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Learning from BDOs PvP Server

tobi1577tobi1577 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
BDO did (in my opinion) a really good job when it came to PvP servers, which I will 1) explain and 2) try to convince you why something similar should be in ashes.

How BDO servers work (background)

To start off, BDO characters are not registered to a server, but a region. This means you can freely (with a 10 min cd) swap between servers, playing any character on said server. BDO currently hosts 37 normal servers and one PvP server (on NA, ignoring Season/Olvia).

How does BDO's PvP server work?

On a normal server: Users may flag up to engage in open world PvP. If the aggressor kills the other person, they lose Karma, which after a while will make a player go red, similar to being corrupted in Ashes.

On the PvP server: Users do not receive penalties for killing other players in the open world. For this increased danger posed on one grinding on this server, a +50% item drop rate is applied server wide. (In effect, this ends up increasing one's profit while grinding by ~20%).

Why is this a good thing?

1. It is a great risk vs. reward structure, where you can risk more (can get killed with no penalty to the aggressor) to get more (higher item drop chance), allowing for interesting player decisions.
2. It concentrates players with an itch for open world PvP into one small place where they can enjoy the game the way they want with other players who are opting into the same thing. This means less people are getting griefed by players looking to satisfy that itch.
3. Players are allowed to enter and leave this server whenever, not requiring a commitment when registering a character that locks them into being able to partake in this no hold open world PvP.
4. While there are other mechanisms to get no hold open world PvP, like guild wars, there's something extra about entering a zone and knowing you can fight anyone you see without repercussions (other than dying yourself) and knowing you are not being a jerk since the other person opted into this as well.

How could this manifest in Ashes?

While the difference in the way servers work would not allow for this system to be copied directly into ashes, there are ways ashes could create this effect. Here are a few ideas for how one could achieve this.

1. Militaristic nodes of the Metropolis stage have the option to construct a building that, under the mayor's command, can select a certain hunting ground or dungeon in the node's zone of influence. Around this area there is a visual indicator (purple line on ground, fire wall, etc.) that, once the player crosses, flags them for PvP against all other players in this area who are not allied with the player in some way. Drop tables have a higher chance in this area. Exp loss on death is removed, but the gatherables / processed good dropping on death remains as normal.

2. Same as above, but there is 1 zone per server that moves around randomly (once a week or so). This removes control by the players on the server, but gives permanence (not requiring a militaristic metropolis) and can move anywhere on the map, allowing for the existance of PvP nomads who follow this zone around the map.

3. Player groups with a ship can enlist to be a pirate that, upon enabling, enables the crew to see treasure marked on the map. All pirate crews are flagged towards each other and see the same treasure on the map. A treasure run, if not interrupted by other players, would give 1.5x to 2x the gold of a comparable non-PvP merchant run.

Would love to see everyone's input for if this design idea of PvP would be beneficial to Ashes and how else this design idea could be implemented.

Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 4
    I started playing bdo again on my christmas break. I even took a picture of the world lists beside my character, wanting to start a topic about how bad this concept is.

    And how STUPID it is.

    PvP and PvE are not optional in AoC, get right with that.
    You wont jump back and forth to safe servers and "leTS dO soME pVPeee nOw..." servers as you will, with the same characters.


    BDO was made yesterday, but the open world, nowhere is safe, was at more than a decade before the way to play.
    And also no, in mmos you need to protect all forms of gameplay, not just mindless PvP.
    The corruption system will apply to every node and sea. Only monthly sieges will be zones that death penalties and corruption doesnt work.

    There wont be separation of PvP and PvE in any form. Server/worlds/channels.
  • tobi1577tobi1577 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You wont jump back and forth to safe servers and "leTS dO soME pVPeee nOw..." servers as you will, with the same characters.

    Never in my post did I advocate for a BDO style server system to be implemented, and even acknowledged that the two games are different in their approach to servers and would require different implementations of the base design idea I was promoting.

    That design idea being an increased risk from opting into all open world PvP in some "zone", while having the potential to gain more from this system than one could get without PvP enabled.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I started playing bdo again on my christmas break. I even took a picture of the world lists beside my character, wanting to start a topic about how bad this concept is.

    And how STUPID it is.

    PvP and PvE are not optional in AoC, get right with that.
    You wont jump back and forth to safe servers and "leTS dO soME pVPeee nOw..." servers as you will, with the same characters.


    BDO was made yesterday, but the open world, nowhere is safe, was at more than a decade before the way to play.
    And also no, in mmos you need to protect all forms of gameplay, not just mindless PvP.
    The corruption system will apply to every node and sea. Only monthly sieges will be zones that death penalties and corruption doesnt work.

    There wont be separation of PvP and PvE in any form. Server/worlds/channels.

    If I am reading you right, you think that BDO's Karma system isn't good enough right?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 4
    JustVine wrote: »
    I started playing bdo again on my christmas break. I even took a picture of the world lists beside my character, wanting to start a topic about how bad this concept is.

    And how STUPID it is.

    PvP and PvE are not optional in AoC, get right with that.
    You wont jump back and forth to safe servers and "leTS dO soME pVPeee nOw..." servers as you will, with the same characters.


    BDO was made yesterday, but the open world, nowhere is safe, was at more than a decade before the way to play.
    And also no, in mmos you need to protect all forms of gameplay, not just mindless PvP.
    The corruption system will apply to every node and sea. Only monthly sieges will be zones that death penalties and corruption doesnt work.

    There wont be separation of PvP and PvE in any form. Server/worlds/channels.

    If I am reading you right, you think that BDO's Karma system isn't good enough right?

