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Quandary of the End Game

skafftarussskafftaruss Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The problem with modern games is a race to the top. I became addicted with Everquest. A grind to get level for level. It took years to get to level 50. And now designers are racing to the top - The End Game. Hence you left three quarters of the fan base behind. Why are we even talking about an end game. It makes me think the release is the end game, no expansions, no longevity. Just a release so Steven can sell a prototype and not pay back the minions? What happened to MMORPG? <3

Comments

  • I don't even understand what your post is trying to communicate. Who was talking about end game in a way that upset you?
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 2022
    This link from the wiki is all you need to know, @skafftaruss ... since it is unlikely to change much before launch.

    Good thing for you is that "the race to end game" is measured in a few short weeks (and not years).

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling

    - The level cap at launch is expected to be approximately level 50.[7]
    - The developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if you play roughly 4-6 hours per day.[8][9]
  • I'm glad the time to level has been slowly decreasing as mmos' mature, so many people that pickup the game a year or two later just feel too far behind, hence the instant level mechanics required to even out the player base.

    Steven will need to get his money back but he sure seems to be holding off from releasing early, if it was just about a money grab we would all be playing with a quarter of the base game and paying a sub.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    In most games, getting to max level is just the start of the grind. For example, I play Secret World Legends and I got to max level in a couple of months, and I've been grinding for years since then trying to upgrade my equipment to the max quality. I can't even do the top end game content yet.

    Gear is the real leveling in MMOs now.
     
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ashes doesn't have an end game, so I dunno why we're talking about it.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    Ashes doesn't have an end game, so I dunno why we're talking about it.

    As long as max level is a requirement for the highest forms of content, I don't think you can remove the concept of endgame. You can say there is no endgame but if people need to level to max to fully unlock the game, people will still play it as such.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Max character level is not the same thing as end game.
    And it's not max character level that fully unlocks the game - if it's even possible to fully unlock the game in Ashes.
    You'd have to take each Node to Metropolis with every racial variant to come close to that.
    And, then you'd also have to factor in social org progression.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Max character level is not the same thing as end game.
    And it's not max character level that fully unlocks the game - if it's even possible to fully unlock the game in Ashes.
    You'd have to take each Node to Metropolis with every racial variant to come close to that.
    And, then you'd also have to factor in social org progression.

    This is going to become kind of semantical but I'm going to say false. Just because content becomes available due to a node progression, doesn't mean you can do it if you don't meet it's level requirements. In a since, it's still locked for you because of your level. You will need to be max level to do all content that can be unlocked in the game due to node progression.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    Max character level is not the same thing as end game.
    And it's not max character level that fully unlocks the game - if it's even possible to fully unlock the game in Ashes.
    You'd have to take each Node to Metropolis with every racial variant to come close to that.
    And, then you'd also have to factor in social org progression.

    This is going to become kind of semantical but I'm going to say false. Just because content becomes available due to a node progression, doesn't mean you can do it if you don't meet it's level requirements. In a since, it's still locked for you because of your level. You will need to be max level to do all content that can be unlocked in the game due to node progression.

    This is the definition of end game to everyone in the MMO space other than Dygz.

    If there is level 55 content, and you realistically need to be level 50 to take that content on, then that content is end game content.

    That content may be gone next week due to node status shifting, but as another metropolis is leveled up, there will be more level 55 content, that will then be end game content.

    Dygz seems to think of end game content as being a singular point that is at the end - a concept which straight up doesn't exist in any MMO. To everyone else, end game content is any content you realistically need to be at the level cap to participate in, yet where you participate in it with an eye towards some other form of progression.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2022
    This is going to become kind of semantical but I'm going to say false. Just because content becomes available due to a node progression, doesn't mean you can do it if you don't meet it's level requirements. In a since, it's still locked for you because of your level. You will need to be max level to do all content that can be unlocked in the game due to node progression.
    That's a complete non-sequitor.
    Reaching max character level does not mean you have fully unlocked the game
    It doesn't mean you have reached end game, it just means you have reached max character level.

