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Dev Discussion #39 - Griefing

VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
edited January 14 in General Discussion
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Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

Dev Discussion - Griefing
What do you consider acceptable behavior in an MMO or PvP-based situation, and where do you draw the line at “griefing”?

Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding RNG!
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Comments

  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 14
    When someone repeated attacks/kills someone else and has no benefit for the attacker. Basically, if they are only doing it to waste someones time.

    On the other side, I kind of want to consider stuff like karma bombing griefing. If someone attacks you at a spawn/resource node, you don't fight back, and get killed. If you return to the spot to continue to take more resources that your attacker is trying to farm, trying to increase their punishment, i think that can also be considered griefing.
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 14
    I love these types of discussions because the line is different for everyone. But there is some common ground on what is obvious griefing.

    For me at least, it's any action (not just PVP) that is done with the sole intent to annoy, and harass a player, for little to no gain for the offender other than their enjoyment in upsetting the other person. If a person is attacking a player over and over, knowing full well they don't have loot to drop, and knowing full well that person is not going to fight back, they are doing it JUST to harass and annoy the other player.

    Meaningful PVP doesn't just mean consent from both parties, it also means it has a purpose within the game world, whether that be securing an objective (world boss), gaining supplies, stopping your opponent's progress (trade run ambushes), and having open war between guilds.

    Anytime a person takes actions that are motivated only out of a desire to piss off or harass another player, that's griefing, regardless of if they do it one time, or 100 times. I'm not saying you "shouldn't kill people just for fun" what I'm saying is your intent is key. PVPing for the sake of meaningful PVP, such as for fun or enjoyment is 100% all good. But if you are doing it "for the luls" and in hopes the other person "uninstalls the game", then you stepped into "Over that Line".
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  • StretchStretch Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It depends on the type of griefing. If its a player camping a quest or trade route to get some easy kills/loot, I think that is OK as its a player problem with a player solution being to kill the person doing it / rallying people to help you out. However sometimes there are griefing issues that requires CM/GM intervention.
    2 Examples I can think of are:
    In Alpha 1, there were people killing other players during a loading screen when they teleported to the other islands. So the player would just load in dead. This is using a non-mechanic (the loading screen) to grief players. I think Lt.Toast ended up sorting that in the end and this wouldn't be a problem during release as there wouldn't be loading screens if you are sailing between continents.

    Another example I can think of is in Archeage. A background to their mechanics for anyone who hasn't played are: You craft a trade pack in one zone and you deliver it to another zone for gold. How much gold you get depends on the pack you craft + the demand for that pack. The demand for the pack is based on how many other players are delivering that pack. There is a bit more too it but for this example that is the quick version of it.
    So I remember players were blocking the only road that lead into the city where you deliver the pack so no one could use it to bring their packs in. Which caused the demand to go up. This would be fine itself as the solution would be to destroy the blockade however it was in a peace zone so you couldn't break the blockade. This is an example of where 2 in game mechanics (supply/demand of tradepacks & peace zones) don’t compliment each other and would require GM intervention to destroy the blockade.

    My summary is: in-game griefing is OK as long as player problems have player solutions.

    The next point to talk about is: Griefing / Harassment in chat.
    I’m sure most (if not all) of the people reading this has experienced some form of harassment. It varies from game to game and usually is a lot worse if you are female but regardless, if you’ve ganked people in Gw2’s WvW or flanked some enemies in Planetside 2 or just straight up played WoW’s arenas, I’m sure you’ve received chat harassment. At the end of the day it’s a good rule of thumb to just laugh, screencap it to share with friends and block/report the player doing it, however it doesn’t really help foster a quality non-toxic community If the player in question isn’t punished.

    I loved League of Legend's Tribunal system and think a similar system should be implemented.
    So players who are in good standing could sign up and review cases of reported chat harassment. It would show relevant logs so there can be clear context given and then they would have the option to either Punish, Pardon or Skip. X-amount of players would vote and if the majority say “Punish” then the case would be forwarded to a GM to be reviewed and the GM would have the final say on what ends up happening. I think this would help filter out proper reports vs reporting for disliking someone or people trying to dodge the chat filters by misspelling hate terms, racial slurs, overall toxic behavior vs “this player killed me so my guild will report him” etc.

