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Guild Gathering #11 - Spies and Intrigue

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Comments

  • The first thing that came to mind was the Great Betrayal in Eve Online awhile back
    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/how-eve-online-theft-ended-in-death-threats.

    There will be "out of band" spying; the higher the stakes the more people will try and work around any in game controls you put into place. You should definitely have those controls to protect guilds against it as much as possible but its going to happen.

    From an in-game perspective, the PvP aspect of spies and hunting spies could be fun. I think with the caravan and node mechanics really do give some fun opportunity for some interesting PvP. For example: being able to "steal" the time and manifest contents of a caravan could be super cool. Having that information only available at certain times and have other classes have the ability to "see" spies under the right conditions could be very cool. Say the Assassin class can steal the caravan info but Striders and Wardens have the ability to spot them. All mages can lay traps that mark Assassins for everyone to see, but Shadow casters have some particularly high level ones. Kind of a capture the flag component. Disabling or reducing node effectiveness could work in a similar way, with charlatans being the class that can sneak in with a disguise and disable a node and other classes able to see through their disguise. Setting up Bad intel, false flags etc... all could be super fun.

    That said, put it in a dlc. I am already ready for the game to come out :)
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    MetalDad wrote: »
    The first thing that came to mind was the Great Betrayal in Eve Online awhile back
    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/how-eve-online-theft-ended-in-death-threats.

    There will be "out of band" spying; the higher the stakes the more people will try and work around any in game controls you put into place. You should definitely have those controls to protect guilds against it as much as possible but its going to happen.

    From an in-game perspective, the PvP aspect of spies and hunting spies could be fun. I think with the caravan and node mechanics really do give some fun opportunity for some interesting PvP. For example: being able to "steal" the time and manifest contents of a caravan could be super cool. Having that information only available at certain times and have other classes have the ability to "see" spies under the right conditions could be very cool. Say the Assassin class can steal the caravan info but Striders and Wardens have the ability to spot them. All mages can lay traps that mark Assassins for everyone to see, but Shadow casters have some particularly high level ones. Kind of a capture the flag component. Disabling or reducing node effectiveness could work in a similar way, with charlatans being the class that can sneak in with a disguise and disable a node and other classes able to see through their disguise. Setting up Bad intel, false flags etc... all could be super fun.

    That said, put it in a dlc. I am already ready for the game to come out :)

    Whoa, I like the idea of messing with caravans - would it be too far to be able to reschedule caravans/forge documents to take charge of someone else's caravan/Trojan Caravan?
    Problem remains that there's a lot to gain for criminal activity with not much to show for skillful counterplay.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • MetalDad wrote: »
    For example: being able to "steal" the time and manifest contents of a caravan could be super cool. Having that information only available at certain times and have other classes have the ability to "see" spies under the right conditions could be very cool.

    If I'm being honest, with nodes being in direct competition with each other, this is something I expected as a default mission that nearby nodes might spawn. The game has this system where the nodes and surrounding content are all intertwined, so that when players activate something in a node, it triggers corresponding content in the surrounding environment or competing nodes. When someone schedules a caravan transport at a node, it should cost them some amount of money. I fully expect that node to spawn quests that use that money as rewards to entice other players to provide security and escort that caravan safely. On the other hand, there should be quests spawned for players to raid those caravans at the surrounding competing nodes. If they want to add a layer of spies and intrigue to the game, adding an intermediary quest that requires a spy to obtain the caravan schedule before the caravan raid quests can be issued at that node, I would absolutely support that.

    If the developers aren't already thinking that deeply about what kind of content to include in the game, well that really, really worries me.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dolyem wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    If spying actually became a game mechanic thing I would make so if anyone were caught they would be strung up(character locked) for a day or 2, and have their gear equipped at the time of discovery stripped from them and pawned for the guild they were spying against. Big Risk vs Big Reward.

    I wouldn't call this a big risk.

    9 times out of 10, the spy is a throw away character created solely for the purpose of spying. If it is discovered to be a spy, the reason for that character continuing to exist ceases.

    This is what I was saying earlier about the risk. There is already a time sink in spying, that is the risk.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    If spying actually became a game mechanic thing I would make so if anyone were caught they would be strung up(character locked) for a day or 2, and have their gear equipped at the time of discovery stripped from them and pawned for the guild they were spying against. Big Risk vs Big Reward.

    I wouldn't call this a big risk.

    9 times out of 10, the spy is a throw away character created solely for the purpose of spying. If it is discovered to be a spy, the reason for that character continuing to exist ceases.

    This is what I was saying earlier about the risk. There is already a time sink in spying, that is the risk.

    Thats actually a really good point, so what if you can only spy at max level? That would be wayyyy more time invested and the name would be known as a spy from that point on.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    MetalDad wrote: »
    For example: being able to "steal" the time and manifest contents of a caravan could be super cool.
    The problem with this is that the game doesn't have that information.

    Caravans are - for the most part - a player initiated thing, they leave when a player wants to run a caravan.

