO's giving Tanks nothing but "threat/hate" mechanics to do tanking. If you want to talk legitimate skirmishing, MOBAs have lots to say: they have both tanks that use mana and tanks that don't - and these tanks are all competitively viable in a PvP team skirmish.
CruelCrusader wrote: » maouw wrote: » IMO this is more a problem with most MMO's giving Tanks nothing but "threat/hate" mechanics to do tanking. If you want to talk legitimate skirmishing, MOBAs have lots to say: they have both tanks that use mana and tanks that don't - and these tanks are all competitively viable in a PvP team skirmish. are MOBAs applicable to MMOs? i was trying to stay relevant to the genre. but if you didnt have the aggro mechanic then it would throw everything out of wack. it would be like bless unleashed that makes no use of tanks because there is no aggro mechanic. whatever you're fighting will just jump to whomever. and if thats the case then once again you'll have people opting to go a DPS class.. even if you went tank/rouge or tank/ranger (which i would imagine have the best synergy to output high dps) would still be no match in dps output for what a mage/mage, mage/summoner or summoner/mage can do. even if you applied MOBA mechanic for mobs to attack whoever is closest then fighters and rouges are a risk factor because they can be focused by the mobs instead of tank. making those less desirable to be picked for raids/dungeons.
CruelCrusader wrote: » yea threat has no influence in PvP. but mobas arn't designed to trade blows for long periods like MMO.
JustVine wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » yea threat has no influence in PvP. but mobas arn't designed to trade blows for long periods like MMO. What do you mean by this exactly? It is not very clear to me.
CruelCrusader wrote: » JustVine wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » yea threat has no influence in PvP. but mobas arn't designed to trade blows for long periods like MMO. What do you mean by this exactly? It is not very clear to me. MOBAs are built to be much more convenient in being able to burst champions and have 1 sided fights. especially if your caught off guard. in an MMO you really need to be spaced out to have a one sided fight in the same sense. if your just caught off guard and an enemy bursts you there is much more leeway in an MMO to make a comeback.
beaushinkle wrote: » At a game design level, here's how mana operates: You start at full mana, and so you have all of your options, but each of your options costs mana and creates tension. As you spend your mana, you create more and more decision tension until you have low mana, and then your decisions matter a lot. Eventually, you have "1 spell left", and have to spend it wisely. Often, you'll be given high-dps, low damage-per-mana spells, and low dps, high damage-per-mana spells (and the same thing for healing). That way, you change how you play depending on how long you expect an encounter to take. Add in cooldowns that let you manage you mana in some way and you have yourself an interesting puzzle. You can model "energy" with mana. Give a character 100 max mana (or whatever multiple of that). Make them regenerate 10 (or whatever multiple of that) mana per second flat. Boom, that's energy, except it's blue. At a game design level, here's how rage operates: You start a zero rage, and so you have none of your options. You have to connect with something and build rage, and then once you have it, you spend it the same way that you generally spend mana, but you cycle it in/out much more quickly. You typically have abilities that do great damage-per-rage, but they cost a lot of rage, so they make you wait until you have more rage, so they're riskier to wait for, or you'll have abilities that do less damage-per-rage, but they have lower cooldowns and cost less rage, so they're less risky. Each time you spend your rage on a big damage ability, you don't have rage to spend on a defensive or a utility, and have to rebuild that rage by continuing to do damage somehow, so it creates constant dynamic gameplay and decisionmaking. Mana, on the other hand, you have your juice until it runs out, and then you have to sit down and drink which is boring. You can model "rage" with mana. Give a character 100 max mana and a debuff that makes them constantly lose 3 mana per second when they're out of combat. Make their attacks grant mana on hit relative to how much damage they do. Make them gain mana when they take damage. Boom, that's rage, except it's blue. I think that mana is pretty outdated, and that if we were to start from scratch and try to come up with a fun way to play games together in coop tank/healer/dps settings, a system like mana where you start with all of your resources and slowly exhaust them isn't what we'd settle on. I think the ramp-up into decisions design you get with rage makes way more sense and leads to more interesting decisions, and can be applied to every archetype. my 2c edit: elaborating a little bit more Let's get rid of the mana/energy/rage concepts for a second and talk instead about how we want our games to operate, and how we want combat to ebb and flow. Do we want players to be able to repeatedly be able to use their best attack, or should there be some sort of cost for doing so? Should players be able to unload their best attack from the very beginning, or would you like some classes to have to build up to that? Should players be able to sustain damage forever, or do we want them to eventually run out of juice? How about healing? How about tanking? Answering my own questions: I think there should definitely be some sort of system that prevents a player from repeatedly using their best attack. A cooldown is the brute-force solution to this. Once you use that attack, you can't use it again for X seconds. Making it mana-inefficient is another solution. Making it cost a resource that someone else generates (like rage or combo points or whatever) is another solution. Making it interruptable, telegraphed, risky, etc is also really cool. I also prefer if different builds have a lot of diversity in how their damage is front-loaded. Mana classes with cooldowns tend to be front-loaded. You start with full mana and all of your abilities are off cooldown, so you can press literally any button - might as well press your best ones. Back-loaded classes that start with few options and build up to more decision points and increasing damage are also really cool, and I think the design space is also more interesting, though I confess this might be biased personal preference. I like that how when you back-load damage, it makes the gameplay curve smoother, more predictable, but also because of that, allows you to condition opponents. Frontloaded gameplay design degenerates into slamming damage into burst windows and hectic cooldown spamming, followed by kiting until cooldowns are back up. I think that the game feels better to play if players aren't forced to take breaks to sit down and eat/drink. Let me grind. Let me just hammer through this dungeon. This means finding other ways to make encounters difficult for healers other than making them eventually run out of mana.
maouw wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » JustVine wrote: » CruelCrusader wrote: » yea threat has no influence in PvP. but mobas arn't designed to trade blows for long periods like MMO. What do you mean by this exactly? It is not very clear to me. MOBAs are built to be much more convenient in being able to burst champions and have 1 sided fights. especially if your caught off guard. in an MMO you really need to be spaced out to have a one sided fight in the same sense. if your just caught off guard and an enemy bursts you there is much more leeway in an MMO to make a comeback. I'm not sure I agree with this - catching opponents off-guard is ONE avenue for a win condition. In LoL, the overarching win condition revolves around making sure everyone is ready to engage around PvE objectives, which is where you get proper 5v5 faceoffs in EVERY game with a serious team. There are also plenty of examples of mid-fight comebacks, 1v2 outplays, etc. How does a slower pace of fighting change this dynamic?