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Fighter attacks.... the case for no critical damage

George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
For me fighter or warrior is one of the "cool" classes in every mmo.
I like its potential for solo PvE up to mid tier. I like the fact that it isn't a BiS for PvE dps, which means that guilds want fighters for something more than filling the raid slots.

In PvP, fighters are mostly seen as the solid damage dealer that doesnt have to back down like rogues. It's the class that is in the thick of the fight besides the tank and the bards.
Fighters are also one of the best 1v1 classes if spected for the purpose of being a duelist.

In addition to the above, a variety of melee weapons is often found at the hands of the fighter/warrior/berserker class, which is perfect for those that like to experiment with weapons.

Now... about the title of the topic.

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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2022
    I began my mmos with the Gladiator of Line][Age, a melee class using 2 swords but during the most recent years the best gladiators use one hand hammer and shield.

    The gladiator class had an interesting course regarding its success in PvP. It started as absolute rubbish, became good in the hands of the skilled and then unfortunatly became if not the most overpowered, one of them.

    Before the class became overpowered, I was still playing L2, and having reached mid to high lv, having completed my gear set for the foreseeable future, I loved to spend my time antagonizing every other gladiator in the server.
    The duels were such a rush of adrenaline.

    How about that topic title...?
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2022
    I would like to propose to Intrepid, that the Fighter class has the unique feature of not being able to land critical strikes.

    Why? For the glory of being the most skilled, without random criticals giving a fighter a cheap victory, or costing them the match.

    Before the Gladiator became an OP class, its skills did not have critical chance. They were strong, yes, but not as strong as the assassin classes (Abyss Walker/Treasure Hunter).

    One of my best friends was also playing a gladiator and we would duel all in our spare time. As soon as the critical hits were introduced to the abilties of our class we never dueled again.
    The winning factor, from perfection, became fluke of luck.

    So this is my proposal for the class. Let those that take pride in full-on, melee combat, battle it out to gain renown. Let the fighter class deal no critical damage with its abilities.

    Perhaps the fighter/rogue could be the only Fighter class to be able to deal critical damage.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The winning factor, from perfection, became fluke of luck.
    Sounds to me like a shit game that just made crits too random, but also too powerful.

    IMO every class should have an option to not have crits, a tradeoff of some sort. However, using them properly is a skill in and of itself - assuming a game implements them in a way that allows them to be used with player skill.

    There are a number of mechanics that have been put to use in various games that allow the use of player skill in relation to crits - one game I played (I don't even remember which MMO it was) essentially had an increasing chance of each attack dealing critical damage, resetting when you dealt that crit. This meant players could hold off attacks with higher crit multipliers, or just bigger hitting attacks, until they had a good chance of dealing that crit with it.

    This kind of thing takes real skill. The winner of the fight is still likely to be the one that gets the best crit hit, but the best player will get the best crit hit.

    So, while having the ability to not have crits should be a build option, crits should also not just be some random mechanic that is dumped in to a game.
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    hleVhleV Member
    edited February 2022
    Gear in New World can have Resilient perk which reduces crit damage %. Stack it enough and your crits are the same as normal hits. Perhaps AoC could use some sort of crit damage reduction in PvP, though I wouldn't want that to be just "PvP scaling" but rather something to craft/grind/work for.
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    I think that keeping crit as a stat would be my preferred option. Having an array of secondary stats that have different purposes, i.e. thinking to WoW you had haste buffing attack speed and dot tick speed, crit as you would expect, mastery for a special component unique to a class spec. Other games such as GW2 use condition damage (dot damage). I think that allowing people to experiment with different builds create alot of diversity and the real balancing act is dealing with the extremes on either end to try and keep as many builds "competitive" but at least keeping them all relevant enough to tackle most content.

    I also agree with the defense stat options which can be a blanket "pvp" stat such as resilience, or maybe we split off the stats a bit. Resilience could provide dmg reduction and a secondary effect. Reduced crit taken, reduces dot taken, increased healing received. This would also have to be balanced against weighing up if you want to go more glass cannon, tanky or a composite of both.

