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Dev Discussion #39 - Griefing

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Comments

  • I think it's a case of playing the game how you want to play vs playing how it's made. If a game has a PVE story, then there will be players who just want to do that and not want/have to PVP. Being able to disable PVP, much like being able to ignore a player, would likely stop most types of grief. Then it's often just down to hoarding resources (which includes mobs). Even hoarding can be reduced by increasing spawn rates with specific rules (such as depending on the number of players nearby or depending on the speed of resource collection/destruction) or allowing multi-tapping of a resource. It all depends on what experience the design is aiming at.
    I personally leave PVP off in games given the option because I don't have the time to acquire the skills or gear to give me a fighting chance, though it's not too bad if I am left alone if I run away but still, if i can't play the PVE aspect of a game, I don't play that game.
  • This is a really important issue. Casual and crafting based players loosing materials to undesired and uninitiated PVP results in one thing alone, they quit the game and it becomes an Archage Style Griefing Fest that only Griefers want to play (really bad for your system design and business model).

    How about this, in Beta run a server that works as you intend, and another one with a `you have to flag for PVP' in order to be able to be attacked and see which one is more popular.

    Forced PVP and rewards for this kind of activity really concerns me. This and the Need/Greed loot system are archaic mistakes of the past from an MMO perspective and I honestly thought devs and system designers had learned those lessons.
  • VelRathis wrote: »
    This is a really important issue. Casual and crafting based players loosing materials to undesired and uninitiated PVP results in one thing alone, they quit the game and it becomes an Archage Style Griefing Fest that only Griefers want to play (really bad for your system design and business model).

    How about this, in Beta run a server that works as you intend, and another one with a `you have to flag for PVP' in order to be able to be attacked and see which one is more popular.

    Forced PVP and rewards for this kind of activity really concerns me. This and the Need/Greed loot system are archaic mistakes of the past from an MMO perspective and I honestly thought devs and system designers had learned those lessons.

    This shows a serious lack of faith in the corruption system. The problem with your suggestion is Steven has said he wants the areas in game to be very open and very much contestable.

    If you don’t fight back the attacker has to consider if they really want to flag as corrupt. (The death penalties being I believe 4x bigger for corrupt)
  • DeadlyDaveDeadlyDave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Come on it's pretty funny to one shot a newbie, but lets be fair constant griefing players is a waste of time.

    The only progression is the satisfaction of the griefer knowing he's making the other players life a misery.

    This should not be tolerated, as long as you give the players the necessary tools, im sure the community should be able to police this aspect. Word travels fast
    Griefers should have a bounty on their heads, drop their weapon on death, not allowed to trade with players or NPC's, loss xp ....etc
    I tell you what i know about Dwarf's.
    Very little
  • Griefing is an essential part of Wpvp. Spawn camping may initially seem like griefing, but spawn camping seems more like a design flaw then something to blame players for. If there are no guards in an area and its easier to camp lower level players, then the devs should have designed that zone better. If the player who is lower level continually goes into the same dangerous area to get "griefed" then its that players fault. You dont run into the middle of traffic and expect to be totally fine. World pvp is only fun if there are unique encounters each time you play. Thats the reason that Battle Royales are so popular now. Each encounter with other players is slightly different. You need to be able to fight in almost any open world situation if you want to create a real Wpvp MMORPG. However, if you let there be complete freedom on where to grief outside of cities, then youll run into the same problems wow has. You need to be able to balance fun combat that happens organically within the world with rules and challenges that make it rewarding for those participating. It should be a little scary going out into the world. OG Runescape is a great example of a good ideology for Wpvp. There are specific areas with better rewards that are open to pvp. This places are dangerous to traverse and can potentially lead to you losing items. But theres reward to the risk. WPVP is a really a really hard line to manage. You need to create a world that welcomes wpvp, offers fair rewards for pvp, has consequences for those who aggressively pvp in a way that prevents other players from progression without taking away from the pvpers experience completely, and you also need to make pvp rewards enticing enough to make average players excited to get involved. I would really emphasize focusing on combining aspects of new worlds pvp system and runescape if you want to succeed.
  • DraksDraks Member, Alpha Two
    One way I can see people griefing with easily is attacking a non combatant player who is already fighting a mob, without killing the player.