    I don’t think there should be compensation in game for being apart of it. Maybe a forum badge or statistics like “Players Punished” (if you guessed right) and “Longest Tribunal Streak” which would be how many punish, pardon, skip cases you chose correctly in a row etc.
  • BotBot Member
    Personally I think as long as you have an actual objective, everything is fair game. You want a grinding spot and decide to spawn camp someone until they leave? That's fair game. If you're doing something purely to annoy someone, that's griefing and has no place. I'd also draw the line personally at constantly killing someone who clearly can't fight back and doesn't want to fight back. Such as a max level player spawn camping a low level player. It does nothing for everyone and is just overall being a bad sport.
  • mfloyd0232mfloyd0232 Member
    edited January 13
    Griefing? Definitely abusing bugs or game mechanics in unintended ways just to foil other players, no or little gain to the griefers.

    As a mostly casual PvE player, feels bad to get repeatedly killed by much more powerful players while doing low-impact (i.e. grindy activities that aren't gated or contested) activities. I know that's part of the excitement of full pvp games. But when I only ay 6-8 hours a week and someone can cause 1-2 of those hours to be wasted by killing me in passing, that is the thing that makes me want to give up.
  • TulvirTulvir Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think there's some pretty solid points here, the main thing I'd like to just reiterate is- at least in my opinion- when you're dealing with griefing it's not, "Aw I was out farming and got killed". It's "X deaths? Ok well there's no point in me trying to do some kind of content because I don't have anyone else to stop this guy from killing me and I can't do it on my own." My current understanding of how the corruption would work seems like an excellent resource for stopping this, but I am certain this line of thinking is what most people are worried about.

    I also think it can be useful to encourage the community to respond as well. Now perhaps this should be more of a ground up solution, but I heard the idea where- particularly in chat, people would just type "stop" with no further engagement.

    Last note I sort of want to play devil's advocate. Taunting can be one of the most engaging things in a game, especially if it's baked in, in some way. Now, I certainly don't think this example is... relevant, but if anyone remembers the game Battleborn when you killed someone you could press a button and play an animation they'd also see as a taunt. This was genuinely one of my favorite things. It was comedic, infuriating, satisfying, and I suppose due to the light hearted nature, never felt annoying. This sort of "playful banter" I think is great because it can motivate people to try harder while also not really plaguing a community. Another example is the emotes from Dark Souls- though admittedly I know less about the community's feelings I think they can enhance the experience. Perhaps there's ways to turn what otherwise would be toxic behavior into something enjoyed by the community? Give the trolls something they can get kicks out of while everyone else doesn't get upset with, because it's not that bad. I have no idea if that could work, but maybe someone gets a good idea from it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 13
    Typically, the only thing that griefs me in MMORPGs is being forced into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP. That occurs when I'm on PvP-optional servers and have spent about an hour defending a city... leave the city for an out of the way, secluded, farming spot while I wait for the PvP flag to cool down - but I'm jumped by some asshat.
    Which means I'm in a no win situation, where even if I win the battle, I'm still stuck with the PvP flag being restarted.

    Other than that... I can ignore whatever other players try to do to cause grief.

    (Also, that really depends on how debilitating the death penalties are and whether corpse camping is possible. If I can just let them kill me and basically go back to being left alone within 5 minutes, I'm happy to just be killed.)
  • I don't really see griefing as strictly pvp related as far as combat is concern. If someone is attacking you within the rule sets of the game and you have ways to avoid it or them you should be fine. (ie There should be ways to avoid a situation and a certain amount of effort having to be put in to hunt you down.).

    I view griefing as more taking advantage of exploits in a system in order to cause issues to players and avoid penalties.

    1. Feeding people to mobs so they die without you getting corrupting (Can easily be countered if you do a certain amount of large damage to them, even if they die to mobs it still counts as them killing you.)
    2. Killing inside towns (towns should be a safe spot.)
    3. Running in and out of town to flag and attack someone and have protection when they enter. (Maybe have the safe zone extended out so they cant run back and forth between town safe zones. With it being extended them will have to do more than a few steps before they are back in the safe zone.)
    4. Going to a low level area where people are just starting the game and carelessly pvping everyone so they can't play the game. (Though with the corruption system if you build up high corruption form killing low level players I don't see that as much of a issue since people will want to kill them for gear. But they could use alt gear they don't care about losing).
    5. Group of people having no desire to pvp and just want to annoying you and killing all the mobs around you while they follow you as much as possible. (This is more so a group of people targeting and harrasing one person, not really 2 groups trying to complete for mob drops and gear.)
  • Stretch wrote: »
    It depends on the type of griefing. If its a player camping a quest or trade route to get some easy kills/loot, I think that is OK as its a player problem with a player solution being to kill the person doing it / rallying people to help you out. However sometimes there are griefing issues that requires CM/GM intervention.
    2 Examples I can think of are:
    In Alpha 1, there were people killing other players during a loading screen when they teleported to the other islands. So the player would just load in dead. This is using a non-mechanic (the loading screen) to grief players. I think Lt.Toast ended up sorting that in the end and this wouldn't be a problem during release as there wouldn't be loading screens if you are sailing between continents.