    If I have a caravan of valuable materials that I am wanting to transport, there is no way I am going to interact with any in game system that will allow a rival to know my plans. I am going to transport it when and how I think is safest.
  • JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    Why ever should it cost an extra $15 a month?
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  • The penalty for getting caught is the enormous time sink that it took to get there. It takes a loooooong time to weasel your way into an enemy group, especially if they're expecting it. Getting the boot (and likely a Kill On Sight from every one of them) effectively makes you redundant and all that time wasted.
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 7
    daveywavey wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    Why ever should it cost an extra $15 a month?

    If you are spying on me from your main account (assuming you want to maintain your main character while spying), I will know about it.

    The only way you can effectively spy on my guild is to use a clean account - which obviously costs $15 a month.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    Why ever should it cost an extra $15 a month?

    If you are spying on me from your main account (assuming you want to maintain your main character while spying), I will know about it.

    The only way you can effectively spy on my guild is to use a clean account - which obviously costs $15 a month.

    If I'm happy to use one of what will be many many alts for it, I don't need a second account.
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    I personally am more interested in how many people think spying should cost an extra 15$ a month if Intrepid can't come up with a better way for making Spies have a real risk for their reward.

    Why ever should it cost an extra $15 a month?

    If you are spying on me from your main account (assuming you want to maintain your main character while spying), I will know about it.

    The only way you can effectively spy on my guild is to use a clean account - which obviously costs $15 a month.

    If I'm happy to use one of what will be many many alts for it, I don't need a second account.
    You are free to go for it.

    However, I will know who your main is - this is especially true if I suspect your guild of planting a spy. If I suspect that, it isn't even a fair contest, tbh.
  • I'll have to make sure I don't name my spy: "Daveywavey The Spy", then!
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 7
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'll have to make sure I don't name my spy: "Daveywavey The Spy", then!

    I mean, that would be a give away. However, the game has a number of built in giveaways that are honestly no less telling.

    Edit; literally anything that is account only (including the ability to log on to one character on your account at a time), can be used against you in this specific situation. Think about how many things in Ashes are tied to accounts, and honestly you don't stand a chance at being a spy without a second account.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I am uncertain as to how you would go about avoiding detection.

    You would need to have no alts on the account that are citizens of a node - any node. You would also need to have no alts that are known members of a rival guild - and a few other small details that I am not going to go in to.

    This means that for all intents and purposes, that character may as well be the only one on the account.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    I am uncertain as to how you would go about avoiding detection.

    You would need to have no alts on the account that are citizens of a node - any node. You would also need to have no alts that are known members of a rival guild - and a few other small details that I am not going to go in to.

    This means that for all intents and purposes, that character may as well be the only one on the account.

    I guess it depends how they're doing the whole Alt thing. If you can see whatever character I'm playing on cos one of my characters is in your guild, then I guess it'd be a problem. The benefits of citizenship don't seem to be that massive that missing out would be an issue.

    Given that "Intrigue, espionage and intelligence gathering is a legitimate aspect of the game.", I can't see them making it too easy or giving absolutely everything away.

    In another game I played, I became an officer in the guild of our arch-enemy, after being invited by the player that was actively hunting down my main character. There are ways to play the game. You just have to be willing to put the time and effort in.
    Daveywavey-member.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    daveywavey wrote: »
    If you can see whatever character I'm playing on cos one of my characters is in your guild, then I guess it'd be a problem.
    I have no expectation of them doing this.

    That is information I am able to find out easily enough. I have yet to play an MMO where this information wasn't able to be obtained if you knew how to look for it.

    Which is the whole point here. I can fairly easily find out what other characters are on your account (fairly easy in comparison to leveling up a character to be a spy). You have no real way of hiding that, other than having no assets on those characters, and not logging in to them at all while you are spying on my guild.
  • I think there's nothing to do about that in game, but giving the leader or the ''officers'' of the guild the option to see if a player is being productive for the guild and not just being there is the only thing you could and should do about spying, there's no way to counter or making it easy that would not harm the game in a way. Just make the accomplishes, the activity and productivity of player to be seen by others, so they can kick him or call him out, that if he doesn't start to work he'll' be banned from the guild.
  • CawwCaww Member
    As others have stated, it's going to be done anyway so there may as well be an interesting system that everyone understands. I'm not creative enough to offer ideas but I would also caution against "mission creep". Just establishing a solid baseline game would allow for future extra features while people pummel each other in the meantime.
  • GodIsHereForUGodIsHereForU Member
    edited January 7
    yes but have it a clearly defined game mechanic. Not just a guy who joins the guild to steal loot and troll dungeons. Have it be an actual class option. If it had a tech tree that would be bad ass. Maybe a rouge option trait where you can appear as unaffiliated, allowing you to join another guild while remaining loyal and attached to your original guild. Maybe even make it a quest where you have to grind a hard quest to get the item that lets you go undercover, and have to get a new one every time your caught. And have an interesting way for them to be caught. A cat and mouse thing is much better than just a -oh hey youse sus *click* hehe oh youse an imposter *kill* resolve. also risk reward needs to be taken into account as always.
  • CCC_DanteCCC_Dante Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 7
    Overall, I think the idea sounds good in itself BUT I see more problems with it than it would have advantages.
    This could lead to more drama overall and also leads to more toxicity between guilds and players.
    Which could harm the game itsself.