    This can be done without any consequences because you don't become corrupted doing that as of now.
  • ptitoineptitoine Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Draks wrote: »
    One way I can see people griefing with easily is attacking a non combatant player who is already fighting a mob, without killing the player.

    This can be done without any consequences because you don't become corrupted doing that as of now.

    Yah it was my exemple as flaw for the corruption system. And also one of my worries for how people may abuse it
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We'll have to see if it's possible to abuse the Corruption system like that.
    The devs are experienced MMORPG players and devs, so I expect that to already be covered in the design.

    In Ashes, spawn-camping is considered griefing, and the devs have mechanics designed to prevent that - in addition to Corruption.
  • ptitoineptitoine Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    We'll have to see if it's possible to abuse the Corruption system like that.
    The devs are experienced MMORPG players and devs, so I expect that to already be covered in the design.

    In Ashes, spawn-camping is considered griefing, and the devs have mechanics designed to prevent that - in addition to Corruption.

    Yeah but like in any law there is ways to counter it.

    Like you camp people but not finish them you lets monster do it. You aint killing them so you dont get corruption and could potentionnally not be considered griefing cause you didnt kill the player. And on paper they could say its not griefing cause a mob killed me and not a player.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2022
    We all understand the concept.
    That doesn't mean the actual design or implementation will truly allow people to do that.
    The devs understand that concept already, also.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    We all understand the concept.
    That doesn't mean the actual design or implementation will truly allow people to do that.
    The devs understand that concept already, also.

    Literally everying that involves gaining corruption mentions nothing else but kills. So unless they have a different system to deal with the just attacking problem in play, you can’t say on good authority it won’t be an issue yet.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think I remember Steven saying in a live stream one time that that's part of why you won't be able to see other players health percentages or exact health bar values.

    So that for people that want to play that game of trying to hurt a player and hoping he dies to mobs, the attacker will be in a risk vs reward situation of potentially accidentally landing a kill shot themself, or conversely it working out for the attacker as planned.

    Somewhat confident that I remember him saying that, and referencing this situation specifically. But there's no way I'm going to try to find it. Could be wrong too though.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2022
    Biccus wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    We all understand the concept.
    That doesn't mean the actual design or implementation will truly allow people to do that.
    The devs understand that concept already, also.

    Literally everying that involves gaining corruption mentions nothing else but kills. So unless they have a different system to deal with the just attacking problem in play, you can’t say on good authority it won’t be an issue yet.
    Which is why I didn't state it won't be an issue.
    I stated that just because you can imagine a scenario, it doesn't mean that scenario will be possible during actual gameplay. And I included a reminder that the devs are already aware of that loophole - as is everyone else here in these forums.
  • Griefing bad mmmkay ❤️
  • OrdinAeryOrdinAery Member, Alpha Two
    I do not know exactly how the teams will be set up in arenas vs battle grounds vs sieges, but were there already discussions of allied griefing? Your ally going AFK, avoiding the objective, or intentionally feeding the enemy kills. Not to say that it needs to be policed, I just have not seen much mention of ally interactions yet. I might have missed it though, I admittedly only skimmed through the posts. Honestly, it might even be inherently dealt with depending on how each event works. If you enter into arenas in pre-made parties, you pick your teammates vs battle grounds are supposed to be random vs maybe it is an intended mechanic of sieges where something like buying off the enemy is a viable strategy.
  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    Just set the game to where you can't initiate combat against someone more than 10 levels above or below you. That fixes killing someone too low level. Then create a timer that wont let players attack someone they recently killed, until the timer wears off, that solves killing someone over and over.
  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    My above post would also encourage people to have alts they keep at different levels to enjoy PVP across different level ranges.
  • VelRathis wrote: »
    This is a really important issue. Casual and crafting based players loosing materials to undesired and uninitiated PVP results in one thing alone, they quit the game and it becomes an Archage Style Griefing Fest that only Griefers want to play (really bad for your system design and business model).

    How about this, in Beta run a server that works as you intend, and another one with a `you have to flag for PVP' in order to be able to be attacked and see which one is more popular.

    Forced PVP and rewards for this kind of activity really concerns me. This and the Need/Greed loot system are archaic mistakes of the past from an MMO perspective and I honestly thought devs and system designers had learned those lessons.