    Another example I can think of is in Archeage. A background to their mechanics for anyone who hasn't played are: You craft a trade pack in one zone and you deliver it to another zone for gold. How much gold you get depends on the pack you craft + the demand for that pack. The demand for the pack is based on how many other players are delivering that pack. There is a bit more too it but for this example that is the quick version of it.
    So I remember players were blocking the only road that lead into the city where you deliver the pack so no one could use it to bring their packs in. Which caused the demand to go up. This would be fine itself as the solution would be to destroy the blockade however it was in a peace zone so you couldn't break the blockade. This is an example of where 2 in game mechanics (supply/demand of tradepacks & peace zones) don’t compliment each other and would require GM intervention to destroy the blockade.

    My summary is: in-game griefing is OK as long as player problems have player solutions.

    The next point to talk about is: Griefing / Harassment in chat.
    I’m sure most (if not all) of the people reading this has experienced some form of harassment. It varies from game to game and usually is a lot worse if you are female but regardless, if you’ve ganked people in Gw2’s WvW or flanked some enemies in Planetside 2 or just straight up played WoW’s arenas, I’m sure you’ve received chat harassment. At the end of the day it’s a good rule of thumb to just laugh, screencap it to share with friends and block/report the player doing it, however it doesn’t really help foster a quality non-toxic community If the player in question isn’t punished.

    I loved League of Legend's Tribunal system and think a similar system should be implemented.
    So players who are in good standing could sign up and review cases of reported chat harassment. It would show relevant logs so there can be clear context given and then they would have the option to either Punish, Pardon or Skip. X-amount of players would vote and if the majority say “Punish” then the case would be forwarded to a GM to be reviewed and the GM would have the final say on what ends up happening. I think this would help filter out proper reports vs reporting for disliking someone or people trying to dodge the chat filters by misspelling hate terms, racial slurs, overall toxic behavior vs “this player killed me so my guild will report him” etc.

    I don’t think there should be compensation in game for being apart of it. Maybe a forum badge or statistics like “Players Punished” (if you guessed right) and “Longest Tribunal Streak” which would be how many punish, pardon, skip cases you chose correctly in a row etc.

    Sorry I don't agree with this and think its a stupid idea. Human review is important but any system like Dota or league with systems that give players bad standing is just really stupid in a mmo. We all already saw that with new world, those systems do not work. You need to be an adult when you are playing a mmo and be mindful of the people you play with rather than askign for police on a mmo or automatic ban system.

    YOU need to put the effort into getting to know your community and make friends that you enjoy playing with. If you are getting pvp'd in a pvp game that is not worth reporting unless they are abusing a bug or huge exploit. If you are being targeted by a entire guild for no reason and can not escape from them no matter what than you can contact a gm. Too many people do things piss off people and don't realize consequences happen which can revolve around pvp.
  • Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.
  • DarknezzzDarknezzz Member
    edited January 13
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    I agree 100% needs to have a good balance of pvp, not where everyone is attacking senselessly every second, but not where you don't see any pvp outside of guild decs and wars.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Kind of a loaded question as non-consentional pvp where the victim was not taunting or stealing your mobs or anything wrong would be griefing. But this would also cover most of open world pvp. As consentional pvp usually happens in arenas, bgs, duals, gvg, sieges, basically anything except random open world pvp.
  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member
    edited January 13
    If Dev Discussion #38 was Holidays, then this thread should be Dev Discussion #39 shouldn't it? Yes, I am available for Alpha 1 testing. I am surprised Noaani didn't beat me to this post.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.

    They have literarily said the game isn't for everyone. It is a pvp game, yes someone can camp you but if thy are doing that like 7 times there are major consequences and active in game bounty hunters.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.

    They have literarily said the game isn't for everyone. It is a pvp game, yes someone can camp you but if thy are doing that like 7 times there are major consequences and active in game bounty hunters.

    Just don't fight back poof they are red
  • And another complete unpopular opinion: I dont think u should get red in your first kill in someone with the same level as u. I guess u should kill some players around your level to be corrupted. obviously this should not apply when u kill a low level.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 13
    It's not griefing to me, no matter the intent of the other player, if it's intended gameplay from the developers. Even repetitively killing an enemy newbie in a guild war is not griefing, for example, if the devs are ok with it. The key word here is "intended" though. Sometimes game systems aren't completely thought through, and actions that aren't exploits or cheats can still be bad for the game and toxic in nature. It's up to the developers to address that asap and make a statement telling players not to do it, and of course patch it.

