Forums are unfriendly to visually impaired people!

I want to address something that makes really hard to use the forums. I am a visually impaired person, in the terms that i can not distinguish certain colors very well. The light grey on white text field is unreadable for me. And i have to highlight the text to even read what I've typed. Please address this!

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JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Actually yes Noaani, that is one of the responsibilities of a web developer. It is why they get paid more money than just buying some prefab template from -insert youtube sponsored web builder here-. It is absolutely a professional standard of web design.

Catering to all visual impairments is simply not possible, as a number of them have solutions that are mutually exclusive.

This is *WHY* individual solutions exist - and most of those solutions work just fine here.

Actually, it is a Professional standard to do so. It is in fact possible to design such a site. You are being ignorant in multiple directions. The closest to the truth you get is that a good web developer modifies their design to suit the most common tools when designing a complete solution would be odious for them to design around it. That's the social contract and professional expectation in the web developer community. Op has said quite clearly 'this isn't the case' for the forum. Hence their request and has given explicit detail into how the website fails their standard tools.

If there is a 14 year old with a visual impairment that comes along to these forums and has issues, my response to them would be to find a community of people online with a similar impairment and talk to them about solutions - because that 14 year old will need to come up with solutions for them self anyway

...

You can either be pragmatic, or you can demand that others be pragmatic for you. It should come ass no surprise to anyone on these forums which of the two I would tend towards.

I am not surprised this is your response. You are right I do understand you fairly well by now. Thank you for answering so honestly and directly.

This has nothing to do with pragmatism. Op complained, rightly, that the website design had a flaw that posed a hurdle to a type of impairment and that this flaw went code deep enough that the standard solutions do not work well.

Your response was effectively, whether you realize it or not, 'stop whining it isn't their fault, its yours. git gud scrub. IS doesn't have to cater to your weakness. It's just part of the game (of life.)'

I don't know what your definition of toxic is, but to me telling someone to effectively stop complaining about a difficulty with accessibility to the website when their standard tools either fail or are odious to them to implement over a long period of time meets my definition of it. I can easily imagine how you are going to respond to kids who have other problems not related to an impairment based on this response type.

I'm curious as to what your reply to a 14 year old with this issue would be, and how useful that reply would actually be to that 14 year old.

I have three options. Help them find resources if I have heard of a solution/know people to refer them to, support their complaint verbally or with a like and leave it at that, or say nothing because I know I am ignorant on the topic.

Things that aren't options to me: telling them to stop complaining, telling them to git gud, telling them it is their fault, name calling, belittling them and those like them for 'not being strong like them.'

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Op complained, rightly, that the website design had a flaw that posed a hurdle to a type of impairment and that this flaw went code deep enough that the standard solutions do not work well.

As I said, the "solutions" for people with preferences don't work well.

As with most things, people with an actual impairment have more robust solutions to these things. These more robust solutions - the solutions that the OP knows perfectly well are what people with actual impairments turn to - work just fine.

This is why the OP has had to state a number of times that they are not looking for a solution - they are not looking for a solution because many of them already exist.

I have three options. Help them find resources if I have heard of a solution/know people to refer them to, support their complaint verbally or with a like and leave it at that, or say nothing because I know I am ignorant on the topic.

As I said in the post above, the option I would take is to point out that they should learn about resources, much as your first option.

However, that situation is not what is happening in this thread, and so is not what I am doing here.

What is happening here is someone saying they found a thing that isn't an issue, but Intrepid should fix it anyway.

JustVine

daveywavey wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

This is unfriendly to blind people who rely on a text reader.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how many blind people do you think are going to be playing Ashes?

Well my devil friend let me introduce to you to the world of different gradations of blindness!

https://www.perkins.org/four-prevalent-different-types-of-blindness/

https://www.reddit.com/r/blindgamers/

You don't have to visit I will summarize for you, I only link in case your actually interested in learning more.

Blindness happens on a spectrum. There is very many different gradations of blindness that mean they have some visual capacity, but not fully. Legally blind is an associated but more broad category. In other words with good sound design and sensible enough ui schema they can navigate an open world game, but to do things like read text, are much harder. So if AoC caters to good sound design which benefits both abled and impaired gamers, I can absolutely see a situation where this segment of the community could encounter issues with the wiki.

