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Perhaps more races?

Ok so before anything else I should clarify that i mean like monster races that a player could become like say for example vampires and werewolves. There are a lot more types of races that the current roster of races could feasibly become like that with say for example ghosts, skeletons, litches, and for and example i will elaborate on a bit more, Automatons.

Alrighty than so how I would say you could do a automaton race would be for example have say a dungeon. perhaps it only crops up when certain nodes reach specific levels as it would be a castle dungeon. surrounding the place would be a lot of the normal monsters you likely have encountered in the area but they for some reason have robot limbs and pieces all over them! perhaps you begin to investigate the area looking around until you find a castle thats damn near overrun with these things. upon further inspection you see that while you arent there its almost as if these monsters are acting as servants in this castle doing jobs like cleaning up or moving supplies or etc. and perhaps most intriguingly you see them moving cages full of people inside the caslte.

Perhaps as you begin to look around and maybe while fighting through some of the altered monsters you come across a man who at first glance seems normal until you see his hands and feet and realize he's as much altered as all the monster here and for some reason he was hiding from them all even though it seams that he has at least some relation to whats going on here. When you ask him what is happening he begins by saying "This castle is the property of the inventor... Vegapunk! (you could make a better name im sure but the point is gotten across with that i hope) the scientist is a brilliant man who has managed to make prosthetics that dont just replace limbs but that can replace every organ in any race! However he has recetly turned to using this to only further his power by altering anything he gets his hands on into soldiers to work out his will."
"How does he make MONSTERS work for him?"
".... *sighs sadly* he does that by engraving a rune onto a piece built into their artificial hearts that both allows them to understand what he says and begins to induce damage to their heart if they don't obey his orders..."
"If thats the case than what about you? are you also under his control?"
"No... he... didnt do that to me.... i think he figured i wouldnt be able to do anything even with augmentation and was just using me as a test to see how the full procedure would work on a human, or something like that..."

After you interaction, this man perhaps begs you to also not harm the monsters and creatures that only have partial augmentation and to not let you be seen at all lest them having to follow the order to kill all intruders and fight you with the intent to kill you. Upon hearing that you and your companions can decide if you wish to try stealth around the partially altered or if you are going to ignore that and just blow them all as he gives you nothing more than asking you not to, to not do that. You and your group than begin a quest to delve into the dark heart of this massive castle, all the while seeing one monstrous thing after another and after a large dungeon you all come across a large door and before entering the man who gave you the quest shows up again and tells you to be careful as the scientists has began to venture into making automatons purely for combat and that this is the place where he has been keeping the majority of them. After hearing this perhaps you can ask "Why do you seemingly know everything about this? Who are you really an what is your relation to this place and the procedure that makes those automatons?!'
"..... You want to know who I am? *sighs* I guess given that you abided by my request that shows that you perhaps deserve to know.... Ok. I lied to you that I was a captive from a village in the area... In reality I was Vegapunk's assistant. I was also the first person he made into a full automaton when he first came here. originally this castle belonged to a wealthy noble although after a monster attack the place was destroyed and anyone that didnt escape was dead or dying... I myself was on the verge of death until HE showed up. Vegapunk saved my life! He without question or asking for reward helped me! Also before you ask, no. I dont regret having to become a automaton at all as I either had the choices of death or accepting my new body. I chose the latter..."
"Ok well that explains how you became like this but that doesnt tell me/ us anything about how this Vegapunk went from a doctor helping people to a maniac turning anyone and anything into a automaton?"
"He wasnt always like that! At first he and I took in anyone, Humanoid or monster... If they were hurt or dying we helped them. If they lost a arm we would give them a new one, if they lost a leg than we gave them a leg, and if the lost even a organ we could even give them a new organ! it was amazing and beautiful! However after some time the Vegapunk began to see the wounds inflicted by monsters and the wounds inflicted on monsters and decided began to become frustrated that the best he could do was replace broken parts... He couldnt stop the fighting nor could he stop the harm from happening... Ultimately he decided that if he couldnt do anything but replace parts than he would just replace all the parts..."
"You mean he decided to do the full procedure on anyone and anything right?"
"Yes.... and when he realized that people were rejecting him 'saving' them he become infuriated and thats when he began using the runes... In his eyes he's saving the world from having to suffer death and any who would want to stop him are simply sick not just in the physical but in the mental as well and he feels that there is no way he could be in the wrong....."