    Any exploitation of bugs should be harshly punished and can be considered griefing in some cases, or just cheating in others.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.

    Automated systems don't work, so unless you want a GM to read through 20,000 petitions, it's hard to say who is or isn't innocent. If someone is harassing you in chat, that what ignore is for. World of Warcraft had a report system for chat that would silence the person and it got abused all the time. Didn't work as intended.
  • I would say that griefing is not simply killing a player who simply doesn't want to PVP. It would also be griefing if you stole a resource of mine. Now to clarify, each game had its own etiquette. In World of Warcraft, if I was mining a node, all the ore in the node was mine. It was deemed rude if you mined at the same time as me. Now, after it respawned, that was fine, but if the node had 3 ore and you took 1 ore so I only got 2 ore that could be viewed as griefing.

    In Everquest, it could be a challenge to get experience for your character and finding monsters appropriate for your level so groups would camp areas waiting for the mobs to respawn. If a group claimed an area as "camped" for those who remember that term, killing a mob was deemed rude and could get you killed by the group.

    Griefing is a matter of perspective. I can see killing a player half your level as griefing. I could also argue that on a PVP server, before Blizzard got rid of them, that killing Horde players was my patriot duty as an Alliance member. In Eve Online there was safe space and no law space. You could say in safe space and play the game never having to PVP and Corcord would come destroy the person who attacked you. If you chose to go to the lawless space, you made that choice. They incentivized players to go to those regions and fight over resources because the best materials were in that area of the game. AOC could also do that by putting high end materials in certain regions of the game and common materials in other regions.
  • I consider griefing to be killing lower level players or farming kills (harassment) of one player until they're forced to log out.

    ( I'm not talking about a crafter trying to get mats in a highly contested area dying all the time when they could go elsewhere, I'm talking about one specific character chasing another for hours on end and killing them making it impossible for the farmed player to play.)

    I think open world pvp 100% has to exist not only for economic reasons but also for that edge of your seat feeling... making the world feel a little dangerous. Knowing that what you're doing could result in you losing it. Making your heart beat a little faster when you're in the dark woods felling a tree and keeping you more alert to the surroundings.

    I think it's acceptable if I'm on a ore node and someone kills me to gather it. Same with if I'm fighting bosses and another party wants it and it decends into a brawl. I think it's acceptable for players to take advantage of a natural choke point to ambush caravans trying to trade. Those are just natural pvp flashpoints.

    I'm fine with all forms of pvp as long as I had a chance (not killed by someone levels higher than me) and as long as I'm not getting chased by one guy for hours and killed.

    If I walk into a caravan ambush and die then it's on me for not scouting the route ahead. Or planning ahead by hiring guards.

    If I'm killed while questing or gathering then I need to not be so preoccupied or kill possible contesting players first.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    And another complete unpopular opinion: I dont think u should get red in your first kill in someone with the same level as u. I guess u should kill some players around your level to be corrupted. obviously this should not apply when u kill a low level.

    i 9001% AGREE WITH THIS.
  • Boanergese wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.

    Automated systems don't work, so unless you want a GM to read through 20,000 petitions, it's hard to say who is or isn't innocent. If someone is harassing you in chat, that what ignore is for. World of Warcraft had a report system for chat that would silence the person and it got abused all the time. Didn't work as intended.

    That is why my post is against automatic reports banning people and putting people in the bad category automatically. Reports are important for the right reasons though.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    My answer depends on the context of the game. In AoC, the vast majority of the game environment is pvx. I think there's a contract formed when you create a character that this is the world you're asserting yourself into, and thus take on the knowledge that you are fair game.

    So, in that context 'griefing' seems like the repeated killing of 'innocents' (greens) where they are not posing a threat to your objectives. Killing other gatherers in an area with necessary material for your crafting / guild objectives is totally understandable.

    Standing over a level 10 green as a level 50 group and repeatedly kill the green. Griefing.
    Repeatedly following that green and killing him as he's trying to escape. Griefing.
    Following that green into town and bragging about killing him in chat. Griefing.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • ignitarignitar Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Griefing is just too broad of a term. Is taking someone's ore node or killing them over and over griefing? Depends on who you ask, but I think not.

    ArcheAge - cart blocking trade routes became a thing, and while some hated it others found it extremely enjoyable. Easily patched if they felt the need.
    WoW - people dispelling world buffs, again easily patched if they wanted.
    WoW - people entering your raid instance in order to prevent you from entering yourselves. Definitely griefing.
    Also scammers, are they griefing? Is someone who slanders you over text to others griefing?


