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Trade agreements and node cultures.

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited January 2022 in General Discussion
Something new I learned today is that trade agreements between nodes are affected by the culture/race of those nodes. It's not only node type and buildings and biome and such.

Go to around 43:17 of this video:
https://youtu.be/QRETPXuUEJs?t=2597
.. and the abilities and accessibilities of the citizens within those nodes, to certain items and/or crafting materials, or crafting times or blueprints that you might have, or available quests or rewards, all of those get influenced by the types of trade agreements that you have, the culture of the other node that you have the trade agreement with,...

As far as we currently know, once a node reaches Metropolis the node culture is locked into place. In a sense the same is true for all lvl 5 vassal nodes under the Metropolis, and so forth down the vassal chain, until the Metropolis or parent node is destroyed.

The upside to this static system is that trade agreement are more stable. You know what you are getting in the future, and only a successful node siege can change that, assuming both mayors want to keep the trade agreement. The downside is also that it is static and a bit boring, and I believe less healthy for the longevity of the game.

Personally I would like to see dynamic changes to the culture/race of a node, coinciding with the monthly mayoral changes. Just like when a node levels up, I would like to see the node culture change depending on which race has provided the most XP during that month.

The upside to this is a much more dynamic and living world, and one where the racial composition of one node suddenly becomes a point of concern for other nodes, creating more tension points and options for node politics, which I think is a good thing. It opens up for new benefits, instead of everything being so locked in place.

One issue that needs to be solved is in-node player housing. I think the system right now is that the architecture of the player houses change with the node culture when it levels up, without the players having a direct say in the matter. I don't like that system. I think at each stage of advancement, the players should get to choose to stick with the old style, or change to whatever new style the node changes to. I care much less about the overall aesthetic of a node than I do about player choice and agency in this matter.

In the same vein, if Intrepid implements dynamically changing node architecture and culture every month, I think players should be able to keep their current architectural style of in-node housing, or change to the new one as they see fit.

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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 2022
    You read too much into "the culture of the other node".
    Way too much. The racial appearance of the node has nothing to do with what you claimed.

    What he meant by "culture" was, what raw materials the citizens of the node peddle, since not all materials can be found in every area of the world map.

    The culture is simply the markets of the node.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You read too much into "the culture of the other node".
    Way too much. The racial appearance of the node has nothing to do with what you claimed.

    What he meant by "culture" was, what raw materials the citizens of the node peddle, since not all materials can be found in every area of the world map.

    The culture is simply the markets of the node.

    Source?
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Reason
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    That's not a source :wink:
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    I on the other hand DO have a source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_layout_and_style
    Race that contributed the highest percentage to the node's advancement will alter the racial appearance of its buildings and NPCs.[7][3][2][4][8][9]
    Parent races do not combine their cultural influences. For example, Py'Rai and Empyrean count as different cultures. Their parent race, the Pyrian, no longer exists.[10]
    This style and culture change happens at every stage.[2]
    This applies to all nodes, including castle nodes.[11]

    Or if you prefer it straight from Intrepid: https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-03-26-know-your-nodes-advance-and-destroy
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    I'm with @George_Black on this, I was not aware of anything other than visuals being impacted by the majority race with regards to node politics. I'm not sure why trade agreements would be changed with 'culture'. I think the burden of proof here is on you with regards to what practically changes with 'culture' other than visuals. I am unaware of any quotes or references that support your cause here. The only thing I can think of is different quests available to players of the majority race or something? But nothing that would impact node politics.

    Also, a lot of these ideas seem good only from a civ game perspective. Like how the hell does a single player in an mmo (that's not alt-friendly) impact the racial makeup of the node? It's not possible therefore making it a mechanic is a waste of time and resources. These things are a bit too meta and node mayors will still be mmo players and should not suddenly start playing a civ game full time.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    neuroguy wrote: »
    I'm not sure why trade agreements would be changed with 'culture'. I think the burden of proof here is on you with regards to what practically changes with 'culture' other than visuals.