    At max character level, we will still be focused on maxing other forms of progression.
    And, since, Nodes rise and fall, we will never be done with Node progression.
    Character progression may end for a while but Node progression is never-ending.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    It doesn't mean you have reached end game, it just means you have reached max character level.
    These two things are the same thing though.

    "End game" is not some specific point where the game ends. It is the point where you switch from progression via leveling, to progression via other means.

    By definition, if you can no longer progress via level, but are still able to progress at all, you are in the end game. You are not at the end of the game, you are in the end game.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    I only care about Tulnar as an indicator of say/do ratio by IS. If the game is delivered as expected, but with Tulnar excised to an expac, it wouldn't bother me.
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  • My opinion is that Intrepid should have a second UE with land to expand with a release. That release like Tulnar - Kunark (of Everquest). Why not have UE not only have an expanse - yet another expanse while zoning. Save Tulnar for an exciting expansion. What think you. Skaff.

    From what I gather from following Steven's statements both according to Wiki and according to streams - It's a bit too late to do that now.

    From what I extract - A not small part of Ashes' world is already created. Which means a part of the dungeons, zones and continents themselves are already built on a let's say alpha virtual level. This means it's already here on some virtual physical level which means the work has already been done.

    To make Tulnar and Underrealm into an expansion now means to CUT some(big or small) part of all the already built world away and set it aside for later. This creates a problem because cutting the content creates work. Replacing that content with new content again creates work. If they don't replace the content they'll still have to fill those places with ground, trees etc. and add mobs which again creates work.

    So it's too late to do that in the sense that it won't reduce the time to release the game and also it'll actually create even more work because to release the Tulnar in an expansion means they'll have to
    1. re-add the cut content
    2. introduce it with quests, cinematics or something that explain how it came to be all of a sudden that Tulnar now popped up and all of a sudden holes leading to the underrealm came to being in the world.
    3. Also improve upon and expand all of this content in order for the content to be expansion-worthy(aka content which wont dissatisfy consumers when they have to pay lets say 80$ for the base game and then another 80$ for the expansion)
  • As long as max level is a requirement for the highest forms of content, I don't think you can remove the concept of endgame. You can say there is no endgame but if people need to level to max to fully unlock the game, people will still play it as such.

    I don't remember hearing anyone say the top tier content is locked behind max level. I would love a situation where you dont need a full raid of max level people, but like level 40+ or whatever. With the time it will take to level up, I would like character power and gear to not be locked behind character levels.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    McShave wrote: »
    I would like character power and gear to not be locked behind character levels.
    Then what is the point in levels?

  • Noaani wrote: »
    McShave wrote: »
    I would like character power and gear to not be locked behind character levels.
    Then what is the point in levels?

    minor stat increases. this goes back to my no character level argument where every playstyle has their own leveling tree. combat level, artisan level, religious level, etc.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    McShave wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    McShave wrote: »
    I would like character power and gear to not be locked behind character levels.
    Then what is the point in levels?

    minor stat increases.

    So, no point at all in levels then.

    Having individual leveling paths for combat and crafting is fairly normal in an MMO. Religion won't have enough content to warrantits own leveling path (it isn't a playstyle in and of itself). Naval content, however, will likely have its own leveling path.

    I fail to see any connection at all with different playstyles having their own progression paths, and combat progression being neutered which is what you are suggesting should happen.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2022
    For the most part, you have to be max level to do max level content, but max level content is not inherently the same thing as endgame.
    Endgame is when there is no new content to experience - beyond BiS gear acquisition - and you're stuck repeating the same content while waiting months and years for the devs to add new content. That typically corresponds with reaching max adventurer level.
    But, that's not what happens in Ashes.

    Racing to the top doesn't really mean much when your Nodes can be razed to Stage 0 and other Religions, Social Orgs and Races can be bumped from the top.
    You have to get your Node Type and Race to max progression in order to fully unlock the content you're hoping for - and there's no guarantee that will possible... just because you reach max adventurer level does not mean you will be on a server that unlocks Fast Travel. Reaching max level adventurer does not mean that you will be on a server that unlocks Empyrean Metro perks and quests. Certainly doesn't guarantee that you will be on a server before the next expansion.