Again this isn't just about a binary can or can't . This is about designs that are /obstacles/. Some obstacles can be over come but jumping hurdles constantly is tiring, frustrating, and needless when good design could easily solve the problem with a little bit of extra effort or just making different design choices at no extra costs from the beginning.

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Op complained, rightly, that the website design had a flaw that posed a hurdle to a type of impairment and that this flaw went code deep enough that the standard solutions do not work well.

As with most things, people with an actual impairment have more robust solutions to these things. These more robust solutions - the solutions that the OP knows perfectly well are what people with actual impairments turn to - work just fine.

This comes off a lot like belittling op and telling them their problem isn't real. Let me know if that wasn't your intention.

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Op complained, rightly, that the website design had a flaw that posed a hurdle to a type of impairment and that this flaw went code deep enough that the standard solutions do not work well.

I have three options. Help them find resources if I have heard of a solution/know people to refer them to, support their complaint verbally or with a like and leave it at that, or say nothing because I know I am ignorant on the topic.

As I said in the post above, the option I would take is to point out that they should learn about resources, much as your first option.

Which falls under things I consider 'telling them to git gud' and subtly implying 'it is their fault', which are things I do not consider to be valid responses to people more vulnerable than myself. It isn't comparable to offering resources. The fact that you don't understand the difference between those two things has always been evident to me, but in this case has the outcome of being ignorantly toxic. I highly suggest you learn the skill of what I considered my personal third valid option if you wish to be a better neighbor to your fellow community members. Respectfully saying nothing is cost free.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

This comes off a lot like belittling op and telling them their problem isn't real. Let me know if that wasn't your intention.

The OP's problem isn't real.

That isn't my opinion, that is their statement. They have said many times they have no issue here.

Kesthely wrote: »

Its not that there aren't any solutions

Kesthely wrote: »

Guys its not about the solutions

These are not the comments of someone with a real issue.

When an issue is real, a solution is the only thing that matters.

JustVine wrote: »

Which falls under things I consider 'telling them to git gud' and subtly implying 'it is their fault', which are things I do not consider to be valid responses to people more vulnerable than myself.

People with impairments do not need (or generally want) strangers on the internet babying them.

To most such people, that is as humiliating and belittling as life can possibly get.

That is why I am pointing out to them that there are such resources that they may not be aware of (this is a hypothetical 14 year old, it is reasonable to assume they are unaware of these tools). However, as I am neither overly familiar with the specifics of their impairment, nor overly keen on belittling them by assuming they are incapable of helping them self, that is where I leave it.

If you want to assume that this person is unable to assist them self, while having no reason to assume this other than that they have an impairment, that shines a negative light on you more than my position shines one on me, imo.

daveywavey

JustVine wrote: »

In other words with good sound design and sensible enough ui schema they can navigate an open world game, but to do things like read text, are much harder. So if AoC caters to good sound design which benefits both abled and impaired gamers, I can absolutely see a situation where this segment of the community could encounter issues with the wiki.

So, they'd use the Speak Text function to hear the words, and cos they're able to navigate the open world game, they'd be able to see the picture anyway and so wouldn't need the picture dictated. There's no problem there.

JustVine

daveywavey wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

In other words with good sound design and sensible enough ui schema they can navigate an open world game, but to do things like read text, are much harder. So if AoC caters to good sound design which benefits both abled and impaired gamers, I can absolutely see a situation where this segment of the community could encounter issues with the wiki.

So, they'd use the Speak Text function to hear the words, and cos they're able to navigate the open world game, they'd be able to see the picture anyway and so wouldn't need the picture dictated. There's no problem there.

You misunderstand the problem. Pictures of text aren't readable by a text to speech program. So you get the problem of text without the solution to it.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

In other words with good sound design and sensible enough ui schema they can navigate an open world game, but to do things like read text, are much harder. So if AoC caters to good sound design which benefits both abled and impaired gamers, I can absolutely see a situation where this segment of the community could encounter issues with the wiki.

So, they'd use the Speak Text function to hear the words, and cos they're able to navigate the open world game, they'd be able to see the picture anyway and so wouldn't need the picture dictated. There's no problem there.

You misunderstand the problem. Pictures of text aren't readable by a text to speech program. So you get the problem of text without the solution to it.

