I can't recall if intrepid is planning on level cap increase with expansions. Not sure i would with 64 player archetypes+augments. But i don;t think linear progression is a design element Ashes is leaning on. So catching up should not be a major concern. But a cosmetic only store with no convenience items gives me some hope that item and inventory bloat will not eventuate.
Steven has mentioned increasing the level cap a couple of times in a future expansion, so it's definitely on the table. But they do have a lot of horizonal/parallel progression in the game planned already.
While I personally don't like 'catch-up' mechanics at all, I won't complain about them if the developers are able to implement them in such a way that 1. we have a steady stream of new players joining the game a couple of years down the road and 2. the catch-up isn't too fast. If it takes me, playing from day 1, two years to do something, I'll be grouchy if a new player does it in two months.
The two year grind for me was great fun, don't deprive the new player of that experience. But yeah, new players are good to have around, too!
Most Sand box game have horizontal progression so no catch up is required. Themeparks are typically linear progression making catchups more prevalent. But It primarily the power creep that has the most detrimental impact to the new player experience later in the games life cycle.
This is kind of a red herring here.
First of all, we are talking about Ashes, not "most sandbox MMO'S".
Second, Ashes will have both horizontal and vertical progression. This is a given.
Third, look at a game like EVE. It is as horizontal progression based as any game out there. Yet, it still takes months for a new player to become relevant in that game - and EVE has introduced a number of catch up mechanics.
I can't recall if intrepid is planning on level cap increase with expansions.
Larger expansions will add new content and increase various aspects of the game.
Increased level cap.
New gear sets.
New zones.
New bosses.
New skill levels.
Increased power levels.
Gear upgrades.
This is why catch up mechanics in Ashes are just going to be a fact, eventually.
While I personally don't like 'catch-up' mechanics at all, I won't complain about them if the developers are able to implement them in such a way that 1. we have a steady stream of new players joining the game a couple of years down the road and 2. the catch-up isn't too fast. If it takes me, playing from day 1, two years to do something, I'll be grouchy if a new player does it in two months.
The two year grind for me was great fun, don't deprive the new player of that experience. But yeah, new players are good to have around, too!
I agree with this if that thing you had to grind for isn't required in order for that new player to play the game at the level that most players are playing it when they start.
That is the thing about catch up mechanics, they are generally only really applied to things that are needed to get players to that point - they are not applied to everything.
At some point people will have to accept the fact that Stevens best mmo times, upon which he builds AoC is korean style risk v reward and time invested gratification against casual gameplay, take their heads out of the sand and try a new experience, instead of pushing for more eso, ff14 systems and features.
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Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It will be interesting to witness how Intrepid will handle the power creep without violating their "Cosmetic only" Shop mantra. If the Themebox/sandpark swings more thempark and the expansion shuffle content pump and dump occurs then catch up mechanics are the least of Ashes problems by that stage.
Catch up mechanics, being ingame systems, isnt p2convenience (p2w).
They just dump down content with every expansion, which makes the game less amazing for new players, more of an endgame push, which will lead to new players still be bad comparing to seasoned players, but the ingame gear and items will lose value.
Crafting is ez to get good at as opposed to combat. Crafters will lose importance due to more players quickly reaching higher lvs.
Again.. for new players we need new servers every couple years or so. That's the only way to maintain the integrity of mmos.
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Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree a fresh server option per expansion will address many if not all the issues.
I agree a fresh server option per expansion will address many if not all the issues.
Perhaps a few welcoming servers every couple years in the regions with higher playerbase with the option to migrate to the old servers once you hit a certain lv, for the people that want better ping.
It's not realistic to expect new servers frequently and for every location on the planet.
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Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
population density will dictate the viability of new servers. But offering a new per region sever with an expansion shifts the onus catch up issue raised on the player not the developers.
The issue with server mergers is the independent node system means no 2 servers are the same.
However 2 dead low pop servers would likely benefit from a merge when the node systems are not being sufficed.
Catch up mechanics, being ingame systems, isnt p2convenience (p2w).
They just dump down content with every expansion
This is very much a perspective thing.
If your perspective is that it took you 60 hours to get to level 50, 12 more to get to 60 when the cap was increased, 12 more to get to 70, then 12 more to get to 80, saying that you want it to take 96 hours for people to get to level 80 is absolutely valid.
On the other hand, saying that at launch it took you 60 hours to get to the level cap, and so new players to the game at any point in the games lifetime should need to spend 60 hours to get to the level cap regardless of what that cap happens to be when they start - that is also a perfectly valid perspective.