    I don't want it to necessarily be over-complicated, but I do think that giving flexible options like this could be nice.
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    FisherFisher Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I could see there being a cooldown for this purpose, but a permanent feature of not critically hitting sounds like a bad idea. Realistically, even the most skilled fighters sometimes get lucky.
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    mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 2022
    I prefer there being a variety of builds and i see crit builds as a good option.

    I wouldn't want to force fighters to take rogue secondary for the option to crit but i would want there to be other stats fighters can build towards to do damage.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't know if Weapon Skills and similar things will require any buildup of a gauge, in Ashes. I hope they do for balance reasons, but either way, I think that weighing Crit Rate against either the damage or frequency of Weapon Skills and certain other attacks is good as balance here.

    Then you could build gear that explicitly lowers or negates your crit chance but raises your damage floor. Even if it serves no other purpose and isn't 'meta', it'd be good for cool gladiator duels, to know that both players are just wearing full 'negate my own crit for other damage or defense' gear and then it results in pure skill as George says.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    edited February 2022
    Straight up limiting an entire archtype to a playstyle just seems unreasonable, such playstyle would be way better implemented and make way more sense as a character build choice, through methods such as sacrificing critical chance as a trade-off for more raw skill damage like in @Azherae idea and not as a base class mechanic.
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    Aren't we all sinners?
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think the bigger problem is in thinking that it's the crits of the Primary Archetype that will be critical.

    Crits will likely be stats on weapons - and any class can use any weapon.
    Also, it's likely that Secondary Archetype augments will include crits. Racial, Religious and Social Org augments might also include crits - especially Rogue augments.
    Node augments might also include crits - especially Military Node augments.
    And, it could even be that certain Races have crits as a Racial perk.

    So... designing Fighter to not have crits seems moot. Opponents who are Fighter/x will still be able to find ways to include crits in their builds. While individuals who want the glory of wins without using crits may still find a way to achieve that glory. Especially if you find a consistent R/P/S counter for crits.
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    FisherFisher Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Crit will be a stat, most likely, so I'm not sure what you mean by it being a secondary archetype augment. Choosing to augment your abilities with another archetype will not make it able to crit, it might make it more likely to crit. Or, more accurately based on the info we have, it'll change the damage type and the way the ability functions, e.g. instant teleport instead of charge.

    If the Fighter archetype is entirely unable to critically strike regardless of any ability choice you make, then your secondary augments will not change that because you are a Fighter first and foremost.

    If you want to build your character to just not rely on critical hits, do that. Don't take gear that has crit, don't be a race that gives a crit bonus, etc. There's no reason to limit the archetype to not being able to crit just because one person has some nostalgia about dueling in a different MMO.

    Or make it an ability, either a cooldown or a toggled "stance" that disables criticals for some other benefit, such as a flat increase to damage by half your crit chance, or something like that.
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    HasilHasil Member, Settler, Kickstarter
    Tying crits to particular abilities, limited-time buffs, or positioning (flanking, behind) can help to limit their impact but still make them a viable and tactical part of the game.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 2022
    Fisher wrote: »
    Crit will be a stat, most likely, so I'm not sure what you mean by it being a secondary archetype augment. Choosing to augment your abilities with another archetype will not make it able to crit, it might make it more likely to crit. Or, more accurately based on the info we have, it'll change the damage type and the way the ability functions, e.g. instant teleport instead of charge.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r701cyS3w6o&t=3644s
    mark: 1:00:44


    QUESTION: How much of an impact will an archetype's secondary attributes have on Active Skills? More specifically, What changes about a skill once a Secondary Class is applied, beyond an additional effect? Will there be cool-down or cast-time modifiers? Range or AoE differences, etc.?

    JEFFEREY: Short answer is, "Yes."

    STEVEN: The key of the Augment System is that these augments are meant to demonstrate a core identity of the Secondary Class type you've chosen. From the eight Archetypes, whatever you choose as your secondary, you're going to receive a choice of augments that relates to some core ideal of that class:
    A Tank is about controlling the battlefield and is about surviving.
    A Mage is about dealing damage and the elements and mobility and AoEs.
    A Rogue is going to be about stealth and critical damage.
    So...those augments are going to play towards those identities.
    So, will those identities include things like cool-downs? Yes. They will.
    Will they include things like different mana consumptions? Yes.
    Will they include the general functionality of a particular skill? Yes.
    Entirely. It could.