To be clear here though, my understanding is that you are only talking about the citations in the wiki, not the actual articles proper.

Is this correct?

JustVine

People with impairments do not need (or generally want) strangers on the internet babying them.

To most such people, that is as humiliating and belittling as life can possibly get.

That is why I am pointing out to them that there are such resources that they may not be aware of (this is a hypothetical 14 year old, it is reasonable to assume they are unaware of these tools). However, as I am neither overly familiar with the specifics of their impairment, nor overly keen on belittling them by assuming they are incapable of helping them self, that is where I leave it.

If you want to assume that this person is unable to assist them self, while having no reason to assume this other than that they have an impairment, that shines a negative light on you more than my position shines one on me, imo.

Offering actual solutions to a younger person may be babying them a little, but if they are complaining about a problem maybe they need to be, it is being helpful. 'Go find resources yourself' on the other hand is both unhelpful and actually closer to infantilizing them. As if they need some random jack ass telling them on the internet to 'go help themselves' like they are unable to think to look. On my side I am assuming they looked and are having trouble, so what if they didn't. On your side you are both assuming they aren't looking and assuming they are incapable of thinking they should and habe to be told. One of these responses is less toxic and community friendly.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

On my side I am assuming they looked and are having trouble

Why would you assume this?

Is it because they have an impairment and so you think less of them for it? Because that is how it comes across.

You seem to be saying "you have an impairment that you know more about than I ever will, but since I don't have that impairment, I assume you need my assistance to do this basic google search of a word I don't even know but you do".

Honestly, that is how it comes across.

Kesthely

Actually Noaani its you that has been belittling, rude and confrontational. You do not read, you cut and pase words to aggrevate people. Its already posted by me what the problem is, why the problem is probably an oversight, how to easily fix this and that i have a working solution for myself.

Yet you in your first post already started belittleing, that, "there are better and cheaper solutions to my problem of wich you have absolutely no knowledge.

Your a rude, callous and toxic person, and dare i say it quite a megalomaniac. Please remove yourself from this topic, your input is not wanted nor needed anymore

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

On my side I am assuming they looked and are having trouble

Why would you assume this?

Is it because they have an impairment and so you think less of them for it? Because that is how it comes across.

You seem to be saying "you have an impairment that you know more about than I ever will, but since I don't have that impairment, I assume you need my assistance to do this basic google search of a word I don't even know but you do".

Honestly, that is how it comes across.

Oh you are no longer having a genuine discussion now? You are the one assuming I would be giving resources beyond a basic google search. Lot's of projection going on here. Have a good day mate.

ShadonSol

Reminder to keep this discussion constructive.

As part of the website revamp, the forums will also get visually reworked. I don't know if this will include aids for visually impaired people and when exactly those changes will roll out, but it's definitely on the roadmap.

bigepeen

Will the forum visual rework let us keep the low-contrast style? I like greyish backgrounds because it's easier on the eyes. High-contrast and bright background color can give people headaches and strain eyes.

ShadonSol

bigepeen wrote: »

Will the forum visual rework let us keep the low-contrast style? I like greyish backgrounds because it's easier on the eyes. High-contrast and bright background color can give people headaches and strain eyes.

As I said, I don't know what exactly will change with the revamp, just that it will happen at some point in the future.
Best you can do is to wait and see for yourself.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

On my side I am assuming they looked and are having trouble

Why would you assume this?

Is it because they have an impairment and so you think less of them for it? Because that is how it comes across.

You seem to be saying "you have an impairment that you know more about than I ever will, but since I don't have that impairment, I assume you need my assistance to do this basic google search of a word I don't even know but you do"

Honestly, that is how it comes across.

Oh you are no longer having a genuine discussion now? You are the one assuming I would be giving resources beyond a basic google search. Lot's of projection going on here. Have a good day mate.

Not at all.

First, I specified a google search - I never once said anything about more than that. The record of what I said is above, feel free to point out where I said what you are claiming I said.

You presented me with a hypothetical situation. I told you what I would do in that situation, and why I wouldn't do more than that.

You said that this basically amounted to me telling that person to "git gud", and that you would belittle the hypothetical person in question by assuming that they were unable to perform basic tasks on their own - and that somehow this was the right thing to do.