This is what catch up mechanics are. If done properly, developers should define several points on the scale of progression that players should be able to get to after defined amounts of time (not information we should have access to). That progression scale is shifted and manipulated in order to give existing players something to do, but new players should be able to get from the starting point to that same defined point on that scale in that same defined amount of time.
As such, if Intrepid say that it should take an average of 60 hours to get to the level cap, even if that level cap is bought up to 100 after a few years, it should still take 60 hours to get there.
Your point about Korean MMO's is an interesting one. While I can't speak for L2, every other Korean MMO I know of uses catch up mechanics.
As to your suggestion of new players going to new servers, all that means is old servers will die. An MMO needs to replenish players on each server at close to the speed it loses them - you should know this. You can't sustain an MMO without bringing in new people to the existing servers.
@GreatThodric
I think your point about the psychology of buying the box being associated with buying access to the full game content is spot on. Backlash from entitled individuals has pressured some devs into making their MMOs fully accessible as a single player experience. When you stop and think about that last sentence it sounds crazy. Those devs essentially minimize the need to interact with anyone else in their MMO. All this comes from the "I bought the box, I bought the content" mentally.
Comments
Steven has mentioned increasing the level cap a couple of times in a future expansion, so it's definitely on the table. But they do have a lot of horizonal/parallel progression in the game planned already.
The two year grind for me was great fun, don't deprive the new player of that experience. But yeah, new players are good to have around, too!
First of all, we are talking about Ashes, not "most sandbox MMO'S".
Second, Ashes will have both horizontal and vertical progression. This is a given.
Third, look at a game like EVE. It is as horizontal progression based as any game out there. Yet, it still takes months for a new player to become relevant in that game - and EVE has introduced a number of catch up mechanics.
This is why catch up mechanics in Ashes are just going to be a fact, eventually.
I agree with this if that thing you had to grind for isn't required in order for that new player to play the game at the level that most players are playing it when they start.
That is the thing about catch up mechanics, they are generally only really applied to things that are needed to get players to that point - they are not applied to everything.
They just dump down content with every expansion, which makes the game less amazing for new players, more of an endgame push, which will lead to new players still be bad comparing to seasoned players, but the ingame gear and items will lose value.
Crafting is ez to get good at as opposed to combat. Crafters will lose importance due to more players quickly reaching higher lvs.
Again.. for new players we need new servers every couple years or so. That's the only way to maintain the integrity of mmos.
Perhaps a few welcoming servers every couple years in the regions with higher playerbase with the option to migrate to the old servers once you hit a certain lv, for the people that want better ping.
It's not realistic to expect new servers frequently and for every location on the planet.
The issue with server mergers is the independent node system means no 2 servers are the same.
However 2 dead low pop servers would likely benefit from a merge when the node systems are not being sufficed.
That would kill the game for me completely.
Me too,
If I wanted something short term, I have plenty of good options. Ranging from games like Ark and Atlas down to just mobas...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
If your perspective is that it took you 60 hours to get to level 50, 12 more to get to 60 when the cap was increased, 12 more to get to 70, then 12 more to get to 80, saying that you want it to take 96 hours for people to get to level 80 is absolutely valid.
On the other hand, saying that at launch it took you 60 hours to get to the level cap, and so new players to the game at any point in the games lifetime should need to spend 60 hours to get to the level cap regardless of what that cap happens to be when they start - that is also a perfectly valid perspective.
This is what catch up mechanics are. If done properly, developers should define several points on the scale of progression that players should be able to get to after defined amounts of time (not information we should have access to). That progression scale is shifted and manipulated in order to give existing players something to do, but new players should be able to get from the starting point to that same defined point on that scale in that same defined amount of time.
As such, if Intrepid say that it should take an average of 60 hours to get to the level cap, even if that level cap is bought up to 100 after a few years, it should still take 60 hours to get there.
Your point about Korean MMO's is an interesting one. While I can't speak for L2, every other Korean MMO I know of uses catch up mechanics.
As to your suggestion of new players going to new servers, all that means is old servers will die. An MMO needs to replenish players on each server at close to the speed it loses them - you should know this. You can't sustain an MMO without bringing in new people to the existing servers.
I think your point about the psychology of buying the box being associated with buying access to the full game content is spot on. Backlash from entitled individuals has pressured some devs into making their MMOs fully accessible as a single player experience. When you stop and think about that last sentence it sounds crazy. Those devs essentially minimize the need to interact with anyone else in their MMO. All this comes from the "I bought the box, I bought the content" mentally.