    I literally just proved it with quotes and references. :D

    Straight from Steven's mouth in that video, and from his article on nodes that I also linked. The terminology match in both the video and the node article. There is really no room for misinterpretation there.
    neuroguy wrote: »
    Also, a lot of these ideas seem good only from a civ game perspective. Like how the hell does a single player in an mmo (that's not alt-friendly) impact the racial makeup of the node? It's not possible therefore making it a mechanic is a waste of time and resources. These things are a bit too meta and node mayors will still be mmo players and should not suddenly start playing a civ game full time.

    A single players impact isn't huge no. The node style and culture for a given stage is based on ALL players that contributed XP to the node. If you want that system to change, start lobbying for that I guess.

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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Do we know which cultures feel positive or negative towards specific other cultures?

    I would guess that the two dwarf races favor each other, as do the other pairs of races. Are all hostile to the Tulnar? Is anyone favorably inclined towards the orcs?

    Next, what do you speculate would be the impact on trade routes, were this to prove true? Would routes between favorably inclined cultures simply be more profitable, or might there be other perks?
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    Nerror wrote: »
    I literally just proved it with quotes and references. :D

    Straight from Steven's mouth in that video, and from his article on nodes that I also linked. The terminology match in both the video and the node article. There is really no room for misinterpretation there.
    The quote just says the culture changes, it gives zero information about the consequence of the culture changing, how is that point not clear? That quote says what I did: only the appearance will change. The video which I hadn't watched since you made it sound like they were identical (read your commend and tell me it doesn't sound like those two sources were redundant), does indeed say the culture impacts the trade agreement. For the record, I assume this will practically just mean there are race specific base/low lvl resources that can be bought in that node and trade agreements can allow those resources to also be sold in the node with the agreement.
    Nerror wrote: »
    A single players impact isn't huge no. The node style and culture for a given stage is based on ALL players that contributed XP to the node. If you want that system to change, start lobbying for that I guess.

    ? What? I am saying the system is already good, what YOU are proposing is to change the race that determines architecture and culture by XP. I'm trying to say this is entirely a passive system that no individual can control. Having the racial culture change removes the need for further trade agreements and politics with other nodes (which is much more active and can actually be engaged by players to pursue a desired outcome).
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    neuroguy wrote: »
    ? What? I am saying the system is already good, what YOU are proposing is to change the race that determines architecture and culture by XP.

    The current system is also an XP based system. The difference between the current system and the one I proposed is that under the current system the node changes race/culture only when the node advances a level, based on which race provided the most XP to the node. Meaning a kaelar metropolis will never change even if all the old citizens leave and only dünir join. My proposal is to make that a monthly check instead and change it based on whichever race provided the most XP to the node during that month.

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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    tautau wrote: »
    Do we know which cultures feel positive or negative towards specific other cultures?

    I would guess that the two dwarf races favor each other, as do the other pairs of races. Are all hostile to the Tulnar? Is anyone favorably inclined towards the orcs?

    Next, what do you speculate would be the impact on trade routes, were this to prove true? Would routes between favorably inclined cultures simply be more profitable, or might there be other perks?

    All good questions!

    As for speculation on the impact a culture has on a trade route, my initial thought was along the lines of available quests and/or crafting blueprints. It could also be resources, but I think that is less likely to be culturally based and more likely to be based on the biome the node is in.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I think people are over-thinking what trade agreements do.
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    JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Cultural influences bring more than just the aesthetic and storyline changes - benefits are granted to the dominant culture within that node's Zone of influence.[15][4]

    These benefits apply to citizens of the dominant culture but they also apply to mechanics of the node and can also be of benefit to members of other races.[15]
    There is an attrition mechanic that affects experience and influence to curb a single race from dominating the entire world.[16]
    There is an attrition and that attrition on experience and influence is heightened based on the performance of the race in the world. So if all these nodes are Orc nodes then their attrition rate is very high to compete with the cultural establishment of new nodes because they have more influence in the world and a popular opinion is against them in their outlying regions that they do not have influence in.[16] – Steven Sharif

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    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    That attrition thing is interesting I think. :smile:
    Noaani wrote: »
    I think people are over-thinking what trade agreements do.

    I can't speak for other people obviously, but personally I am just going by the words of Steven and Jeff :wink: They seem to have a good handle on what trade agreements do...
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