    Really it just comes down to what the developers allow. Spawn camping lowbies? This can be addressed with game design, or rules that a GM must then use valuable time on to enforce. If you want to sit on a trade route line with a whole guild camping and controlling the area some may see that was griefing, others as content. There is a fine line between griefing and emergent play and I urge caution when branding something to be griefing.
  • ElwendryllElwendryll Member
    edited January 14
    So, first, what's the definition of griefing? To me, it's any action that is intended to prevent someone from enjoying the game.

    Many actions will elicit negative emotions for the recipient/victim, it's a pvp game after all. I think the important factor is the effort vs reward.

    Examples I consider okay :
    • Two people have a history and "dislike" each other (it can just be a RP rivalry without actual hard feelings), they attempt to kill each other whenever they meet in open-world, even if there is no loot, and then they resume whatever they were doing. The reward is satisfaction, and entertaining the "rivalry", it benefits the RP.
    • You are attempting to go to a specific, very valuable farming spot, but someone is already there, they kill you whenever you try to contest the spot. You give up after a couple deaths, they keep farming uncontested, for now.

    Examples I consider NOT okay:
    • Someone offended you a while ago, you kill them on sight, and you figure out their respawn location, you kill them repeatedly everytime they try to get out, they eventually log off, you spent 20 minutes doing that, and didn't get any meaningful reward for it, but it was worth it, right? That'll teach them.
    • That guy is still on the same farming spot, you have no chance to beat them, you know it, but you keep going back again and again, you welcome the exp debt, because you know they're increasing their corruption. They eventually just go away, leaving you the spot, you're actually worse off than when you started, but it was worth it, right?

    I think a key aspect of griefing is that it's often a lose/lose situation, one person will go out of their way to "hurt" someone, wasting their own time to make sure someone isn't having fun. If something is unfair, making the experience bad for someone, I don't think we can call it griefing if there is a clear benefit for the perpetrator. To be called griefing and be considered "unacceptable", an action's main purpose must be "harming" someone else, and/or it must imply a significant effort for no meaningful "reward". Griefing is targeted at the player and not the character they play, it's the human being that you're trying to harm.

  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Hmmm. I should add, thinking about what @Elwendryll articulated, that griefing excludes any action taken against a red toon.

    Kill them repeatedly and relentlessly on sight to your heart’s content.

    This is the way.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • MaouiiMaouii Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 14
    players are toxic.
    they confuse pvp with nuisance.
    corruption will not solve the problem.
    the pvp player is a frustrated fool in his life who gets his pleasure by preventing others from progressing.
    he only likes the unequal fight.
    the only solution is the tag that we would be free to activate or not during the leveling period, and that would automatically activate at the maximum level
  • OzijakOzijak Member
    edited January 14
    I spend my RL life living as an upstanding citizen. But in games, I like to unleash my frustrations from the retail world hahaha & am gank happy. I am all for ganking and glad there is a mechanic for it in the game and the griefing nature of ganking, being camped repeatedly, I feel the corruption system will deal with quite well.

    There are other ways to grief too, not just killing people. Imo, it is when any system is abused and taken too far to prevent or severely hamper someone from enjoying and playing the game, their way. Some examples I can forsee in Ashes:
    1. Repeatedly targeting the same people in freehold/node/caravan raids, taking a percentage of their gathered or refined materials, eventually leaving them with very very little and wasting hours of their time to point they no longer want to play. Perhaps you can put on quickly rising diminishing returns on this if you keep doing it to the same player/group.
    2. Bodyblocking, if groups get together they could prevent people from getting past areas, particularly in open world dungeons etc. A solution to this New World did well was putting away your weapon let you phase through people.

    I feel there are likely going to be numerous ways to grief we haven't seen or thought of yet in Ashes as its still in development, and the best way to manage it is active GMs. This was mentioned as a goal in an early interview I watched and I really hope is still the goal. Perhaps even recruit them from the player base, set strict rules and harshly punish anyone who exploits their powers and reward them for helping others and help making the game a better place.

    Then if the issue is bigger then what a GM can handle they can pass it up the chain and it can be hotfixed or addressed in the next patch depending on the urgency.

    One thing I am concerned about griefing the game and its players are people using exploits to get economic/item advantages. New World was ruined by this and I really hope the back end system lets the Ashes team track things very easily, if someone suddenly gets a lot of gold it gets flagged to look at, item duplications, there are so many.

    I think active GMs with alerts from out of the ordinary gameplay patterns, as well as people creating tickets for help.
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