Finally after finishing the fight, if you got the assistant to tell you who they really were than you can ask them to do the full procedure to you too, tell them to stop the automaton procedure altogether, or perhaps let them continoue to do it to help anyone and anything who needs it but refuse to have it done to yourself. Also for every monster with the incomplete procedure you let live changes how many named npcs will exist and again if you kill too many than he wont do the procedure for you limiting you to stoping them from doing it although if you went down that route than you can only stop him by killing them as he wont listen to you or you can leave them to continue helping others with the partial procedure.

All in all I could see it as something that is an interesting flavor to add that I dont really think many other mmos would even think about doing but I feel could make characters choice have EVEN MORE impact on how they play and the world around them especially since whenever the dungeon to do this quest pops up you could have npcs that have say just a mechanical arm or leg and perhaps have talk where they will tell you how because of people being people they see a mechanical arm and treat them like they are the killer automatons that wipe out towns and abduct people to who knows were both serving as a little direction to find the quest and making it feel like the quest itself by existing changes the world :D
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Comments

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    What I find concerning is the fact you haven't mentioned the Tulnar once, which are literally a playable monster race, that you will be able to warp to your hearts desire. Want a 'Werewolf'? Make it look like one. But an automaton race? I wouldn't find that appealing, much like the warforged in DnD, it detracts from the atmosphere of the game.
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    well ik they are the monster race you get to start as, i mean like moster races you can become! like plenty enough mmos have monster races you can START as but i think it would be badass to be like a human fallen from grace or some shit or imagine a undead litch thats also a cleric! i mean i guess they could add races like that for you to start as but that kinda feels like a cop out since now anyone can super easy just play a litch and rp wise if thats how you play as a litch or werewolf or vampire, namely being that you start as it than it kinda means you just have to make up a backround for how you became a monster. kinda feels boring and definalty to me seems more intresting to get to become those races and while things like demons and angels nad stuff would be like the tulnar were you dont Become those races but just are those races than its fine for them to be races that could be added as dlc races like the imperials in ESO
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    No, no, already too many races. Take away the filthy tulnars first, then we'll talk :)
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would 1000% agree to more races if the Intrepid was not in love with the antiquated idea of race specific armor.

    Instead of making armor that any race or gender can wear, Intrepid has chosen the hardest and worst possible path to go down with gear. Every race and gender has its version of every piece of gear. This means that the amount of work to create a single piece of gear is multiplied by the number of races in the game, then times two for each gender.

    I once again want to point out that this also limits customization. Instead of having a few orc armors that anyone could wear because they like the aesthetic. Now you have to be orc to have orcish looking gear or pray something that looks orcish is in the cash shop.

    A truly awful and flawed system that we will have to suffer from for the foreseeable life of the game. In addition to making customization worst, it also limits how easy it is to put more races in the game.

    I wish they would pull their heads out of their ass on this specific issue, but I don't think it's likely.
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    No, no, already too many races. Take away the filthy tulnars first, then we'll talk :)

    XD
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    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would 1000% agree to more races if the Intrepid was not in love with the antiquated idea of race specific armor.

    oh yea thats right.. well i mean maybe we all can convince them to make it like ESO where there are race styles that you can craft in but its not locked to any specifc race and while i guess not letting someone with a tail wear something wtih no tail hole makes sense its a matter of armor where that isnt necessary i think they could make it work on all races
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Cleric main vampire. Mhh... talking about split personality.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vvess wrote: »
    oh yea thats right.. well i mean maybe we all can convince them to make it like ESO where there are race styles that you can craft in but its not locked to any specifc race and while i guess not letting someone with a tail wear something wtih no tail hole makes sense its a matter of armor where that isnt necessary i think they could make it work on all races

    I wish,

    Of all of the things about ESO my favorite thing was learning to craft in different styles and being able to choose how your craft looked. I was not a fan of endlessly digging in bookshelves to collect all of the codex when the game came out. I just really like choosing the way something will look when you craft it. Mortal Online 2 has a good system for this too.
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    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I wish,

