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Should There Be a Wait Time on Re-Selling Market Items, to Fight Inflation?

Yours truly realized that I was part of the problem, in SWTOR - which in this past year has seen *HORRIBLE* inflation: In "flipping" items on the market, we artificially drive up the prices of items on the player-markets.

It feels like this won't be as much of an issue in AoC, since the markets will be localized - but I'm predicting the norm will be for players to make trips to any Economic Node-cities anyways, when searching the markets for what they want.

If we put a wait on re-selling items bought from the markets, it won't *entirely* stop market-flippers - but it would discourage it. Got the idea from a video I watched about cities right now that are doing this on real estate, since it costs money to keep an empty property; it discourages house-flippers from driving up real estate prices in those cities to un-livable levels.
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I don't think there is a need for it in Ashes.

    The decentralized market will make it much harder for the price of anything to be inflated. Rather than buying items and just flipping them, the more common practice is likely to be buying items and reselling them in a different location.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    The issue you bring up is caused by production being too great for the demand.
    And that is because most games allow 1 character to become master crafter in many professions.
    These characters will then try to get rid or their products for ANY profit, no matter how low.
    And then the big pockets win.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Tyranthraxus
    How do you imagine people pay for holding on to goods? It could work like the example, but there needs to be a price to pay like the people holding empty properties. (trade tax?)

    I'm not a fan of the practice, but I also wonder if Steven WANTS price flipping in the game to have it influence the in-game stock market?

    I think Noaani's idea only works with NPC vendored items coz that was specifically what beaushinkle and Azherae were disappointed about. If I find a rare sword, I'm going straight to the nearest Economic Metropolis where I'll be doing the rest of my shopping.
    Still, it remains to be seen.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • One thing to keep in mind is that many players actually enjoy playing the economic game in MMOs. Rather than grinding mats, they play the AH to make the cash they need to gear up. Flipping mats is an economic and game play driver since as prices for things like harvesting goods go up, more people go out to grind them, and then conflict over harvesting spots ensues.

    My main concern will be to have a stable bottom for our in game economy and how Ashes will handle server population flux post launch. Servers with healthy populations tend to have healthy economies which help deal with issues like price inflation. You can corner the market on something like "iron" only to see people rush out to harvest in mass to make a quick buck. As long as you have a large enough population, you will see a healthy flux in market prices. It is when you have crashing server populations or population gaps "very few new / leveling players" that you really see these issues grow to become serious problems.

  • edited November 23
    @Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.

    @Tyranthraxus It's not a bad idea having an item with a locked out for resale timer to prevent/deter bots and players doing this to the market. To be honest, I wouldn't necessarily be against fixed prices for items with a range allowance for inflation over time. I mentioned something similar in the how to defeat gold sellers thread as an idea based on region/biome vs resource as an example but there is lots that could be done with a system mechanic like this to ensure longevity in the game. Even thought with fixed prices, guild could have a private shop with a discounted fixed price range for only guild members that funds the guild at the guild hall/guild freehold.
  • Given the limits on housing you can have per character & per account, I hope that house flipping won't be practical in Ashes, and for other items a resell-timer seems odd (like, how to you explain it? The market staff casting a time-limited "unsellable" curse on every item sold?) & unnecessary to me.

    From my trading experience in Eve Online:

    - Flipping's only practical for rarer items with a really low supply. For other more common crafted / gathered items it's usually impractical (coz the stock gets replenished quickly), and the traders doing the flipping often gets trapped in a time consuming "0.01 war" (having to constantly adjust the price on their sell orders to stay competitive), which is ... not that fun. For me doing inter-hub trading was much more practical & profitable.