    Fisher wrote: »
    If the Fighter archetype is entirely unable to critically strike regardless of any ability choice you make, then your secondary augments will not change that because you are a Fighter first and foremost.
    Frankly, I don't understand how you think augments are intended to work.
    Of course, you should expect that a Fighter/Rogue will have the ability to place some form of burst damage/crit augment from one of the 4 Rogue Augment Schools on Fighter Active Skills.
    Just as x/Mage can use some form of Teleport augment, expect an x/Rogue to be able to use some form of Backstab augment.

    The Fighter Primary Archetype is not going to be designed to be unable to critically strike regardless of any choice you make. Just as there won't be a Primary Archetype designed to be unable to Teleport regardless of any choice you make.
    It's possible that the Fighter Primary Archetype might be designed to have no Active Skills which include crits. But, even that is unlikely.
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    FisherFisher Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Frankly, I don't understand how you think augments are intended to work.
    Of course, you should expect that a Fighter/Rogue will have the ability to place some form of burst damage/crit augment from one of the 4 Rogue Augment Schools on Fighter Active Skills.
    The way that is worded implies that you're focusing on critical damage, not enabling it. When the ability crits, it deals extra damage, or applies an extra effect like a bleed or a stun or something like that.

    What the OP is suggesting is that Fighter, as an archetype, is unable to crit. So if you pick a primary archetype that is unable to crit, picking a secondary archetype's augments that focuses on critical damage will be useless to you.

    In the event that augments do take an archetype that cannot crit and make its abilities able to crit, then the OP's suggestion is rendered invalid, anyway. Unless, by "Fighter" he actually meant Weapon Master.
    Dygz wrote: »
    The Fighter Primary Archetype is not going to be designed to be unable to critically strike regardless of any choice you make.
    That is what the OP is suggesting be done, though.
    I would like to propose to Intrepid, that the Fighter class has the unique feature of not being able to land critical strikes.

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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 2022
    What you inferred may be different than what George_Black implied.
    I hope you're wrong. I hope George_Black understands Ashes game philosophy well enough to know that the suggestion for Fighter to be unable to crit regardless of what other choices you make is absurd.
    I hope by saying he wants Fighter to have the unique feature of being unable to land critical strikes and "let the fighter class deal no critical damage with its abilities" - what George_Black was actually suggesting is for Fighter to be designed to have no Active Skills that include crits.

    In Ashes, any class can wear any gear and wield any weapon. The whole point of Secondary Archetypes is so that players can choose to enjoy aspects of the core identity of an archetype different than their Primary Archetype.
    It makes absolutely no sense that the devs would decide - "Oh. Except for Fighter. If you choose Fighter as your Primary Archetype, you will never be able to land a crit, no matter what other choices you make. Even if you choose Rogue as your Secondary Archetype."

    Again, that's like saying, "I personally don't like combat where Bards can Teleport, so Bards should be designed such that they are unable to Teleport no matter what other choices you make. Even if you choose Mage as a Secondary Archetype."
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    FisherFisher Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I agree, it's not really a good idea to disable crits -- or any other quintessential combat element -- entirely for an archetype. As a temporary cooldown, a toggled stance, optional abilities, or an option for certain Fighter abilities, sure. Otherwise, no.
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    MoowellMoowell Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't think locking out critical hits by default is the way to go for any class for several reasons.

    1) Strictly removing options from a single archetype is against the spirit of the game when said game values player agency as a core design pillar. A better way to do it would be to have an augment that does something similar. Or a stance. Maybe a weapon specialization or a passive trait. Something that converts critical hit chance/damage stats to base damage. More likely though is gearing your character with sub-stats that improve your sustained damage instead of your critical hits. All of these methods allow for player agency, so players who value big bursts of damage can have their critical hits while players who value sustained damage can make the choice to have more consistency.

    2) Class balance hasn't been finalized yet. We don't know how strong they will be in PvP or PvE. We don't know what skills they will have. We don't know how they will stack up compared to the other damage dealers in solo or party play. All we truly know about them is that they are damage dealers and will fulfill their role as damage dealers.

