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Comments
are MOBAs applicable to MMOs? i was trying to stay relevant to the genre.
but if you didnt have the aggro mechanic then it would throw everything out of wack. it would be like bless unleashed that makes no use of tanks because there is no aggro mechanic. whatever you're fighting will just jump to whomever. and if thats the case then once again you'll have people opting to go a DPS class.. even if you went tank/rouge or tank/ranger (which i would imagine have the best synergy to output high dps) would still be no match in dps output for what a mage/mage, mage/summoner or summoner/mage can do.
even if you applied MOBA mechanic for mobs to attack whoever is closest then fighters and rouges are a risk factor because they can be focused by the mobs instead of tank. making those less desirable to be picked for raids/dungeons.
Hey man,
first let's establish if we want to talk about the PvP aspect more or the PvE aspect more? Because you and I both know threat mechanics suck in PvP - hence I brought MOBAs into the conversation.
Careful, Tulnar haters don't need much to work with!
What do you mean by this exactly? It is not very clear to me.
MOBAs are built to be much more convenient in being able to burst champions and have 1 sided fights. especially if your caught off guard. in an MMO you really need to be spaced out to have a one sided fight in the same sense.
if your just caught off guard and an enemy bursts you there is much more leeway in an MMO to make a comeback.
I'm not sure I agree with this - catching opponents off-guard is ONE avenue for a win condition.
In LoL, the overarching win condition revolves around making sure everyone is ready to engage around PvE objectives, which is where you get proper 5v5 faceoffs in EVERY game with a serious team.
There are also plenty of examples of mid-fight comebacks, 1v2 outplays, etc.
How does a slower pace of fighting change this dynamic?
You start at full mana, and so you have all of your options, but each of your options costs mana and creates tension. As you spend your mana, you create more and more decision tension until you have low mana, and then your decisions matter a lot. Eventually, you have "1 spell left", and have to spend it wisely.
Often, you'll be given high-dps, low damage-per-mana spells, and low dps, high damage-per-mana spells (and the same thing for healing). That way, you change how you play depending on how long you expect an encounter to take. Add in cooldowns that let you manage you mana in some way and you have yourself an interesting puzzle.
You can model "energy" with mana. Give a character 100 max mana (or whatever multiple of that). Make them regenerate 10 (or whatever multiple of that) mana per second flat. Boom, that's energy, except it's blue.
At a game design level, here's how rage operates:
You start at zero rage, and so you have none of your options. You have to connect with something and build rage, and then once you have it, you spend it the same way that you generally spend mana, but you cycle it in/out much more quickly. You typically have abilities that do great damage-per-rage, but they cost a lot of rage, so they make you wait until you have more rage, so they're riskier to wait for, or you'll have abilities that do less damage-per-rage, but they have lower cooldowns and cost less rage, so they're less risky. Each time you spend your rage on a big damage ability, you don't have rage to spend on a defensive or a utility, and have to rebuild that rage by continuing to do damage somehow, so it creates constant dynamic gameplay and decisionmaking. Mana, on the other hand, you have your juice until it runs out, and then you have to sit down and drink which is boring.
You can model "rage" with mana. Give a character 100 max mana and a debuff that makes them constantly lose 3 mana per second when they're out of combat. Make their attacks grant mana on hit relative to how much damage they do. Make them gain mana when they take damage. Boom, that's rage, except it's blue.
I think that mana is pretty outdated, and that if we were to start from scratch and try to come up with a fun way to play games together in coop tank/healer/dps settings, a system like mana where you start with all of your resources and slowly exhaust them isn't what we'd settle on. I think the ramp-up into decisions design you get with rage makes way more sense and leads to more interesting decisions, and can be applied to every archetype.
my 2c
edit:
elaborating a little bit more
Let's get rid of the mana/energy/rage concepts for a second and talk instead about how we want our games to operate, and how we want combat to ebb and flow.
Do we want players to be able to repeatedly be able to use their best attack, or should there be some sort of cost for doing so?
Should players be able to unload their best attack from the very beginning, or would you like some classes to have to build up to that?
Should players be able to sustain damage forever, or do we want them to eventually run out of juice? How about healing? How about tanking?
Answering my own questions: I think there should definitely be some sort of system that prevents a player from repeatedly using their best attack. A cooldown is the brute-force solution to this. Once you use that attack, you can't use it again for X seconds. Making it mana-inefficient is another solution. Making it cost a resource that something else generates (like rage or combo points or whatever) is another solution. Making it interruptable, telegraphed, risky, etc is also really cool.
I also prefer if different builds have a lot of diversity in how their damage is front-loaded. Mana classes with cooldowns tend to be front-loaded. You start with full mana and all of your abilities are off cooldown, so you can press literally any button - might as well press your best ones. Back-loaded classes that start with few options and build up to more decision points and increasing damage are also really cool, and I think the design space is also more interesting, though I confess this might be biased personal preference. I like that how when you back-load damage, it makes the gameplay curve smoother, more predictable, but also because of that, allows you to condition opponents. Frontloaded gameplay design degenerates into slamming damage into burst windows and hectic cooldown spamming, followed by kiting until cooldowns are back up.