    - I'm actually fine with rare items being expensive when flipped. If other common items temporarily became expensive due to flipping? Well just crank up the supply. (happy crafter here)

    - While it's natural for ppl wanting to go to the major economic nodes in search for the cheapest deal, not all players can afford the travel time & risk to always do so. There'll always be ppl willing to pay more for the same items at remote, local markets, and there will always be ppl willing to sell their loot for less at local markets so they can quickly move onto the next hunt. And there will always be demand for traders & haulers to fill that gap.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.
    I find that most PvE players are greedy people that only care about getting the kill for themselves, don't care what anyone else wants, and ruin the game for others.

    I find that most PvP players only care about killing other players, don't care a out a fair fight and ruin the game for others.

    So, people that play the market fit right in with PvP'ers and PvE'ers as people that are in the game for themselves.

    You can't claim one is bad without claiming all are bad.

    As to botting, how you can claim that someone standing at the broker for hours looking through as many items and item types as they like, trying to find things they can buy low and sell high is a bot is beyond me.

    What is it they are doing that makes you think they are botting? What would they do differently if they were not botting?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.
    I find that most PvE players are greedy people that only care about getting the kill for themselves, don't care what anyone else wants, and ruin the game for others.

    I find that most PvP players only care about killing other players, don't care a out a fair fight and ruin the game for others.

    So, people that play the market fit right in with PvP'ers and PvE'ers as people that are in the game for themselves.

    You can't claim one is bad without claiming all are bad.

    As to botting, how you can claim that someone standing at the broker for hours looking through as many items and item types as they like, trying to find things they can buy low and sell high is a bot is beyond me.

    What is it they are doing that makes you think they are botting? What would they do differently if they were not botting?

    you done?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    No!

    "What is the point in going into business f you can't corner the market?"-Quark, DS9

    Real talk: Flipping is not as easy as you think @Tyranthraxus. There is a real art to it. You can just as easily mess it up and lose a lot of money. Especially when it's hard to control the supply (like in a game where there are a high number of gatherers.). There is real risk vs reward to trying to corner a market.

    The decentralized economy is also going to make it harder. Not impossible with dedication and coordination, but harder for sure. I think you "may" see it on some servers if the population is low enough. I don't think it will be an issue unless populations are really bad.
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  • @Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol

    It really depends on how well the GMs and players handle bots. IMO, it should be assumed that bots will not be a major issue.

    Bots are not normally a major issue in games without safe zones.

    Ideally, there will not be any bots due to a lack of safe zones and good reporting and detection.
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  • edited November 23
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol

    It really depends on how well the GMs and players handle bots. IMO, it should be assumed that bots will not be a major issue.

    Bots are not normally a major issue in games without safe zones.

    Ideally, there will not be any bots due to a lack of safe zones and good reporting and detection.

    I will say that you are quite optimistic. Don't know where you get this safe zone concept from. Some people just throw the bot on while they do other stuff on the computer where they can keep tabs on it. Helps them deal with GM's and what not poking around. They can still play while using the bot from what I have seen and experienced over the years (no I am not a botter). You could be surprised how much bots have ruined many genre's in gaming. Depends on the botters goals I suppose but it's not hard for them to work in groups to control markets on specific items especially when they can buy out each other to keep the items within the market. It sucks but it's the hard truth about gaming and bots.

    Hopefully Intrepid does have something good planned for this game as it could be fucked by bots and gold sellers like the rest of the genre.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Enigmatic Sage

    I get the safe zone concept from the fact that there will be few safe zones in the game.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Safe_zones

    I have played in games where people kill bots on sight, then report them. Making it stupid to try and do anything productive with a bot.

    These guys can just get rekt sitting at the market. They will get rekt trying to transfer things from market to market. They will get rekt trying to harvest mobs and resources.

    People don't like bots and are often happy to go red for a little while to ruin a botters day.

    So, players doing their part in tandem with GMs doing their part makes me optimistic that bots will be a problem. Never once had a problem with bots when you can kill them. It's only been an issue for me on servers or in places with opt in PvP.
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  • @Vhaeyne I was relating your safe zone comment about bots, not some feature about the game.