    Should be fine for the devs to go with horizontal expansion rather than vertical expansion.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Endgame is when there is no new content to experience - beyond gear acquisition - and you're stuck repeating the same while waiting months and years for the devs to add new content.
    No it isn't.

    If this were the case, most games would only ever see <5% of players reach end game.

    Very few players get to the hardest encounter of a content cycle before the start of the next cycle - and by your definition you haven't reached end game until you have killed that hardest encounter.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2022
    The major key to keeping max adventurer level players for Ashes is the rise and fall of Nodes.
    And the minor keys are Social Org progression and Religious progression and Artisan progression.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    The major key to keeping max adventurer level players for Ashes is the rise and fall of Nodes.
    And the minor keys are Social Org progression and Religious progression and Artisan progression.

    What about combat progression - the one everyone cares about?

    If nodes are the system Intrepid plan to rely on to keep max level players in the game, the game will fail.

    As soon as a player is in a metropolis with the buildings built that they want (which is likely to be within months of launch), they have nothing left to gain.

    This means the only thing they have left to do in the game in relation to the one system the developers have to try and keep them in the game is to fight to maintain what they have, and then work at regaining what they once had when they inevitably lose a siege.

    That is not compelling gameplay.

    Ashes needs to have combat progression as the primary means of player retention - just as every other MMO. Nodes can be a secondary system to keep players interested and break up some of the primary focus - but not really much more.

    Crafting and naval content are tertiary. Religion and social organizations are incidental content that exist for interest, intrigue and individuality, but not as a player retention system.
  • CawwCaww Member
    EVE does not seem to have a problem with end game and I doubt AoC will either once the servers are properly populated and the game play fine-tuned. The collective swarm of people playing will keep the ball rolling for a lot of people that want PvX, maybe some PvPers' move on once that aspect of the world stales out, it it does.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Caww wrote: »
    EVE does not seem to have a problem with end game and I doubt AoC will either once the servers are properly populated and the game play fine-tuned. The collective swarm of people playing will keep the ball rolling for a lot of people that want PvX, maybe some PvPers' move on once that aspect of the world stales out, it it does.
    If Ashes has anything close to the amount of personal progression that EVE has, I agree.
  • McShave wrote: »
    As long as max level is a requirement for the highest forms of content, I don't think you can remove the concept of endgame. You can say there is no endgame but if people need to level to max to fully unlock the game, people will still play it as such.

    I don't remember hearing anyone say the top tier content is locked behind max level. I would love a situation where you dont need a full raid of max level people, but like level 40+ or whatever. With the time it will take to level up, I would like character power and gear to not be locked behind character levels.

    I've actually thought about something for a few
    Noaani wrote: »
    Caww wrote: »
    EVE does not seem to have a problem with end game and I doubt AoC will either once the servers are properly populated and the game play fine-tuned. The collective swarm of people playing will keep the ball rolling for a lot of people that want PvX, maybe some PvPers' move on once that aspect of the world stales out, it it does.
    If Ashes has anything close to the amount of personal progression that EVE has, I agree.

    From what Steven says and what is written in Wikis - Ashes will have more personal progression than any MMO ever.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Birthday wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Caww wrote: »
    EVE does not seem to have a problem with end game and I doubt AoC will either once the servers are properly populated and the game play fine-tuned. The collective swarm of people playing will keep the ball rolling for a lot of people that want PvX, maybe some PvPers' move on once that aspect of the world stales out, it it does.
    If Ashes has anything close to the amount of personal progression that EVE has, I agree.

    From what Steven says and what is written in Wikis - Ashes will have more personal progression than any MMO ever.

    I'd be somewhat interested to hear what has been said to give you this impression.

    Ashes has a good amount of customization (secondary class, skill selection, skill point allocation, augment selection etc), and there will be an amount of gear progression, but there is no indication at all that there will be as much actual individual character progression most other MMO's.

    Even things like religion and social organizations basically just come down to adding options to your augments.
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