I think that the game feels better to play if players aren't forced to take breaks to sit down and eat/drink. Let me grind. Let me just hammer through this dungeon. This means finding other ways to make encounters difficult for healers other than making them eventually run out of mana.
this is why i was pitching the idea for each class to have its own 2nd resource, i was thinking about it and im not sure if mana/rage combo can work how i was describing it. (likening it to hatred/discipline of demonhunter from diablo3), you only have a hand full of skills to play through. so it might be more of a hinderance then a balancing mechanism..
and the part you said about "Do we want players to be able to repeatedly be able to use their best attack, or should there be some sort of cost for doing so?" was my issue with summoners being able to keep recalling support or dps familiars non stop during a pvp match. from the wiki they can summon 3 at a time. if they got 2 supports and a dps + them acting as their own dps. you will burn out faster because (im not sure 100% about this function) if they respawn a support then its a new mana pool available to continue heals/buffs.
which is why i thought a soulstone might remedy the issue. only down side is they would be forced to grind monsters/humanoids to build up their collect of stones, and the higher level they get the more they can hold.
as for
you can easily catch an enemy team off guard doing drag or baron, wipe them and steal the objective. their are plenty of champs who can engage with a huge AoE CC to melt the enemy when they engage. amumu(jung) for starters can snare and stop any casts giving everyone else on your team an advantage to start with in the 5v5 fight. with gnar(top), zyra(supp), neeko(mid), and jhin(bot) can be grouped in their with him and end the fight before it even starts. but i dont care to talk in hypotheticals cause the chances of getting a random group to synergize and coordinate is fairly slim.. also jung ganks are meant to end enemy champs fast and usually what a good jung will do.. ping ahead to alert your mate in lane and both end them fast.
in wow depending on your class/skill/gear. you can handle a 2v1 but its not as fast as MOBAs. at least way back when i played it. long long time ago.
but theres not much you can do to slow down PvP, as people aim to do most dmg in the smallest amount of time, i'd just prefer not to have it super easy and be done fights in 7 seconds.
Here's an example of caster design I like a lot - the retail WoW fire mage, for anyone unfamiliar.
Here's how the class works in a nutshell for single target dps:
You have your 2.25s cast fireball that you need to stand still for. This has no cooldown and doesn't cost mana.
You have instant cast fire blast which does more damage than fire ball, always crits, doesn't cost mana, and can be casted while other spells are casting without interrupting those spells. It does, however, have a 12 second cooldown (though it has 3 charges, so if you don't cast it for 36 seconds you can cast it 3x in a row). This is off the global cooldown.
You have instant cast phoenix flames, which doesn't cost mana, has a 25 second cooldown, has has 2 charges. This triggers a 1.5 second global cooldown for other spells.
You have scorch, which does crappy damage until the target is below 35% health, and then does great damage and always crits. Castable while moving.
You have 4.5 second pyroblast which is huge damage, (though, less dps than just casting fireball). It also costs no mana. No cooldown.
Now, here's the main mechanic called "Hot Streak":
Any time you crit twice in a row with any of those above spells, it makes your next pyroblast instant cast. Here's the gameplay loop: If you have to move, use phoenix flames. If not, stand still and cast fireball. Repeat until you get a crit. Once you get a crit, cast another fireball. As that cast bar is loading up, use a fireblast. This fireblast always crits, putting you at two crits and activating your "Hot Streak". This means that as soon as your current fireball finishes casting, you can launch an instant-cast pyroblast for big damage.
If both the fireball and pyro you just casted crit, then that puts you right back at "Hot Streak". (since you just crit twice in a row). If just one of them crit, then now you cast another fireball and use another charge of fireblast to guarantee the crit and repeat the process.
Now, to spice things up a lot, your main cooldown, combustion is castable while you're casting other spells and makes it so that everything you cast crits. So, as soon as you get a Hot Streak, you load up a fireball, wait until it's about to finish, pop combustion, and then go wild. Fireball -> fireblast -> pyroblast -> fireblast -> pyroblast -> fireblast -> pyroblast -> phoenix flames -> pyroblast -> phoenix flames -> pyroblast etc, until you run out of charges, and then switch to fireballs into pyro.
Combustion has a 2-minute cooldown, but that cooldown is reduced every time you crit, and every time you land a fireball.
You sometimes want to waste your crits (not use a fireblast) because you know you'll have combustion up soon, and want to have as many resources available for the combustion as possible.
The mage has a mana bar, but doesn't interact with it for damage at all. Instead, that mana bar is strictly used as a limiter for spamming utility stuff (stealing buffs from mobs, putting up barrier spells, etc).
video of this in action