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healer balance thoughts-pvp

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Comments

  • GoalidGoalid Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Sorry bro.... Balancing is group focused 😂😂

    There still needs to be some balance for self-heals. Nobody wants healers to be able to 1v5, except maybe healers...
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  • GoalidGoalid Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    I don't like that idea at all, @mcstackerson . What it essentially does is make healers a lot less necessary. Healing is one of the archetypes and we need them to be needed in the game.

    Eh? In New World you still needed a healer even though it had active blocking. You just balance the stamina bar so a tank can't block all incoming damage, and then healer's are still relevant.
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  • HasilHasil Member, Settler, Kickstarter
    Jahlon wrote: »
    So, food for thought here.

    Everyone is always concerned with "Who beats who" at max level.

    The truth is, at max level, factoring in equal gear AND equal skill (i.e. super computers who make mistakes less than 3 times in a million opportunities) nobody should win a 1vs1, it should be a stalemate.

    The tank and the healer look at each other and say "are we really doing this"?
    The tank and the damage dealer both know, the DD can't outpace mitigation, and tank shouldn't have enough CC to contain the DD when he tries to juke and away.

    And the Damage Dealer again should not be able to burn down a healer, but the healer should not be able to pursue the damage dealer when he tries to escape and disengage.

    I generally agree what you said. So many games try to balance 1v1s and end up entirely messing up the meta-game.

    An exception to the stalemate scenarios might be stealthers. When attacking from stealth, a stealth class should be able to kill squishy targets if they hit their combos/attacks. If they miss them, they die. If they attack a tank from stealth, they probably die.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Ashes is already designed with the idea that Clerics should not have to "constantly recover large amounts of health"... especially not as the Tank gets chunked.
    Also, it's Cleric that is the Primary Archetype; not healer.

    So...mcstackerson is on point and not saying anything controversial about Ashes game design.

    And the Cleric is one of two possible healers, right?

    Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
    Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.
  • KesyntanthKesyntanth Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The concern I have with balancing is more general than specific. If you try to balancing everything to the lowest common denominator, it often becomes incredibly boring.

    I've played plenty of games that were "group balanced". For one, that was never true, since there were always character builds that were vastly meta (and clumsily overnerfed afterward). And two, the expression of that ideal came down to a ton of sparkle fests with few meaningful ways to play your character at the next level.

    One is pretty self explanatory. It's the default run of the theme park used to keep player retention up. Because, let's be honest, the average player doesn't know boss fights, pvp strats, and often even how their characters work. They'll drop into a dungeon, instanced battleground or event and just try to wing it and/or hope to get carried.

    Ironically, they're the first ones to complain when they get destroyed by a decent player. Let's be honest though, that's how they live their lives. It's not like their in game or IRL persona is going to be changed by a good smackdown or two.

    Nah, they'll just have a midlife crisis at 40 like everyone else. Becoming either creepy old guy in a cheap Porsche or the Karen yelling at the McDonalds cashier while her special child is running in circles screaming.

    Don't do drugs kids. Anyway...

    The second one demands a little explanation. There have been a few games that rewarded next level play in the past, unfortunately they almost always had too many sins to survive the MMO market. Warhammer: Age of Reckoning was a good example of that. For nearly all of the classes, if you were skilled, you could pull off some legendary plays. Group, solo, skirmish, siege, whatever. There were metas, but, even the non meta builds could do some really interesting things. You never really knew what you were dealing with until the fighting started.

    It was fun gameplay. It was unique and exciting. You didn't know everything about your opponent at a glance. It kept it fresh. Even after memorizing the tells (gear, auras, sparklies), you still would have to see the first few attacks before you were sure.

    There are other example, better and worse, but, that was the first one that came to mind. It doesn't help that a lot of the examples are also either too old or too niche to be relevant now.

    Point being, I would rather have the combat varied and interesting. I would like the various character builds to have unique features that keep it fun. A cleric/fighter should feel different than a cleric/mage versus a cleric/ranger. There's always going to be a meta, a best in slot, but, that doesn't mean all the other options have to suck or be made flat and boring by heavy-handed mechanics.

    Kind of turned into a rant, but, I used to love playing healers. It's been a long time since any of them were fun, though. In a lot of games, the "fun" healers if they existed at all were all hybrids. Full healers were just heal bitches. Stand in the back line, make the uwuwu sound and make the green bars go up. Occasionally you have to cleanse and clear dots, but, other than that it's: You will wear the dress, say the uwu and like it!

    No wonder they're all instant queue on every mmo on the planet.

    It's because healers are fucking boring and they don't have to be.

    So yeah... /rant
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2022
    pyreal wrote: »
    Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
    Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.
    Since Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype, it's more likely that people will LFG for Cleric.
    Just as they will LFG for Mage and Rogue. Rather than LFG for DPS.

    Not that what people LFG for matters within the context of this discussion. LFG s irrelevant.

  • Goalid wrote: »
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Sorry bro.... Balancing is group focused 😂😂

    There still needs to be some balance for self-heals. Nobody wants healers to be able to 1v5, except maybe healers...

    That's not going to be possible if group dynamics is well balanced
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    pyreal wrote: »
    Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
    Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.
    Since Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype, it's more likely that people will LFG for Cleric.
    Just as they will LFG for Mage and Rogue. Rather than LFG for DPS.

    Not that what people LFG for matters within the context of this discussion. LFG s irrelevant.

    Tree: Healers will be called healers, regardless of their archetype.

    Forest: We're not talking about LFG, just correcting people on archetype/class/role labeling, courtesy of Dygz.

    /e rolls his eyes
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think you need the nerve self-healing to maintain any kind of balance.
    If they're going for a rock paper scissors approach certain classes could have abilities that negate or reduce self-healing capability.
    For example a rogue could have a poison that reduces incoming healing by 50% for the next 10 seconds. That could tip fight favor of the rogue.

    But self heal builds in every game are always the hardest to balance, they're usually OP or nerfed to hell...
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?

    Excellent question! Next time I'm in the forest telling dad jokes I'll find out for you.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?

    I bet a potato could, especially if it was at the top of a slope on a breezy day.
     
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  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2022
    Atama wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?

    I bet a potato could, especially if it was at the top of a slope on a breezy day.

    Excellent.

    I'm glad you helped answer his question because I don't often go to the forest. Its something about those trees... they always seem shady to me.

  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    pyreal wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?

    I bet a potato could, especially if it was at the top of a slope on a breezy day.

    Excellent.

    I'm glad you helped answer his question because I don't often go to the forest. Its something about those trees... they always seem shady to me.

    It will be ok. They are all bark and no bite.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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