    They still have to figure out they're bots and if the trading markets are in the node then it looks like the guards will kill the players attacking the alleged bots.

    I dont like bots either I'm just not willing to be ignorant about the problems in the gaming industry relating to them and game design.

    Bot's just dont farm mobs, they have multiple purposes but I'm sure you're aware of that already.

    Sure, players can do their part, IF they can. It's easy to report but can they prove it? I've had people report me for being a bot in some games when I'm grinding out materials. If people spam bot reports then the team still has to do all the work and effort as someone else mentioned. They still have to prove they're botting via legal methods. Reporting someone who is watching their bot may not solve anything depending on the function and design of the bot.

    Botting is only get to worse as code monkeys will find a way as so many more people know coding in this day and age. It sucks but it's the truth about botting. I've seen bots flood games when new seasons start to get a ranking early on. I know in blizzard most of the grand-master leagues players are determined within the first couple weeks. If you dont make to grand-master within that period, it's basically hopeless to get into it.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Enigmatic Sage

    In addition to players handling bots. The GMs will have tools to see abnormal wealth transfers.

    I don't see this on the Wiki anymore, but I know it was once there. Steven talked about how if a player all of a sudden had a windfall of currency or items in the mail or traded to them. All parties involved would be flagged for manual review without knowing it.

    Steven also said that he is going to not reveal the details of all of the security tools they plan on using for bot detection. There is a tone of annoyance in Steven's voice when he talks about bot detection that makes me confident it's a priority in Ashes.

    I will admit that I could be overly optimistic here, but based on my past experience with games without safe zones and Steven's statements regarding bots. I feel pretty confident that botting will only be a minor issue for Ashes.

    It is a major issue for Blizzard because Blizzard likes the consistent sub money they get from bots. I think there was explicit proof of this when all of the gallywixs stuff went down a while back, but I am not going to dig for it. I don't doubt Blizzard would turn a blind eye to bots for a second.
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  • edited November 23
    @Vhaeyne a lot of companies have ways to "handle" bots, yet, there they are. Like anything else, they'll find ways to be less detectable.

    are we really going to have this back and forth? lol
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    are we really going to have this back and forth? lol

    It's up to you? I was under the impression this has been a civil back and forth.

    My bar for civil might be tainted, though...
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  • @Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

    Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

    Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    @Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

    Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

    Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.

    I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

    Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    @Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

    Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

    Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.

    I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

    Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.

    Correct, botting is common in trade markets and relatively more difficult to detect. I never said it's only botting. The rest is self-explanatory.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Enigmatic Sage

    This conversation could be helpful to some. I know there are plenty of lurkers on this forum.

    This is like one of the few areas I actually am optimistic in, so it feels nice. If I hoped that we would have a game without DPS meters, I would be as skeptical as you are about bots.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

    Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.

    How do I as a player detect bots on the market?

    It will depend on how much information we are given from the AH. If we can see the last 10 transactions, buyer/seller and the times. You can just individually list items and see how fast they sell at various times.

    Such automated market tools were used in WOW to alert players of listings within value ranges, then play a sound to alert them to buy. No doubt, many do the next step and automate to buying which breaks TOS.

    In WOW you could not report someone for buying all day with a supernatural speed because the market add-on was alerting players at supernatural speed which in theory was allowed. In Ashes, no add-ons are allowed at all, so you could build a case pretty quickly if you have the item you listed sell within seconds of listing it.

    The botter can do things like buy with one character and sell with another to obfuscate the market manipulation, but if you are paying attention, you are going to notice who is setting prices. I will often PM players if they are consistently selling in a way this is affecting my bottom line to try and negotiate a deal where we both make more money.

    You can't really do the above in FFXIV due to the retainer system obfuscating the real seller. This leads to constant undercutting spikes that destroy the value of a single item harder than hoarders could ever raise it.

    In general, though, you notice patterns that seem suspect.