    Of all of the things about ESO my favorite thing was learning to craft in different styles and being able to choose how your craft looked. I was not a fan of endlessly digging in bookshelves to collect all of the codex when the game came out. I just really like choosing the way something will look when you craft it. Mortal Online 2 has a good system for this too.
    :) well keep in mind that right now were in the alpha one phase so that means that literally almost everything is subject to change going forward so if the alpha testers say loud enough which doesnt even seem to be too loud with how much intrepid seems to listen to us i think we can get them to at least consider changing it as i would say that AOC so far with the eventual 9 races and 64 classes at least character build-wise will be probably one of THE MOST customizable mmos out there and perhaps if we show them how locking appearance styles takes away our ability to make our own characters somewhat as now we are stuck looking however our race dictates with the issue being things like what if out characters story is they use magic that their race actually hates and that they have sought to turn away completely from their race or perhaps like many of the dark elves in eso where they wear essentially dwemer stuff completely becuase of their fascination with the dwemer and even ignore their races traditions like how the apostles dont care at all for the desires or threats of the dark elf clans. :D
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    @Vhaeyne
    I was aware of the race and gender specific armor but I didn't stop and think of the impact.
    I don't know why they didn't come up with something akin to XYZ scaling based on the physical size of the character. Surely that would have reduced the workload?

    Can I play a cross-dressing male Ren'Kai in a female Empyrian court evening dress?
    Can I be non-binary in a fantasy binary world?

    Okay philosophical jokes aside, how far do the options go?
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2021
    @McMackMuck

    It is basically lifted right out of Lineage 2. L2 is a great game and is very nostalgic for many of us who lived there. Not everything in L2 was outstanding. The soul-shot system, for starters. Also, among the bad things in L2 was the way gear appearance works, and I have confirmed that it is the same in Ashes. (Edit: I brought this up because like me, Steven likes L2 and takes a lot of inspiration from it.)

    If you come across a leather armor. That armor has a different appearance on each race. If an elf wears it, then it becomes elvish. That same elf could hand that same armor to an orc, and it would look orcish on the orc.

    You basically have no options outside of dyes and cosmetics. You can also transmog and mix and match parts. This is a step up from l2, but it's still limited in a way that I think if more of the community understood. There would be pitchforks. I think rightfully so, too. The game would only be better if this stupid system was discarded.
    When you say, what if I'm an Orc but want to look like an Elf and I want my Eagle set to be the Elf representation? Well the issue becomes there that you know Orcs have a different organic model. You know, their body is different than that of the Elf. So, from a scope-creep standpoint, it's one thing to add different influences that represent the cultures that are donning the armor; it's another thing to adapt each influence as a matrix that can be worn pretty much by everything. From a scope perspective, that's a very difficult task for the character artists to kind of tackle. So instead what we've done is, in order to facilitate a variety of cultural representation between the races but allow for the sharing of assets like different armor sets, we give different representations of those armor sets to each race.[29] – Steven Sharif

    Here is Steven trying to sell the system like it's a good thing. People coming from less restrictive MMORPGs will be very frustrated with this limitation when old games have better customization.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    If ESO can manage it, then I've no doubt the awesome folk at Intrepid can rock it.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Here is Steven trying to sell the system like it's a good thing. People coming from less restrictive MMORPGs will be very frustrated with this limitation when old games have better customization.

    I'll just be happy if a full breastplate on a male character doesn't turn into a chainmail bikini on a female one. WoW still does that kind of thing.
     
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    JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2021
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/310393/#Comment_310393

    Relinking this discussion as it appears to be directly relevant given the turn in conversation. I will also relink my survey question and context to it given the circumstances. I already know Vhaeyne's answer in nuanced detail, so am more so interested in others opinions.

    While @Vhaeyne is correct about technology having been improved relative to this(racial armor that can be wearable by all races) there are some indirect trade offs we as a community need to consider.

    1. In order to achieve this you need similar body shapes that are scalable to each other's models. In other words that means a beefy T shaped torso Dunir would have to be less T shaped and in line with other models proportions to make it less difficult to scale up for a tubular scrawny elf. Therefore less distinct racial silhouettes.

    2. You need to approach the rigging for character models ahead of time to create different areas for rescaling. More simply that means that you need to build all models with the 'bones' of the characters relative to their armor models in mind first. This apparently doesn't cost too many resources to do BUT

    3. The more 'bones' and the more difference in shape/size (orc vs dunir) the more likely clipping on all armor models is likely to be, not just different racial ones (so more dev time for this in all armor sets is required.)