    Thats cute if you think Crafters and gatheres are always casual players... Try games like Albion or Eve or go watch about the Cartels um this games where guilds of crafters Control the game
  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    edited July 2022
    Y
    Draks wrote: »
    One way I can see people griefing with easily is attacking a non combatant player who is already fighting a mob, without killing the player.

    This can be done without any consequences because you don't become corrupted doing that as of now.

    Give players a toggle to turn purple, letting others know they are fine with being attacked.
    Attacking a purple player has no penalty.
    Then set it up to add corruption to anyone that damages a non-combatant(green boys).
    If the non-combatant dies while not fighting back, they drop nothing. No loot from the green boys.
    Allow purples and reds to drop stuff but make reds drop more.
    Set it to where you cant attack someone more than 10 levels above or below you.
    I don't see how this system would cause many problems.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Ramirez wrote: »
    VelRathis wrote: »
    This is a really important issue. Casual and crafting based players loosing materials to undesired and uninitiated PVP results in one thing alone, they quit the game and it becomes an Archage Style Griefing Fest that only Griefers want to play (really bad for your system design and business model).

    How about this, in Beta run a server that works as you intend, and another one with a `you have to flag for PVP' in order to be able to be attacked and see which one is more popular.

    Forced PVP and rewards for this kind of activity really concerns me. This and the Need/Greed loot system are archaic mistakes of the past from an MMO perspective and I honestly thought devs and system designers had learned those lessons.

    Thats cute if you think Crafters and gatheres are always casual players... Try games like Albion or Eve or go watch about the Cartels um this games where guilds of crafters Control the game

    Those are the first guilds ill destroy, and have a big tax on them.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    griefing-1920.gif?h=250

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

    Dev Discussion - Griefing
    What do you consider acceptable behavior in an MMO or PvP-based situation, and where do you draw the line at “griefing”?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding RNG!


    UPDATE: Hi again friends! Thank you all for taking the time to stop by and share your thoughts on griefing! We had a blast reading through them all! Check out some of the top notes you shared with us below:

    • Many players felt that repeatedly killing people (ex. low level players, spawn camping) who are unable to fight back, or those who harass and ruin the experience of another player at little to no benefit of the harasser is griefing.
    • A large majority of players felt that griefing is abusing bugs, and exploiting within the game mechanics in unintended ways, tarnishing the experience of other players.
    • Some players felt that griefing is okay as long as the problems caused by players can be solved by players. If the griefing requires a Community Manager, or Customer Support Representative interaction, it’s likely disruptive and unacceptable griefing.
    • A few players provided examples of this:

      Feeding people to mobs so they die without you getting corrupted is griefing.

      “Karma Bombing” - For example, taking resources from your attacker to encourage them to attack you while you don’t fight back to increase their punishment.
    • Alternatively, there were many players who felt that in MMORPGS griefing can be nuanced to the etiquette of that particular MMO and community. Griefing is then determined by the community aside from anything unintended by the developers.

    While there was some fantastic feedback and discussion in this thread, I think this quote expertly shows us what... strict benevolence(?) looks like ^_^
    Nerror wrote: »
    Thou shall not PK thine enemy at spawn more than 3 times, or be banned

    ehh griefing is the carebear's excuse to not pvp ;D

    ok being serious, griefing probably exists when you grab a high level alt with nothing of value and perma pk lowbies. if you did it with u rmain, at least there would be a risk involved, but no risk on doing it with ur alt with nothing of value on.

    1- mob dropping is a strategy. if im fighting someone stronger, id run to him with a train of mobs then fake death next to him or wait for him to aoe pull, now the mobs are attacking him and im also attacking him. either the mobs or i will kill him. this is also a very effective way to kill bots without incurring corruption. hell this is even a strategy in games like LoL, where the better player will bait his opponent to hit him near his allied minions so that they hit him, or look for fights near them. so is that griefing then because im having the mobs help me kill my enemy?
    and i mean, lets be honest, if u see a dude running towards u with 20 dragons behind him, u could literally just run a bit till the mobs kill him or reset, or u could just stun/root him so the mobs kill him. if you die to mob dropping its literally ur fault.