If you don't want someone to tell you what they would do in a hypothetical situation, don't present them with one. If you don't want people to defend what they would do in a hypothetical situation, don't attack what they say it is that they would do.

And also, hypothetical situation or not, don't treat people with impairments as if we are unable to do things our selves.

What you think of as you being polite comes across as you being patronizing.

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

And also, hypothetical situation or not, don't treat people with impairments as if we are unable to do things our selves.

What you think of as you being polite comes across as you being patronizing.

You missed some context to the hypothetical. I'm not going to bother to address the rest of your rant as you are clearly upset. So I will clarify the part that might get you to cool down, maybe.

The context that you missed that I thought was clear was this hypothetical kid is making a thread complaining about an accessibility issue/flaw in the forum. Exactly like the op. Granted I never said this explicitly since I thought it would be clear that I was carrying over context from the previous conversation to said hypothetical.

When someone makes a post for a complaint on a public forum, impairment or not, they are either asking for visibility, commiseration, or working out/seeking solutions. They are not asking for a debate on the 'trueness of the problem' nor 'criticism on their problem solving process.' That may be what they get, but it is not why /they/ are there. When they are seeking that it's usually said explicitly.

So, if you think it's patronizing to offer solutions to someone literally complaining about an issue they have said they tried solving and had difficulty solving it, when the hell is it not. When someone is complaining about a problem and their standard solutions nor working why are YOU assuming they haven't 'done a basic google search.'

Anyway that is all I have to offer you. I am sorry, genuinely no sarc , that I was not clear enough for you. That is definitely on me. Your reaction on the other hand is jumping to the worst possible conclusion about my own character and intentions when I have made a larger effort than usual to have a level headed conversation with you despite you saying some fairly obnoxious and rude things to people in general. So consider me no longer interested in continuing further.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

The context that you missed that I thought was clear was this hypothetical kid is making a thread complaining about an accessibility issue/flaw in the forum.

I made that assumption.

Here's the thing though. If they are having an issue with this website, they will have some sort of issue with around 50% of all websites. The "issue" the OP is talking about is not specific to this website, and a proper fix for the issue on one site works in all sites.

The issue he talks about that he says makes it more difficult are only for work arounds to the issue, not to actual fixes. This is something I assume you don't understand, and other than saying someone with a real issue would use a fix, where someone that has a preference would use a work around, I don't see the point in going in to more detail than that here (if you have no issues in this regard, you have no reason to understand, so this is not me having a go at you).

This is why the best thing this 14 year old can do is to find a community of people with the same issue they have, people that have already found a solution to the problem that works on every website. A robust solution, not something fragile like the OP says he himself does not use

As such, the best suggestion for this person is for them to find a solution that works for them - and the best way for them to do so is to find people with similar issues and ask what they do.

This is why it is what I would suggest to this hypothetical person. I would not offer further assistance than that because it would come across as belittling, as I said earlier. But further to that point, you can't even attempt to help this person without asking them to go in to somewhat personal medical details that they may not want to go in to on the internet, and that you absolutely should not be trying to get out of a 14 year old.

Where you are right is in that it is not an easy solution to solve on one's own. That is why I am not suggesting this. I am suggesting they try and find others that have the same issue as they do.

It is quite likely that this person may have attempted to find a solution on their own, and failed miserably. I don't for a second doubt this is possible (it is probable, imo).

What is very unlikely though, is that a person that is able to find this games website was unable to find an online community of people that share the same visual impairment that they have, if they looked for it.

As such, the kostnplauaable scenario for the 14 year old that you gave was that they attempted to find a fix on their own, failed, and never actually considered looking for that online community in the first place.

So again, the best thing to do for them is to suggest they look for it - as I have been saying.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

Here's the thing though. If they are having an issue with this website, they will have some sort of issue with around 50% of all websites. The "issue" the OP is talking about is not specific to this website, and a proper fix for the issue on one site works in all sites.

No its not, this issue has actually NEVER cropped up before. Why, because 95% of the websites keep the textfield the standard black and white,, or other high contrast to make it easier to read. All others have not been hard coded. This is the first time i encounter a hard coded font color that my browser can't override, combined with for me an unreadable font. (but theres the good old manual highlighting that still works)

Noaani wrote: »

The issue he talks about that he says makes it more difficult are only for work arounds to the issue, not to actual fixes. This is something I assume you don't understand, and other than saying someone with a real issue would use a fix, where someone that has a preference would use a work around, I don't see the point in going in to more detail than that here (if you have no issues in this regard, you have no reason to understand, so this is not me having a go at you).