    3) The journey of Lineage 2's gladiators has little bearing on how Ashes of Creations' fighters will turn out, except as an example of what happens when you add something to a class that wasn't designed to have it. If Ashes of Creation removes critical hits from fighters in the very beginning, they risk making the exact same mistake as Lineage 2 when players start to complain that fighters aren't getting those big bursty numbers.

    4) All classes can wear any gear. By removing critical hits from fighter classes, you make critical hit chance/damage on equipment useless to them. They will always be at a disadvantage compared to classes that can use those stats because their gear requirements are more specific. Dungeon or raid drops will need more specific stats to be as useful to them as to other classes, and crafters may have to spend more resources crafting specialized gear, depending on how randomized stat distribution will be on crafted gear. This can be mitigated if critical hit chance/damage can be directly converted to base damage as suggested in (1).

    P.S.: You don't need three posts to start talking about the topic, and you definitely don't need to say you're going to start talking about the topic, only to not start talking about the topic in the follow up post. It's not good forum etiquette to pad out your thread like that.
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Moowell wrote: »
    I don't think locking out critical hits by default is the way to go for any class for several reasons.

    1) Strictly removing options from a single archetype is against the spirit of the game when said game values player agency as a core design pillar. A better way to do it would be to have an augment that does something similar. Or a stance. Maybe a weapon specialization or a passive trait. Something that converts critical hit chance/damage stats to base damage. More likely though is gearing your character with sub-stats that improve your sustained damage instead of your critical hits. All of these methods allow for player agency, so players who value big bursts of damage can have their critical hits while players who value sustained damage can make the choice to have more consistency.

    2) Class balance hasn't been finalized yet. We don't know how strong they will be in PvP or PvE. We don't know what skills they will have. We don't know how they will stack up compared to the other damage dealers in solo or party play. All we truly know about them is that they are damage dealers and will fulfill their role as damage dealers.

    3) The journey of Lineage 2's gladiators has little bearing on how Ashes of Creations' fighters will turn out, except as an example of what happens when you add something to a class that wasn't designed to have it. If Ashes of Creation removes critical hits from fighters in the very beginning, they risk making the exact same mistake as Lineage 2 when players start to complain that fighters aren't getting those big bursty numbers.

    4) All classes can wear any gear. By removing critical hits from fighter classes, you make critical hit chance/damage on equipment useless to them. They will always be at a disadvantage compared to classes that can use those stats because their gear requirements are more specific. Dungeon or raid drops will need more specific stats to be as useful to them as to other classes, and crafters may have to spend more resources crafting specialized gear, depending on how randomized stat distribution will be on crafted gear. This can be mitigated if critical hit chance/damage can be directly converted to base damage as suggested in (1).

    P.S.: You don't need three posts to start talking about the topic, and you definitely don't need to say you're going to start talking about the topic, only to not start talking about the topic in the follow up post. It's not good forum etiquette to pad out your thread like that.

    I dont care for forum etiquette. Take your P.S. and shove it mate.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I find the choice of the one post you decided to reply to in this thread to be somewhat intriguing.
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    mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Not only that, he completely ignored the majority of the post that was relevant to the conversation he started.
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I read all the relevant posts. I even liked one that argues against the proposal.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Liking a post doesn't further a conversation.
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liking a post doesn't further a conversation.

    All I had to say was said.
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    JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I strongly prefer George's post format relative to the way George presents ideas. It makes it easier to agree and disagree with him in a nuanced way. I wish more people posted that way honestly. Better than walls of text.

    Fortunately for the community, not everyone has to 'respond to every point they disagree with' to enjoy a discussion. If that were a requirement the forums would be rather dumb and difficult to read through.
    Small print leads to large risks.
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    AsgerrAsgerr Member
    edited February 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liking a post doesn't further a conversation.

    All I had to say was said.

    So it wasn't a conversation but a three part soliloquy that didn't get to the point until the third entry? And then you told someone to shove it?

    Cool idea for a thread in the General DISCUSSION, section.
    You twat You genius.
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    Meh. Crits are fun. I say keep ‘em.
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