    2- karma bombing what? i mean im not forcing u to go red...i hate gathering and crafting but some people love it, they do it over pvp. so how does a miner or a lumberjack (unless he has a chainsaw) has any chance of defeating a soldier with 10+ years of experience? its not happening. some people just wanna chop trees or mine iron and dont want to pvp. the pve hero has no chance of winning that fight, so why would he flag? as the pvper, if i wanna chop trees and someone is already taking the nodes, i can either find another spot or go red. thats not griefing at all
  • The ability to gank people will create rivalries and reputations. These are fun things for the players to engage in. Also, if someone tries to harvest the ore vein I'm on, I'd like to be able to defend my claim. Otherwise the game just feels sterile.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    Griefing doesn't exist in PVP if both parties can attack and counter.

    Nobody says they got griefed while playing Counter-Strike, in Counter-Strike if you die you are bad.

    But PVE griefing is a thing for many years in many games, because in many occasions there's no counters and no ways to stop the other guy.

    A lot of people got griefed in Minecraft.

    I worry that Intrepid Studios starts making one-sided systems being PVE or PVP and it's most likely that will end up being one-sided PVE systems since there's outcry among carebears.

    Because there's land management I wonder how PVX and PVP players will deal with a horde of green griefers, let's call them green horde.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Draks wrote: »
    One way I can see people griefing with easily is attacking a non combatant player who is already fighting a mob, without killing the player.

    This can be done without any consequences because you don't become corrupted doing that as of now.

    That's not griefing, that's just being smart.
    In many many occasions I killed much stronger people using this and I looted them and it felt good.

    I ambushed them in that way because I was punching up, I was the smart hero fighting bigger people using any means I can to overpower them.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    Depraved wrote: »
    ehh griefing is the carebear's excuse to not pvp ;D

    ok being serious, griefing probably exists when you grab a high level alt with nothing of value and perma pk lowbies. if you did it with u rmain, at least there would be a risk involved, but no risk on doing it with ur alt with nothing of value on.

    1- mob dropping is a strategy. if im fighting someone stronger, id run to him with a train of mobs then fake death next to him or wait for him to aoe pull, now the mobs are attacking him and im also attacking him. either the mobs or i will kill him. this is also a very effective way to kill bots without incurring corruption. hell this is even a strategy in games like LoL, where the better player will bait his opponent to hit him near his allied minions so that they hit him, or look for fights near them. so is that griefing then because im having the mobs help me kill my enemy?
    and i mean, lets be honest, if u see a dude running towards u with 20 dragons behind him, u could literally just run a bit till the mobs kill him or reset, or u could just stun/root him so the mobs kill him. if you die to mob dropping its literally ur fault.

    2- karma bombing what? i mean im not forcing u to go red...i hate gathering and crafting but some people love it, they do it over pvp. so how does a miner or a lumberjack (unless he has a chainsaw) has any chance of defeating a soldier with 10+ years of experience? its not happening. some people just wanna chop trees or mine iron and dont want to pvp. the pve hero has no chance of winning that fight, so why would he flag? as the pvper, if i wanna chop trees and someone is already taking the nodes, i can either find another spot or go red. thats not griefing at all

    A 1: yes, in many cases I killed much stronger people by doing that, doing this is just being smart, that's not griefing that's being smart

    A 2: who cares if the pve guy doesn't want to fight? He can very well join a guild that has pvpers, he can work with other people and gather intel, he can have a scout alt, he can be aware of his surrondings... If you die for a stronger players you are just being a poor player


    Griefing only exists when there's no counters, that's why almost never PVP griefing exists but PVE griefing is quite a thing in many games.

    What people call PVP griefing in most cases is just whinning, because at the same time players can kill you players can also save you.
    Just don't play the same way as if you are in a single player, reaching out other people solves a lot of stuff.

    No more playing games as if it was a single player game with a lobby.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Ramirez wrote: »
    VelRathis wrote: »
    This is a really important issue. Casual and crafting based players loosing materials to undesired and uninitiated PVP results in one thing alone, they quit the game and it becomes an Archage Style Griefing Fest that only Griefers want to play (really bad for your system design and business model).

    How about this, in Beta run a server that works as you intend, and another one with a `you have to flag for PVP' in order to be able to be attacked and see which one is more popular.

    Forced PVP and rewards for this kind of activity really concerns me. This and the Need/Greed loot system are archaic mistakes of the past from an MMO perspective and I honestly thought devs and system designers had learned those lessons.

    Thats cute if you think Crafters and gatheres are always casual players... Try games like Albion or Eve or go watch about the Cartels um this games where guilds of crafters Control the game

    Yes!