    It also depends on what the plans for the "espionage system" would be. If done well it could definitely be an interesting system, which makes ashes more interesting overall.
    In my opinion, this would only make sense if the game was going a "competitive" path, and if the game goes that way it usually ends up anyway there with or without a spy system.

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  • DolyemDolyem Member
    @daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.

    pretty much, if anything it allows for even more cover to do out of game spying.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.

    pretty much, if anything it allows for even more cover to do out of game spying.

    Indeed.

    Step 1 of being a successful spy if there are in game systems for it would be to infuriate the guild twice, once normally and once using the in game systems. Then you "catch" yourself, increasing the trust the guild has in you.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.

    pretty much, if anything it allows for even more cover to do out of game spying.

    Indeed.

    Step 1 of being a successful spy if there are in game systems for it would be to infuriate the guild twice, once normally and once using the in game systems. Then you "catch" yourself, increasing the trust the guild has in you.

    shhhhh, dont tell everyone how to spy
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.

    pretty much, if anything it allows for even more cover to do out of game spying.

    Indeed.

    Step 1 of being a successful spy if there are in game systems for it would be to infuriate the guild twice, once normally and once using the in game systems. Then you "catch" yourself, increasing the trust the guild has in you.

    shhhhh, dont tell everyone how to spy

    It's ok.

    Step 1 is easy. It's step 7 we don't want them to know about.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    daveywavey I can't wait to go big brain and just ignore the in game spy mechanics to do typical out of game spying. I already have thought of a lot of spicy ideas.

    Yeah, this is why any in game system for spying just isn't worth it.

    pretty much, if anything it allows for even more cover to do out of game spying.

    Indeed.

    Step 1 of being a successful spy if there are in game systems for it would be to infuriate the guild twice, once normally and once using the in game systems. Then you "catch" yourself, increasing the trust the guild has in you.

    shhhhh, dont tell everyone how to spy

    It's ok.

    Step 1 is easy. It's step 7 we don't want them to know about.


    thinkin like a trickster
    nj7FLSS.gif
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • MetalDadMetalDad Member
    edited January 7
    Noaani wrote: »
    MetalDad wrote: »
    For example: being able to "steal" the time and manifest contents of a caravan could be super cool.
    The problem with this is that the game doesn't have that information.

    Caravans are - for the most part - a player initiated thing, they leave when a player wants to run a caravan.

    If I have a caravan of valuable materials that I am wanting to transport, there is no way I am going to interact with any in game system that will allow a rival to know my plans. I am going to transport it when and how I think is safest.

    I havent played yet, so I obviously am just working from what info is out there.
    From the wiki:
    Quest driven caravans
    Quest driven caravans are used for trade routes between nodes. These caravans are system driven.[10]

    These are initiated by players with a diverse choice of routes and launch windows, making them difficult to zerg.[12]
    Initiating a caravan from one node to another will create a PvP objective that players will need to defend while it moves along its chosen route to the selected destination.[2]
    Node-based caravan stats and capabilities scale with their node's advancement.
    Roads will upgrade as nodes advance. Different roads will dictate the speed and type of caravan required (off road vs on road).[13]
    The caravan system is designed to be initiated by the player. Which means, information of the caravans launch time and route, should be a closely guarded secret. Routes will also be diverse, and the world is large, so it might behoove you to scout the route ahead before a launch. Fast travel in our game is also limited, which means unless the guild had knowledge of your plans before hand, it is likely that they will be unable to organize and travel to a location. As far as mass guilds securing trade routes, there is always a bigger fish in the pond. Also caravans will have limitations on carrying capacity and launch windows that will segment mulitiple caravans by several minutes, which would space out the caravans, making it difficult to "zerg" a defense.[12] – Steven Sharif

    So it sounds like Routes and launch windows are, while player initiated, scheduled events. So it could work, I believe, based on what we know now. The wiki goes on to talk about inventory so a manifest, time and route would be the three bits of information that could be stolen. Player driven caravans are different then the mayor driven caravans that drive the PvP events is my understanding.

    Another thought would be to have the ability to "bribe" caravan NPC guards, so when the attack comes they run or fight FOR the bandits. Double agent oppertunity if the Guards can be bribed back...

    That kind of thing would add some fun dynamics to caravan and node raids for sure.
    " Pat tried to steal the plans, but got caught and killed. Joe tried andgot the the time and part of the route, Beth bribed 4/10 guards... we should be able to take this. 6pm wendsday meet here"
    Then they show up and its 12 guards and extra players because they new that they were there... fun times ;)
  • Bribing NPC seems excessive.
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