    I also believe 100% that people will leave characters at the AH around the clock in each populated market to "scan" the AH with computer vision to populate a real-time database. While that in theory is not detectable, I would notice if the same character was there day in and day out. If I see a pattern that looks suspect, I will explain it to the GM in a ticket.
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  • @Vhaeyne the dumb ones will leave them there around the clock. Smart ones will migrate and do it intermittently with other botters from various real world locations working together or solo. The character isn't just a bot, but players toggle a bot when they desire. Not all bots requires the game to restart.

    I've seen many games with trade markets such as auction houses get ruined by bots let alone them ruin PvE and PvP through the various genre's let alone trades. If done right, they can trick the logs for even combat as well but that requires a whole other discussion with programmable error based on classes and combat mechanics.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    In general, though, you notice patterns that seem suspect.
    This is about what it amounts to in most games.

    I've had players ask me in games if I am a botter when I spend time at the marketplace. People like to see botting when there is none - it is a common thing.

    People then see what they think is botting, and see the games developer or publisher do nothing about it and they get upset. People then blame all of the games problems on these things that they think they have seen but indeed have not (or often have not, at least).

    In my opinion, people thinking they have seen botting or other such activity and spreading that around as fact is at least as big of an issue to MMO's as actual botting and such activities are - and players need to stop it.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Enigmatic Sage

    All going according to design, I have faith that it will be too hard not to get noticed as a bot.

    We have a lot of going for us. Off the top of my head: A hostile world, No phasing, No name changes, No server transfers, A reasonable time investment to level a character, No fast travel.

    These are all things that I consider to be measures that help reduce bot effectiveness.

    @Noaani

    I, personally, build a case. My first course of action if someone else is price fixing will be to try and sell to them directly. If it's a person, I got no problem.

    So, long as they are not buying at a superhuman speed. Which is a major red flag.

    If they are wanted to fix the price at 25 and sit on the AH and buy all of an item below that. That is fair. I have done that myself. It can work. I would just contact the seller and try to sell to them directly to save the listing fee. Try to get them to buy at like 24.5 or something.

    If they don't respond and keep buying at superhuman speeds I have my case. If they are not buying at superhuman speeds, but are botting at least real humans have a chance.

    I don't think I am the only one who pays close attention to the market when they are dealing with a good that makes them money consistently. Close enough to notice things selling instantly.

    There may be the odd time I report a human because they did not respond to my PMs or responded in a way that made me think it was a bot. That is for the GMs to investigate, though.

    We can all hope they are not as bad as Blizzard and, from what I have heard, New World. Where they auto-ban after mass report.
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  • edited November 23
    @Vhaeyne I'm not expecting them to have a perfect system either, just enough deterrence to make it worth gamers time to not be discouraged by wasting time playing a game that could be ruined by botters and gold sellers down the road. I'm still waiting to see proof of other claims Intrepid has made. AoC looks pretty, but from my experiences over the years and the bullshit AAA studios try to pull, the game is usually shit. specific graphics design choices doesn't mean the game is better. It's a bullshit stigma that has been embedded into the next gen gamers. I'd rather a solid game that is fun to its core over AAA graphics (not saying AoC is AAA graphics, just implying it being pretty doesn't have me sold on anything).

    In regards to your auto-ban comment for Noanni, it's a horrible system that players have been abusing to win pvp events or just straight trolling.
  • VoidwalkersVoidwalkers Member
    edited November 23
    Regarding bots, my own experience

    - In Eve Online I used to spend 1-3 hrs per day at market hubs MANUALLY managing trades. I wrote a program to handle the out-of-game parts (pull market data and finding trades). I thought about writing one to handle some of the in-game work too, but I didn't dare to, as I wasn't sure whether Eve can detect 3rd party programs interacting with its UI.
    - In FF14 I used to spend hours per day sitting next to the market npc MANUALLY buying mats, crafting, and listing items. And I wasn't alone.
    - In Ragnarok Online I used bots, but combat bots. A widely available one too, and it's free.