    In EVE online the carebears mine with literally 15-20 accounts while completely afk for hours.
    Then they get rich, they dominate the market, they pay mercenaries, they make alts for killing you.

    It's eye openning studying what goes in EVE Online behind the curtains because we can see the raw human behaviour there.

    Most carebear alts are just a front, they belong to rich people, belong to pirates, belong to gankers.... all those carebear alts syphon the money to the real alt who runs the dirty business.

    Assymetric war is the only solution sometimes.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    Ordeskii wrote: »
    I do not know exactly how the teams will be set up in arenas vs battle grounds vs sieges, but were there already discussions of allied griefing? Your ally going AFK, avoiding the objective, or intentionally feeding the enemy kills. Not to say that it needs to be policed, I just have not seen much mention of ally interactions yet. I might have missed it though, I admittedly only skimmed through the posts. Honestly, it might even be inherently dealt with depending on how each event works. If you enter into arenas in pre-made parties, you pick your teammates vs battle grounds are supposed to be random vs maybe it is an intended mechanic of sieges where something like buying off the enemy is a viable strategy.

    Arenas in all games, I played as much as I could in as many games as I could.
    Arenas just become a grind with broken metas being builds or gear.

    Plus afk allies is a thing, when games like Guild Wars 2 added rewards for just being in the team then sometimes there's 4 afk out of 5 in the team.

    True story, sometimes the only afk guy begs us to let him kill one of us so he can get his daily bonus... yes we let him kill us a few times so he get his bonus. It's just sad the state of arenas in all games, this is why I want some PVP everywhere because we can't rely on arenas.

    My message is this: people just need counters, if there's counters then griefing doesn't exist

    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • DeadlyDave wrote: »
    Come on it's pretty funny to one shot a newbie, but lets be fair constant griefing players is a waste of time.

    The only progression is the satisfaction of the griefer knowing he's making the other players life a misery.

    This should not be tolerated, as long as you give the players the necessary tools, im sure the community should be able to police this aspect. Word travels fast
    Griefers should have a bounty on their heads, drop their weapon on death, not allowed to trade with players or NPC's, loss xp ....etc

    Which happens almost never, almost never you go to the newbie area and one shots newbies and escape alive, almost always a guy as big as you will show up and kill you.

    PVPers can obstruct your path, but they can also save you... player driven content is the key!
    Ally people who matter, make friends who matter, join a guild that has PVPers or bring PVPers to your guild.

    Stop playing MMOs as if its a single player with a lobby, the same people who can kill you can also be your friend and work together with you.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    Phyragos wrote: »
    I think it's a case of playing the game how you want to play vs playing how it's made. If a game has a PVE story, then there will be players who just want to do that and not want/have to PVP. Being able to disable PVP, much like being able to ignore a player, would likely stop most types of grief. Then it's often just down to hoarding resources (which includes mobs). Even hoarding can be reduced by increasing spawn rates with specific rules (such as depending on the number of players nearby or depending on the speed of resource collection/destruction) or allowing multi-tapping of a resource. It all depends on what experience the design is aiming at.
    I personally leave PVP off in games given the option because I don't have the time to acquire the skills or gear to give me a fighting chance, though it's not too bad if I am left alone if I run away but still, if i can't play the PVE aspect of a game, I don't play that game.

    Nobody cares what other people want, everybody just think with their own stomachs.

    People just need ways to counter others and ways to ally others, you will be fine.
    Then if you die it's your fault, if you die with all the tools in your hands it's your fault.

    Bring PVPers to your guild and you will be fine and they will love fighting for you, reward them for it.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    I reserve the term "griefing" for situations outside of intended gameplay loops. Killing players repeatedly within a guild war or killing pve farmers in an enemy node are all situations within the intended gameplay loops of Ashes.

    There's a lot of PVE griefing, just look at Minecraft griefing, Factorio griefing, World of Warcraft dungeon locking and many others.

    But saying "outside of intended gameplay" is a good way to put it.

    In PVP there's barely no griefing, but PVE has a lot of griefing because there's no counters for it.
    In PVP it's just a fight, simple as that, PVP has it's counters and if you die it's because you are bad.

    I wonder when a horde of green griefers band together what will happen if they decide to hide behind the wall of the Corruption system.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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