    Not when you swap from one server to another to get away from your killers.
    And ye, you read that 100% wrong.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Oh so you do think it's good enough it's just that you don't like server switching. Got it.
  • GankezGankez Member
    trammel... smh
    cp5Rnj3.png
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    few points to be made i think:
    firstly, just to cover it, Ashes isn't following BDO's shard-like server system so can't isolate it to 'servers', regions viable in isolation, as has been addressed.
    the idea of just openly killing players without consequence like Arsha doesn't fit the theme of Ashes:
    Ashes' lore/setting is that after great catastrophise, all races but the Tulnar leave the world through the gateways (forgot the lore name there, wiki has it) and left for a long time. We the players are part of the first few waves of forces returning to the world to take it back for ourselves as it once was - we're all on the same team.
    HOWEVER, sieges etc make sense also because political powers would want to establish themselves - guilds are an example here - just as countries do.
    But straight up mindless murder, for the intent on looting in such a setting is not desired, we're meant to compete but our minds unified - This is why the corruption system exists as it does, to punish those who are truly against the ideology that we, in the world, exist to uphold.

    Another point about your moving PvP zones, there are already opt-in PvP features with rewards: arena, sieges and the Caravan PvP system are some examples you can look into further
    Caravan PvP is literally a moving PvP zone, attackers vs defenders on a caravan pathing from Node X to Node Y.
    Attackers want to kill and the guards (mix of players and npcs) and destroy the caravan so that it can be looted for a portion of it's goods.
    Defenders want to defend it to get paid their fee when it arrives at the target destination.

    to me though, if you're not willing to, as we know in BDO, go red for your spot, then you have no right to try claim it..
    'duel for spot' or 'spot taken' won't exist here either I doubt.
    flag, leave or grief seems to be how it's going end up.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • People worried about server swap for silly PvP reasons and I'm over here wondering how much that could wreck an economy like what is planned for in AoC ..
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 13
    tobi1577 wrote: »
    That design idea being an increased risk from opting into all open world PvP in some "zone", while having the potential to gain more from this system than one could get without PvP enabled.

    "Opting into all open world PvP" is one of the main contributing reasons to New World's spectacular flame-out, @tobi1577.

    That shouldn't be breaking news for players.
  • HasilHasil Member
    For my part, I always preferred separate PvP and PvE zones/events, none of this corruption mechanic (AOC) or flagging up (NW). I preferred and thought the systems in GW2, Warhammer Online, ESO, DAOC, etc. were better -- allowed for good PvP without the mindless bravado and toxicity of having zones where you can get ganked while PvEing.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Hasil wrote: »
    For my part, I always preferred separate PvP and PvE zones/events, none of this corruption mechanic (AOC) or flagging up (NW). I preferred and thought the systems in GW2, Warhammer Online, ESO, DAOC, etc. were better -- allowed for good PvP without the mindless bravado and toxicity of having zones where you can get ganked while PvEing.

    I love Tetris but I don’t expect that kind of gameplay either from AoC which is a very different kind of game.

    None of the games you list are PvX, which is its own genre.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • HasilHasil Member
    Atama wrote: »
    I love Tetris but I don’t expect that kind of gameplay either from AoC which is a very different kind of game.

    None of the games you list are PvX, which is its own genre.

    Right, I guess what I am saying is the PvX genre, to the degree that it mixes PvE and PvP zones, tends to be more toxic and less enjoyable. I think as a game design philosophy/model it's just not as good as the design of the games I listed. And I think it tends to have reduced longevity and player satisfaction.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Hasil wrote: »
    For my part, I always preferred separate PvP and PvE zones/events, none of this corruption mechanic (AOC) or flagging up (NW). I preferred and thought the systems in GW2, Warhammer Online, ESO, DAOC, etc. were better -- allowed for good PvP without the mindless bravado and toxicity of having zones where you can get ganked while PvEing.
    Hasil wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    I love Tetris but I don’t expect that kind of gameplay either from AoC which is a very different kind of game.

    None of the games you list are PvX, which is its own genre.

    Right, I guess what I am saying is the PvX genre, to the degree that it mixes PvE and PvP zones, tends to be more toxic and less enjoyable. I think as a game design philosophy/model it's just not as good as the design of the games I listed. And I think it tends to have reduced longevity and player satisfaction.

    How come you dont play those games and you are looking for something new?
    Is it because they bored you, them being so meaningless?
  • HasilHasil Member
    edited January 13
    How come you dont play those games and you are looking for something new?
    Is it because they bored you, them being so meaningless?

    DAOC I had to stop playing because of work and didn't want to go back and spoil my perfect memories :)

    ESO - performance could never support the game's PvP potential. The performance in Cyro is still bad to this day.

    Warhammer - sadly, shut down.

    GW2 - I still play.

    But I am looking for something new (like we all are) just because I want that perfect PvP MMO that lasts for years and years.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Hasil wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    I love Tetris but I don’t expect that kind of gameplay either from AoC which is a very different kind of game.

    None of the games you list are PvX, which is its own genre.

    Right, I guess what I am saying is the PvX genre, to the degree that it mixes PvE and PvP zones, tends to be more toxic and less enjoyable. I think as a game design philosophy/model it's just not as good as the design of the games I listed. And I think it tends to have reduced longevity and player satisfaction.

    PvX is key to AoC. If you don't like PvX, you will not like this game.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • CawwCaww Member
    I hope they develop a system that is unique and fun to draw in PvE types to a new experience, PvX. Being similar to other games dilutes their own potential.
  • People worried about server swap for silly PvP reasons and I'm over here wondering how much that could wreck an economy like what is planned for in AoC ..

    Not only the economy, but also your reputation. I think the developers also mentioned that you wouldn't be able to name change your character. Therefore, if you are perceived as a jerk on the server, you can't just pay $10 and change your name. As they are trying to build a community your actions will have consequences. Whether it is spying, or griefing, or anything else.
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