Again you assume things without asking, or knowing the specifics about. Justvine's posts indicate that he has a better grasp of what my issue is.

Noaani wrote: »

This is why the best thing this 14 year old can do is to find a community of people with the same issue they have, people that have already found a solution to the problem that works on every website. A robust solution, not something fragile like the OP says he himself does not use

A 14 year old does not want to be pampered. He does not want the help of others. You try to do it yourself, and if it fails you get angry, at others, at yourself, but most of all at your condition. You don't think rational then. You are angry all the time. And rightfully so. At least i know i was. And you know what makes the 14 year old, (and the adult sitting here) the most angry? People like you that think they know better. Think they experiance the same, and assume that we haven't tried thousands of tools, gadgets or other ways to make things easier and accessible.

Noaani wrote: »

As such, the best suggestion for this person is for them to find a solution that works for them - and the best way for them to do so is to find people with similar issues and ask what they do.

No the best response is actually to give awnsers to what hes asking for, or if he's complaining about something, acknowledge that you heared him and inform him if / when a fix is comming. Sometimes a fix is not comming, sometimes you have to deal with it. But its ALWAYS better that they tell you that then saying: There are solutions to your problem you should look better.

Noaani wrote: »

This is why it is what I would suggest to this hypothetical person. I would not offer further assistance than that because it would come across as belittling, as I said earlier. But further to that point, you can't even attempt to help this person without asking them to go in to somewhat personal medical details that they may not want to go in to on the internet, and that you absolutely should not be trying to get out of a 14 year old.

You haven't offered assistance, you're replies result only in angerment people with serious impairments don't need that kind of "help" they need exactly what they ask for, nothing more nothing less. Its infuriating that people ALWAYS assume that your stupid / can't do stuff because you have an impairment.

Noaani wrote: »

Where you are right is in that it is not an easy solution to solve on one's own. That is why I am not suggesting this. I am suggesting they try and find others that have the same issue as they do.

Again wrong. Most issues have a simple solution. In this case 2
1) don't hard code the colors
2) choose a different color
People with impairments have lots of tools and trusted people that they can turn to for help. We don't need some random stranger to tell "your tools are wrong, there are better or cheaper versions." Or "your group of people around you that support you aren't good enough, you should look for other / more of them."

My issue and question has been solved by Shadonsol, a revamp of the website is comming, and the forums will be amoung them. When is unknown. I'm certain that due to being aware of the issue, one of the 2 options a) higher contrast color or b) not hard locked color will most likely be present. And if not, myself or someone else will undoubtedly call them out on it.

Noaani wrote: »

It is quite likely that this person may have attempted to find a solution on their own, and failed miserably. I don't for a second doubt this is possible (it is probable, imo).

Online interactions you don't often reveal problems like this. Just like you have your favorite browser and settings, plugins etc, So do we. In 99.9% of the cases there is no problem, cause our settings have solved them before were even been made aware of them. the other 0.09% of the time we need to launch an additional tool and then the 0.01% if that fails we need to resort to reveal we have a problem. Do you think i like having to reveal that i have a weakness, that ignorent people can easily hook in on to make you, or your day feel worse? ofcourse not. You seem to think its the first resort we use, while its the utter last resort.

Noaani wrote: »

What is very unlikely though, is that a person that is able to find this games website was unable to find an online community of people that share the same visual impairment that they have, if they looked for it.

As such, the kostnplauaable scenario for the 14 year old that you gave was that they attempted to find a fix on their own, failed, and never actually considered looking for that online community in the first place.

So again, the best thing to do for them is to suggest they look for it - as I have been saying.

Your so full of yourself to think that you can give advice thats better then the dozens of doctors / professional caretakers that come accross these kinds of questions and issues on a daily basis. You think you know better then me what my problem is. You think you know better then me or those who help me what to use to solve the problem, and all that without even understanding the problem or what my impairment actually is, nor the tools that i have to my disposl.