    Therefore I see three tradeoffs we need to consider if we want to make this work.

    A.. If you want to do this you need less distinct racial silhouettes. However ashes current models are in line with this at the moment according to my friend. So not a lot of work would need to be done on that front. (Eso definitely follows this)

    B. If you want to do this but with more distinct silhouettes you need to accept that more clipping will occur in armor sets as a generality and more extreme with these 'borrowed' sets (presumably the clipping on same race armor is going to be worked on regardless, but this adds more variables making it harder to catch in development.) (FFXI does this to some degree. Mithra tail clips through armor pieces, and generally racial variation in sets is minimized but there is also by design less things that could clip in the first place leading to flatter/less complex designs with little to no physics. Hard to say how the modern gaming crowd would react to that these days.)

    C. If you don't want clipping to occur and you want distinct racial silhouettes you can probably make specialised models for fewer top end core sets. Given the specified goal here is 'trophy' by op this might be acceptable when combined with the death stamp tag already mentioned.

    D. None of the above are acceptable, do not implement the system given these trade offs.

    E. The same as D but also specifically limit differences in visuals for armor sets.

    Given the lack of infinite resources for Intrepid, which choice do you preffer. Given 2 it sounds like it is better to come to a consensus on this before Alpha 2.

    In the context of this conversation note that more races either means 'an increase in similar silhouettes among races' or 'an increase in difficulty relative to implementing a system with no racial armor.' I expect the Tulnar to already be either a huge challenge for the devs or huge frustration for people who were existing a lot of customization out of the Tulnar depending on implementation.
    Small print leads to large risks.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @JustVine

    The silhouette limitation goes out the window when you realize that Aion, PSO2(The old one) and City of Heroes. All let you have total control over your character silhouettes at character creation with an acceptable amount of clipping. Basically, you had to really be pushing the limits of possible anatomy to make it happen.

    While technically, my answer would be "B" the way you frame the question makes it seem like the trade-offs are a bigger deal than they are. Also consider that FFXIV, unlike FFXI also uses "B" but makes the appropriate change where needed. For example, a hood on the cat race would have cat eat shaped bumps on the head to show the cat years are pushing the fabric in the same way you would expect if the race was real.

    The bottom line here is that other much older games can do "B" just fine without painting themselves into a corner when it comes to the amount of work it takes to introduce a race or just a single armor set. Additionally, they are not limiting the players nearly as much. Final Fantasy still has racial armor sets and class armor sets, but they do it as a choice to give them a district option. The tech they use would allow any race to wear any armor with only a little tweaking on their end. Additionally, they have started to allow more males and females to wear each other's cloths and have said they want to be more progressive about this in the future. This last part is a little off-topic, but it shows that gendered armor is always a choice and not a rule.

    Knowing you know how I feel, I only answered this time because I looked at my answer in that past thread and don't feel like I made my case as clear as I could.
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    JustVine wrote: »
    Therefore I see three tradeoffs we need to consider if we want to make this work.

    A.. If you want to do this you need less distinct racial silhouettes. However ashes current models are in line with this at the moment according to my friend. So not a lot of work would need to be done on that front. (Eso definitely follows this)

    B. If you want to do this but with more distinct silhouettes you need to accept that more clipping will occur in armor sets as a generality and more extreme with these 'borrowed' sets (presumably the clipping on same race armor is going to be worked on regardless, but this adds more variables making it harder to catch in development.) (FFXI does this to some degree. Mithra tail clips through armor pieces, and generally racial variation in sets is minimized but there is also by design less things that could clip in the first place leading to flatter/less complex designs with little to no physics. Hard to say how the modern gaming crowd would react to that these days.)

    C. If you don't want clipping to occur and you want distinct racial silhouettes you can probably make specialised models for fewer top end core sets. Given the specified goal here is 'trophy' by op this might be acceptable when combined with the death stamp tag already mentioned.

    D. None of the above are acceptable, do not implement the system given these trade offs.

    E. The same as D but also specifically limit differences in visuals for armor sets.

    Given the lack of infinite resources for Intrepid, which choice do you preffer. Given 2 it sounds like it is better to come to a consensus on this before Alpha 2.