    My thoughts:
    1. Manual market players exist. Players who sit still at an AH for hours aren't necessarily bots. 24 hrs? Then may be.
    2. Bots likely aren't as prevalent as people suspect. Well except the RMT gold sellers may be, as they likely have the resource to write bots, and can afford to lose accounts while testing the bots.

    And reasons for 2:
    a. We are all afraid of the ban hammer too. We don't do it unless we're confident that the devs can't catch us (or just won't ban us for whatever reason).
    b. I don't believe it's that easy to acquire a reliable bot. Either you write your own, or you place enormous trust in a mysterious .exe sold by an anonymous 3rd party (which could well be a malware), or you download a widely available bot that somehow everyone's using and still not yet addressed by the devs.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Vhaeyne I'm not expecting them to have a perfect system either, just enough deterrence to make it worth gamers time to not be discouraged by wasting time playing a game that could be ruined by botters and gold sellers down the road. I'm still waiting to see proof of other claims Intrepid has made. AoC looks pretty, but from my experiences over the years and the bullshit AAA studios try to pull, the game is usually shit. specific graphics design choices doesn't mean the game is better. It's a bullshit stigma that has been embedded into the next gen gamers. I'd rather a solid game that is fun to its core over AAA graphics (not saying AoC is AAA graphics, just implying it being pretty doesn't have me sold on anything).

    Yeah, Maybe I have been here waiting for this game too long, and I am too optimistic. I am certainly just as jaded as you are about any other game or studio on the market. Except maybe "Satisfactory" those Devs are angels in my eyes...
    In regards to your auto-ban comment for Noanni, it's a horrible system that players have been abusing to win pvp events or just straight trolling.

    I am pretty sure both Amazon and Blizzard have lied and stated that they don't use such systems. Pretty confident, Intrepid would say the same thing... Somehow I believe Intrepid. I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me a few years down the road.
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  • edited November 23
    @Vhaeyne Dont get me wrong, I not throwing shade at Intrepid or Steven. I got a problem with how many companies and corporations are handling the future of gaming in the modern day.

    Take Corporate EA constantly raping their franchises for quick money at the cost of what those franchises did to bring them where they are today. Battle Field went downhill, more specifically noticeable around BF4. They keep trying to be things they're not to bait sales for features when they should have stuck to what their fanbase wanted, more destruction, advanced destruction and intricate level design to encourage that destruction. It's not about the graphics, it's about poor choices in design. BF4 = bad, BF one = awful, BF 2042 = a shit show. If they want to make battle royale rip off of Activision's COD ripping off BF, then just make one, don't drag one of the last good things about EA through the dirt feeding gamers shit sandwiches called new features. Advance what the franchise is known for while adding in small little things.

    Never really was into COD, last one I was remotely interested in was Modern Warfare 2.

    Anyways, It's things like these that I dont like about corporate influence ruining their franchises to make more money for the CEO's and Investors. What happened to making games for gamers by gamers? when did it turn into, here's a shit sandwich, you want it with or without crust? thanks for the money.

    Dont even get me started on loot boxes and Bethesda... lol
  • I'd suggest we need a bit of inflation. I usually find that prices drop and drop and drop cos every new seller is trying to undercut the current ones. If there's an Iron Finger-Guard for sale for 15gp, then the next seller along will sell it for 14gp, and the next for 13gp....
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Enigmatic Sage

    I get it.

    It's why I did not even give New World a chance. They were weaseling and backpedaling about microtransactions before launch. "We might have some quality of life services..." or whatever they said. I said, "No" and skipped New World. I would do the same for Ashes if I noticed any suspect behavior.

    We also got EA saying "NFTs are the future of gaming", whilst Valve is banning them... Valve is not the golden child of gaming in my eyes, but they have more good will with me than EA. I guess the moral is that Valve has some sort of philosophy other than pure greed guiding their business practices.

    Some of these companies charge you extra for the service of taking the crust off the shit sandwich.
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