In your case the best way to describe you is this statement:
A stupid person doesn't know how stupid he is.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Here's the thing though. If they are having an issue with this website, they will have some sort of issue with around 50% of all websites. The "issue" the OP is talking about is not specific to this website, and a proper fix for the issue on one site works in all sites.

No its not, this issue has actually NEVER cropped up before. Why, because 95% of the websites keep the textfield the standard black and white

Please note, I didn't say that if they are having this issue here, they will have the same issue with 50% of all websites - I said they will have SOME SORT of issue.

Kesthely wrote: »

A 14 year old does not want to be pampered. He does not want the help of others. You try to do it yourself, and if it fails you get angry, at others, at yourself, but most of all at your condition. You don't think rational then. You are angry all the time. And rightfully so. At least i know i was. And you know what makes the 14 year old, (and the adult sitting here) the most angry? People like you that think they know better. Think they experiance the same, and assume that we haven't tried thousands of tools, gadgets or other ways to make things easier and accessible.

I am not at all suggesting this hypothetical person - whom I assume has tried to find a solution all by them self, and failed, then got frustrated at them self and their impairment - should go and look for a tool to do what they want to do. I have been VERY clear about this. In fact, this is the suggestion the other poster (the one you think seems to understand you better) is trying to do.

I am fully aware that our hypothetical 14 year old has probably tried to come up with a solution and failed - and I have said that only a few posts above.

My suggest is, and always was, to suggest to that 14 year old that they find a community of people in a similar situation to them self, and talk to people there about solutions.

I'm not offering a tool, nor am I offering to help out with an issue that I know nothing about (because I know I know nothing about it, even if I know a lot about a similar issue).

Kesthely wrote: »

Online interactions you don't often reveal problems like this. Just like you have your favorite browser and settings, plugins etc, So do we. In 99.9% of the cases there is no problem, cause our settings have solved them before were even been made aware of them. the other 0.09% of the time we need to launch an additional tool and then the 0.01% if that fails we need to resort to reveal we have a problem. Do you think i like having to reveal that i have a weakness, that ignorent people can easily hook in on to make you, or your day feel worse? ofcourse not. You seem to think its the first resort we use, while its the utter last resort.

Have you forgotten that I am talking about our hypothetical 14 year old here? The one that doesn't have these tools yet, that needs help in getting them more than they need help with any one website?

If that 14 year old that I am talking about had that community support, they would have that solution - just as you have your solution.

This is why I am not trying to offer direct help to them, but rather suggesting they find a community of people that can offer far more help than I could ever provide for them.

Kesthely wrote: »

Your so full of yourself to think that you can give advice thats better then the dozens of doctors / professional caretakers that come accross these kinds of questions and issues on a daily basis.

Again, I am not trying to give any advice.

I am trying to get this 14 year old to find a community of people with a similar condition (which likely also has specialists of the condition giving advice, as well as people that have been living with it for their whole life).

I completely agree that you would need to be full of yourself to think you could help someone with a condition you have no real idea about (no offence to those that think they could - you mean well but are just outright wrong). This is why my suggestion was not to offer help, but to suggest they find a community of people with the same issue.

The above is four either misconceptions on your part, or three cases of an attempt to purposely misrepresent what was said in order to support your case. I'm not sure which of these it is, though you will no doubt read this and know straight away whether you have purposely misrepresented what I said, or you will know that you did not purposely misrepresent what I said and as such are just gravely mistaken in your understanding of the recent discussion.

So, you think I am full of myself, callous, what ever. That's fine, I don't much care what you think.

However, based on this post above, I want to ask you directly what is wrong with what I would do in this situation.

The situation is a 4 year old coming to a website (any website) and complaining that it isn't friendly towards their specific impairment, an impairment that I know for a fact that there are tools out there to help with. My answer to this person isn't to offer hem help on something I know little about, or to brush them and their impairment off, it is to suggest they find a community of people with the same impairment, so that they can get some real, useful advice.

You've attacked me somewhat directly in your above post, you've attacked my position. As such, you now need to back up your attack on me by saying what is wrong with suggesting that 14 year old look for that community - the one that has people that have lived with this condition their whole life, and likely has specialists spending time there a well.

Go on, tell me what is wrong with that. You've already attacked my position and called me full of myself for having this position...

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