    In the context of this conversation note that more races either means 'an increase in similar silhouettes among races' or 'an increase in difficulty relative to implementing a system with no racial armor.' I expect the Tulnar to already be either a huge challenge for the devs or huge frustration for people who were existing a lot of customization out of the Tulnar depending on implementation.
    no.... flat out no... the only con i see is you would need to take more time to remake the armor to fit each race but thats it.... and the trade off is customization going through the roof and more than the the fact that the current mmo scene has that as a base level standard meaning you dont moderately piss off a big part of your community and permanantly sour them on a portion of your game. all in all i think your flat out wrong because the way you say it its like you think the only option is take the current armor models and make them fit all races and so either they will clip a lot or the silhouettes have to change but thats completely incorrect and dare i say completely ignorant of the situation

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    also i dont feel this current conversation goes off the initial topic since the initial topic was adding more races and the current conversation adresses the bigges issue with that being that the specific types of races i suggested be added were ones that any character can technically become meaning they wouldnt have race specific armor and that in general that was the biggest issue is more races is great but if their armor style is something you feel sucks hard than theres nothing you can do about it.
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    JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vvess wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Therefore I see three tradeoffs we need to consider if we want to make this work.

    A.. If you want to do this you need less distinct racial silhouettes. However ashes current models are in line with this at the moment according to my friend. So not a lot of work would need to be done on that front. (Eso definitely follows this)

    B. If you want to do this but with more distinct silhouettes you need to accept that more clipping will occur in armor sets as a generality and more extreme with these 'borrowed' sets (presumably the clipping on same race armor is going to be worked on regardless, but this adds more variables making it harder to catch in development.) (FFXI does this to some degree. Mithra tail clips through armor pieces, and generally racial variation in sets is minimized but there is also by design less things that could clip in the first place leading to flatter/less complex designs with little to no physics. Hard to say how the modern gaming crowd would react to that these days.)

    C. If you don't want clipping to occur and you want distinct racial silhouettes you can probably make specialised models for fewer top end core sets. Given the specified goal here is 'trophy' by op this might be acceptable when combined with the death stamp tag already mentioned.

    D. None of the above are acceptable, do not implement the system given these trade offs.

    E. The same as D but also specifically limit differences in visuals for armor sets.

    Given the lack of infinite resources for Intrepid, which choice do you preffer. Given 2 it sounds like it is better to come to a consensus on this before Alpha 2.

    In the context of this conversation note that more races either means 'an increase in similar silhouettes among races' or 'an increase in difficulty relative to implementing a system with no racial armor.' I expect the Tulnar to already be either a huge challenge for the devs or huge frustration for people who were existing a lot of customization out of the Tulnar depending on implementation.
    no.... flat out no... the only con i see is you would need to take more time to remake the armor to fit each race but thats it.... and the trade off is customization going through the roof and more than the the fact that the current mmo scene has that as a base level standard meaning you dont moderately piss off a big part of your community and permanantly sour them on a portion of your game. all in all i think your flat out wrong because the way you say it its like you think the only option is take the current armor models and make them fit all races and so either they will clip a lot or the silhouettes have to change but thats completely incorrect and dare i say completely ignorant of the situation

    What do you think I am wrong about exactly? It's unclear to me.
    Small print leads to large risks.
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    VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    I, too, want to live out my fantasy of being a (not a furry, before anyone suggests it) werewolf. Tulnar here I come!

    But.. Then again.. The Niküa are so cool...
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    unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Hmmmm. Vaknar backdoor confirms Tulnar werewolves. News at 11.
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    Hmmmm. Vaknar backdoor confirms Tulnar werewolves. News at 11.

    wait so like human lookin dudes that turn into were wolves or no? because if no than thats what i mean on that front is proper lycanthropes
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    unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Vvess wrote: »
    Hmmmm. Vaknar backdoor confirms Tulnar werewolves. News at 11.

    wait so like human lookin dudes that turn into were wolves or no? because if no than thats what i mean on that front is proper lycanthropes

    No, that is not a thing as of last information given planned for Ashes. Teased as possible racial skins down the line, but never a gold name confirmation either way.
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    Vvess wrote: »
    Hmmmm. Vaknar backdoor confirms Tulnar werewolves. News at 11.

    wait so like human lookin dudes that turn into were wolves or no? because if no than thats what i mean on that front is proper lycanthropes

    I do not believe you will be doing transforming. Humanoid frame, animal features etc.


    To the OP:

    Nothing wrong with more races, just get the ones you're featuring done first before adding more work to the pile of projects.
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    JustVine wrote: »
    What do you think I am wrong about exactly? It's unclear to me.

    the fact that the silhouettes dont have to change nor do we have to accept clipping when they can just take the racial armors they have and just make versions that fit each races silhouettes. As best as i could tell by what you wrote you were at least presenting it as tho the only options are throw out the silhouettes or accept that there would be a lot of clipping and that is a false dicotmy where really its just that it should be the case that they take the extra time to make all armors possible to be worn by any race especially since it would make being a blacksmith and selling crafted gear even more important and intresting as crafters would craft things in specific styles and so people would perhaps need to go to crafters to buy gear from them helping the in game commerce.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    People were talking about Tulnar in this thread, reminded me. I would like to use Tulnar as evidence that the "Technical Limitations" are made up nonsense.

    I submit to the court exhibit A, The Tulnar Silhouettes:
    tul%27nar1.png

    Straight from Intrepid themselves.
    Tulnar is the only race with the capability to adjust racial appearance in a significant manner.

    Just because we all like Intrepid does not mean they are right 100% of the time. The limitations are clearly a design choice. A choice I dislike.

    It looks like Intrepid has decided for us that Tulnar are to be the most popular race.
    Why would I choose to hamstring my choices with any other race?
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    unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Those silhouettes were whipped up during the KS and were disavowed later as being indicative of what the Tulnar are going to be. Many things that were thrown out as ideas during 2017 have not survived the development process and have changed.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Those silhouettes were whipped up during the KS and were disavowed later as being indicative of what the Tulnar are going to be. Many things that were thrown out as ideas during 2017 have not survived the development process and have changed.

    I don't know that to be true. Unless, you can find a newer quote that specifically overrules anything I have seen.

    Remember, Steven has stated that he wants every race to feel distinctive regardless of what they are wearing.

    While simultaneously having elves in the game that have the same silhouettes as humans. To the point that I have had to zoom in on people's ears many times to figure out if they are an elf or human in alpha. These guys were wearing elvish armor too, but from a normal playing level of zoom it's hard to tell. So, the whole idea of having things look distinct is kind of a moot point in this case. At least with elves and humans.

    Frodo wore elvish chain mail and carried a short sword that was made by an elf who hated orcs so much, it made the weapon glow when orcs were near. It's not uncommon for people to wear other races gear in fantasy. It's a staple of the genre.

    Yes, this is alpha and yes things can change, but I think this is a horse worth beating.
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    Vaknar wrote: »
    I, too, want to live out my fantasy of being a (not a furry, before anyone suggests it) werewolf. Tulnar here I come!

    But.. Then again.. The Niküa are so cool...

    giphy.gif
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    To the OP:

    Nothing wrong with more races, just get the ones you're featuring done first before adding more work to the pile of projects.

    fair, fair.. i mean to be honest thats what i figured as thats how eso did it anyway and it makes sense to do it like this with the type of races i mentioned where you have the main races than as time goes on you just add quests and dungeons that let you acess these new race options later down the line as nodes change and evolve on the servers
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    also vhaeyne, the point to playing other races than tulnar is their abilities as intrepid has made it very clear that race plays a LARGE part in how a specific build comes out even more than games like ESO so while there will be people like me and you probably who play tulnar and nothing else because tulnar go brrrrr! people could still play other races like humans or dwarfs to make their build really come out feeling how they want it to and those would be your min maxers and if they decide to really make the tulnar feel like monsters than they could give the tulnar amazing strength and awesome racial passives but that come with perhaps massive damage increases to things like holy magic or perhaps a weakness to flame especially if they specific type of tulnar you are would change your passives like a cat tulnar and reptile tulnar both being tulnar but having different racial abilities more in like with the type of animals they are mixed with like cat tulnar say being more weak to fire than reptile tulnar who may actually be resistant to fire because of their fur or so on and so on. really its all down to how they deicde to fully implement the racial passives
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